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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    I never hear it get talked about. A sorcerer 6 / paladin 4 / eldritch knight 10 career path seems to me like a potent* character choice. I think the character also has excellent solo play viability once the prestige class itself is entered. What do you think?

    (*potent doesn't necessarily mean 'the best', just good, maybe equivalent to a tier 2 class taken the whole way.)

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    It does seem useful for advancing spellcasting and BAB, but nowadays it seems there are better PrCs for that, mostly specializing in one or more schools. (It seems that 3.5 rewards specialization, so choose your poison, I guess.) Were I building a gish and needed higher than 5th level spells, I'd go with EK over Duskblade. But EK doesn't grant nearly as many bonus feats as it should.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    It's mostly because the EK is a very boring and kind of sloppy gish compared to things like Jade Phoenix Mage, the base Bard, Duskblade and Abjurant Champion. I mean, yeah, it does its job well. That's for sure. But it's basically there only to achieve the job of "spellcaster with high BAB", and not anything cool like "I backflip over you while invoking the wrath of the desert winds" or crap.


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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Because it has Eldritch in the name, yet is practically impossible (and possibly impractical) for a Warlock to PrC into it.
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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    It has recently come to my attention that there is a clear distinction between the description of Archmage/Loremaster Spellcasting advancement and Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster/Mystic Theurge Spellcasting advancement: where the Archmage and Loremaster explicitly state that they grant "Spells Known" upon level-up, the less-focused casting Prestige Classes do not.

    Because this distinction exists within a single book and appears follows an apparent pattern (classes focused on spellcasting fully advance; classes with several schticks do not), I believe the omission was fully intended by the writers.

    This means the Eldritch Knight has reached a new low in my eyes. It is a dead-end for Sorcerers and an at-best mediocre choice for Wizards. Without any "Spells Known" advancement, without class abilities, without full spellcasting, without decent Hit Points and without any redeeming fluff, the Eldritch Knight has no appeal left for me. Spellsword 2 and 3 are strictly superior to Eldritch Knight 1 and 2 and Ruathar and Sacred Exorcist both have easy entry and acceptable Gish framework.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    If your group plays with only the core 3 books or the SRD it is basically your only option for a potent gish. Ranger1/Wizard5/EK10/Archmage4 is in most cases better than a bard. It requires a mutable playstyle though.

    level 1 - play like a ranger
    levels 2-9 - play like a sorcerer and make use of your scrolls
    levels 10+ - spellcasting begins to catch up along with BAB.
    levels 14+ - Gish

    For a gish starting at level 1, you'll do better with a bard. For a game starting at higher levels, go with EK.

    If your group uses all the splatbooks, EK is really only good for filling out levels to finish out a better gish build.
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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Why be an Eldritch Knight, when you can be a Knight Phantom and get the same benefits, plus actual class features?

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    The biggest problem with Eldritch Knight isn't so much that new PrCs outclass.

    Instead, it's the fact that in general, a somewhat higher BAB does not come class to the fighting power that 9th level spells give you. While it is certainly feasible to have BOTH, you are almost certainly delaying your 9th level spells, and you're guaranteed to have less of them than someone who just stuck it out with straight Wizard.

    There are some neat things you can do that benefit a higher BAB, of course - Quickened True Strike (core) and Persistent Wraithstrike (non-Core) + Power Attack shenanigans can lead to some terrifying damage output. But that is still somewhat one-trick ponyish.

    But yeah, Abjurant Champion and others definitely kick the crap out of the EK.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax_Celestis View Post
    Why be an Eldritch Knight, when you can be a Knight Phantom and get the same benefits, plus actual class features?
    Pwned. Requires Still Spell, though, a feat that will be ultimately (Battle Caster + mithril full plate) useless to you.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles View Post
    The biggest problem with Eldritch Knight isn't so much that new PrCs outclass.

    Instead, it's the fact that in general, a somewhat higher BAB does not come class to the fighting power that 9th level spells give you. While it is certainly feasible to have BOTH, you are almost certainly delaying your 9th level spells, and you're guaranteed to have less of them than someone who just stuck it out with straight Wizard.

