What's the point of playing Paladin?

[Akisa]

Paladin's are basically warriors with the ability with a 1-4 smites per day. They're MAD characters so they would have less str then barbarians and fight which means are less likely to hit opponents even evil opponents. Since smites are so few paladins are forced to save up their smites for the bigger evil or waste them on lesser evil and be a warrior with better saves vs BBEG.

You can say you should pick paladin to roleplay a holy warrior. This would true but Cleric can play like holy warrior and be far more effective with self buffs and be generally more useful.

BTW this thread is about 3.5e

[Break]

If one prefers the Paladin mechanics for whatever reason (not having an interest in optimization, for example), or simply likes the default flavor, that's enough reason to play one.

There are those who don't think the mechanics are a good enough reason to sway them from any particular class choice, after all.

[Fax Celestis]

Exactly why most people play variants or rewrites (such as my Paladin rewrite).

[Crow]

What's the point of playing a wizard?

Seriously, what's the point of playing a role-playing game. If you have fun playing it, does it matter? If it's not for you, nobody is making you play a Paladin.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well, you've hit upon a classic problem of 3e - Replacement Classes.

Technically, the Cleric is a better class to take for lots of roles, but mechanically speaking, you will be making a trade off for proactive powers vs. reactive powers. Paladins gain a variety of built-in special abilities (immunity to fear and disease, CHA bonus to saves, etc.) which make them permanently durable. Now a well-buffed Cleric can meet or exceed all of these abilities, but only the Paladin never has to worry about being scared away from a fight, or suffering the effects of many diseases. Plus, their CHA bonus to all saves makes them pretty tanky against spells and such.

But the main reason to choose a Paladin over a Cleric is RP based. 3e Paladins are paragons of Goodness and Law, while Clerics are held to a lower standard. In Good towns, everyone should respect a Paladin and respect his judgment in many matters - if he can lay on hands, he must be Good. Clerics tend more to their co-religionists and may not even be Good or Lawful. In essence, the 3e Paladin is the Paladin Code; if you want to RP such an individual, no Cleric can be as unimpeachably Good as a Paladin, by RAW.

[Proven_Paradox]

I love the -concept- of the paladin. It's a difficult thing to explain, but there's something nebulous and awesome about the concept of a character who's dedication and faith in his cause lends him martial prowess.

The paladin class is supposed to represent that achetype. However, as you've rightly pointed out, you're better off with a well-buffed cleric. This is why I personally NEVER play a core paladin past level five (the class is actually pretty okay up to that point). However, there are at least two good and widely accepted paladin re-writes around (one here and one here) that takes the concept and makes it worth playing to 20. There's also the Tome of Battle's Crusader. Make him lawful good, and the flavor is essentially the same. If none of these are available, I'll just make a different character.

Both of these are surpassed by a proper clerizilla, but to me, it doesn't quite capture the proper paladin flavor provided by the three solutions in the previous paragraph. It's not something I'm able to readily explain, though... Paladin, to me, represents a devotion to good and order that exceeds that which a similar cleric represents. The ultimate zealot, completely without doubt of his cause or fear of those who would oppose it. It's an image I find compelling, likely because it's something so very different from myself.

[AstralFire]

I always like to play Paladin types, but I never have played a Paladin... or a cleric for that matter. I just don't like the feel of the Paladin mechanics. Its stunted spell-list always felt tacked on, I didn't want a mount, I wanted to shoot the holy wrath of god with fire from my sword. Smite didn't deal fire damage. I was very upset about that back when.

[Talya]

A well built mid-to-higher level paladin is actually reasonably effective compared to other melee types, until you start throwing in TOB classes.

[Oracle_Hunter]

A well built mid-to-higher level paladin is actually reasonably effective compared to other melee types, until you start throwing in TOB classes.

Do you count Cleric as a melee class?

[Tsotha-lanti]

I never had the patience for casters, or for huge feat combinations. Paladin/Bard and Paladin/Pious Templar are among my favorite character builds. Huge saves and tons of Charisma synergy with some divine feats yes plz.

Edit: Oh, and their fluff kicks ass, especially in FR.

[Ponce]

Paladin4 is great! Dip into it with your crusader.

[Talya]

Do you count Cleric as a melee class?

No. As decent as they can be in melee, a cleric who chooses to be good at melee isn't doing his job.

*smacks her party cleric who always thinks he's a fighter when we really need a cleric.*

[Stupendous_Man]

Bah, healing can be handled with wands.

[Tempest Fennac]

That's why I'd never bother with DMM to be honest (I'd sooner use the feats for healing due to other characters being able to fight well). And Wands may not always be available depending on the setting.

[Talya]

Bah, healing can be handled with wands.

I'm not talking about healing.