    There are some neat things you can do that benefit a higher BAB, of course - Quickened True Strike (core) and Persistent Wraithstrike (non-Core) + Power Attack shenanigans can lead to some terrifying damage output. But that is still somewhat one-trick ponyish.

    But yeah, Abjurant Champion and others definitely kick the crap out of the EK.
    Also, I repeat, it is boring!


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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    Pwned. Requires Still Spell, though, a feat that will be ultimately (Battle Caster + mithril full plate) useless to you.
    Only if you don't cast from horseback--which, considering that the Knight Phantom gets Ride as a class skill and has phantom steed as an SLA, you might well be doing a lot.

    But still. Nothing says pwnage quite like smiting vampiric touch delivered through a lance on a charge. Mmm. Tasty, tasty temporary hit points.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    From a non-optimized stand point, it bores me to tears. I want class features. It's bad enough my favorite class (Sorcerer) gets none because it's a full caster, (Except druids which not only get powerful class features but lots of flavorful ones), but now I'm really continuing the same progression for some extra bab oh and trading a caster level for a feat... (outside of requirements of course).

    The problem with Eldritch Knight really is that it's bland. It's a bit like an ice sculpture. It's solid, but it doesn't have much taste to it.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax_Celestis
    Why be an Eldritch Knight, when you can be a Knight Phantom and get the same benefits, plus actual class features?
    I did it for the two extra feats. For a feat-starved Gish, that means Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, Robilar's Gambit or Improved Trip access. I find all more useful than the KP bonuses.
    Last edited by Temp.; 2008-10-07 at 02:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temp. View Post
    It has recently come to my attention that there is a clear distinction between the description of Archmage/Loremaster Spellcasting advancement and Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster/Mystic Theurge Spellcasting advancement: where the Archmage and Loremaster explicitly state that they grant "Spells Known" upon level-up, the less-focused casting Prestige Classes do not.

    Because this distinction exists within a single book and appears follows an apparent pattern (classes focused on spellcasting fully advance; classes with several schticks do not), I believe the omission was fully intended by the writers.

    This means the Eldritch Knight has reached a new low in my eyes. It is a dead-end for Sorcerers and an at-best mediocre choice for Wizards. Without any "Spells Known" advancement, without class abilities, without full spellcasting, without decent Hit Points and without any redeeming fluff, the Eldritch Knight has no appeal left for me. Spellsword 2 and 3 are strictly superior to Eldritch Knight 1 and 2 and Ruathar and Sacred Exorcist both have easy entry and acceptable Gish framework.
    Dude, according to the SRD they all advance +1 level of existing class or some-such. Where are you getting this from???

    As others have said, prestige classes from other books will make a better gish, but if you don't have access to them, EK is just fine. You get your 9th level spells later, but if getting them early was your goal, you probably just wanted to be a wizard, and 7th and 8th level spellcasting is nothing to sneeze at.

    Interestingly, nobody seems to complain about the Duskblade's lack of 9th level spellcasting. Ek doesn't get all the goodies of the Duskblade, but the ability to eventually cast any 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells I want (even later than normal) is an equitable trade-off for me.
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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow
    Dude, according to the SRD they all advance +1 level of existing class or some-such. Where are you getting this from???
    The text in both the SRD and DMG, combined with the lack of errata.
    Last edited by Temp.; 2008-10-07 at 02:56 PM. Reason: Quotes. Then removing quotes. Then general confusion.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Whoa, nevermind...You're right, Sorcerers and Bards are screwed with Eldritch Knight.
    Last edited by Crow; 2008-10-07 at 02:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    According to d20srd.org:
    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.
    Source

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch Knight
    Spells per Day
    From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
    Source

    The DMG is the same.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Dude, under the class features it specifically states that you get spells per day and spells known (if applicable). Read the PrC's again. It is there.
    No, Temp's got a point. Reread that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage
    Originally Posted by Archmage
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.
    vs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch Knight
    Spells per Day
    From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    The NeverWinter Nights (1) games seem to agree with Temp. Unless the class said "And Spells Known" it was useless to Sorcerers, and luck based and expensive for Wizards.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Chill guys, I got edit ninja'd.
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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Why are you people arguing about RAW when it's obvious that by RAI, Eldritch Knight gets new spells the same way all caster PrCs do? Only with a 9/10 rate?
    Last edited by Tengu_temp; 2008-10-07 at 02:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp
    Why are you people arguing about RAW when it's obvious that by RAI, Eldritch Knight gets new spells the same way all caster PrCs do?
    Because this is a pattern in the DMG, I believe it is RAI.

    Archmage gets full spells known. Loremaster gets full spells known. Spellcasting is the one thing both of them do.

    Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge, on the other hand, do not get spells known. Thematically, I suppose they aren't as focused of spellcasters; I don't know.

    That what should have been a cut-and-paste job wasn't, that there were differences and that the differences follow discernable patterns tells me that this is a deliberate distinction.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    I think part of the concern is that it's not sure to be RAI since classes within the same book have. It's certainly Rules As Not Stupid, but...


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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temp. View Post
    Because this is a pattern in the DMG, I believe it is RAI.

    Archmage gets full spells known. Loremaster gets full spells known. Spellcasting is the one thing both of them do.

    Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge, on the other hand, do not get spells known. Thematically, I suppose they aren't as focused of spellcasters; I don't know.

    That what should have been a cut-and-paste job wasn't, that there were differences and that the differences follow discernable patterns tells me that this is a deliberate distinction.
    I doubt if they purposely written these classes as Useless For Spontaneous Casters. Probably they had two writers and one of each forgot to put the clause (because he still lives in the times when most RPG fans weren't RAWtards and they knew that you cannot take actions while dead, even if it isn't outright stated), or a similar mistake.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    I doubt if they purposely written these classes as Useless For Spontaneous Casters. Probably they had two writers and one of each forgot to put the clause (because he still lives in the times when most RPG fans weren't RAWtards and they knew that you cannot take actions while dead, even if it isn't outright stated), or a similar mistake.
    Now this is where we disagree. I fully believe that they purposely wrote these classes to be Useless For Spontaneous Casters.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    You mean Useless For Anyone Who Has No Alternate Spell Learning Mechanic.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starsinger View Post
    Now this is where we disagree. I fully believe that they purposely wrote these classes to be Useless For Spontaneous Casters.
    Then either you are mistaken or I'm having too much faith in human intelligence and people at Wizards are even stupider than I thought (they probably thought "sorcerers are much stronger than wizards so let's balance them by making them non-compatible with any PrCs!1 lalx!!1one").
    Last edited by Tengu_temp; 2008-10-07 at 03:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    Then either you are mistaken or I'm having too much faith in human intelligence and people at Wizards are extremely stupid (they probably thought "sorcerers are much stronger than wizards so let's balance them by making them non-compatible with any PrCs!1 lalx!!1one").
    I uhh.. point you to the only specifically spontaneous caster PrC in the DMG. Sure, Wizards of the Coast loves Sorcerers and Wizards the exact same...

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    I don't have the DMG in front of me, but I was under the impression that the flavor text in them mentioned spontaneous casters. Not that flavor text has any influence in a RAW debate, but it might in a RAI debate...

    That being said, the books are at home and I am at work, so it's vague memory I am working off of.

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    Default Re: Any love for the Eldritch Knight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    Then either you are mistaken or I'm having too much faith in human intelligence and people at Wizards are even stupider than I thought (they probably thought "sorcerers are much stronger than wizards so let's balance them by making them non-compatible with any PrCs!1 lalx!!1one").
    It was a mix of Skip Williams going "SPONTANEOUS CASTERS ARE EVIL MUST HOSE THEM REPEATEDLY" and the rest of the design team thinking rules mastery was a good design virtue.


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