Clerics may not quite be Batman, but they can certainly make a valiant attempt at it, and in ways that wizards can't even duplicate.

[Tempest Fennac]

What sort of things exactly would you prefer the group's Cleric to do, Talya?

[SmartAlec]

I'd be curious as to what kind of God they were a Cleric of, too. A Cleric of a war-god busting heads makes perfect sense!

[monty]

That's why I'd never bother with DMM to be honest (I'd sooner use the feats for healing due to other characters being able to fight well).

DMM Persist Mass Lesser Vigor? DMM Chain Greater Magic Weapon? There's lots of uses for it that don't rely on making yourself awesome.

[Spiryt]

Maybe I'm missing something, but how exaclty do you want to have so high saves as a Barbarian, not to mention spells?

[Talya]

What sort of things exactly would you prefer the group's Cleric to do, Talya?

Spellcasting -- buffing the party, attacking/hindering the enemy with spells (Save or suck/lose/die, area effects), controlling the battlefield, and occasionally, when absolutely necessary, saving everyone's life with that mass cure/heal spell.

The reason clerics are considered in that "holy trinity" of Wizard/Cleric/Druid is not because they can bust noggins well with hammers. Melees can do that wonderfully too...and frankly, they can do it better than the self-buffed cleric can if the cleric buffs them instead of himself. A lot of people seem to view the cleric's spell list as "How to make the cleric a better fighter!" The point is, the cleric can already be a pretty good wizard. Why should he try to be a fighter?

I understand there are character concepts for the battle-cleric, and I'm all for acting in character first, however, it seems to me that if your cleric decides to become Mr. Melee-God, you need another cleric who decides to be a cleric.

[Enguhl]

I personally enjoy paladins quite a bit, they are one of my favorite classes. Role playing wise its because you get to be a holy warrior, traveling the lands and destroying evil. Mechanically they get some decent abilities too. Lay on hands, divine grace, smite is alright, summoning mounts, turning. I personally think that they are a pretty well-rounded class.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for the clarification, Tayla. That is a good point, Monty (I'd forgotten about those uses to be honest). The only drawback is that it would still take at least 3 feats to get 1 DMM ability (to be fair, I have trouble picking feats anyway, so that wouldn't be a bad choice if Glowsticks were availabe). Do Magic Weapon spells stack with Weapon enhancements?

[AstralFire]

Thanks for the clarification, Tayla. That is a good point, Monty (I'd forgotten about those uses to be honest). The only drawback is that it would still take at least 3 feats to get 1 DMM ability (to be fair, I have trouble picking feats anyway, so that wouldn't be a bad choice if Glowsticks were availabe). Do Magic Weapon spells stack with Weapon enhancements?

They stack with enchantments like fiery, and overwrite enhancement bonuses. Entirely possible to get an effective +14 weapon as a result.

[Tempest Fennac]

That means GMW which grants a +3 bonus wouldn't turn a +1 weapon into a +4 weapon, right? (Sorry about needing to ask this, but stacked bonuses confuse me).

[Talya]

That means GMW which grants a +3 bonus wouldn't turn a +1 weapon into a +4 weapon, right? (Sorry about needing to ask this, but stacked bonuses confuse me).

Right, they don't stack.

The point is you could have a +1 keen vorpal fiery burst weapon of ultimate kickassery with a total equivalent enhancement bonus of +10, and get a high level +5 GMW on it to make it a +5 weapon of keen vorpal fiery burst ultimate kickassery, boosting its effective enhancement up to +14.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks. (I see how it works now.)

[Starbuck_II]

That means GMW which grants a +3 bonus wouldn't turn a +1 weapon into a +4 weapon, right? (Sorry about needing to ask this, but stacked bonuses confuse me).

No, it won't stack. That would be too broken (give WotC some slack, they aren't that bad at balance).

But a +1 Weapon with +9 abilitys (flaming, etc) can be G. M. W. into a +5 Weapon with +9 abilities.

[AstralFire]

No, it won't stack. That would be too broken (give WotC some slack, they aren't that bad at balance).

But a +1 Weapon with +9 abilitys (flaming, etc) can be G. M. W. into a +5 Weapon with +9 abilities.

...Would a +10 weapon pre-epic really actually be dangerously more useful than a +1 splatenchanted tricked out weapon?

[JaxGaret]

Easy Smiting Paladin fix: play a Paladin/Cleric/Fist of Raziel.

Have your Paladin goodness and eat your Cleric cake too.

[LibraryOgre]

I want to be a hero.

In ways other classes simply cannot match, a Paladin is a hero. He's the Captain America. He's the Superman. He's the person who holds to his ideals no matter what.

Fighters CAN do that. Wizards MIGHT do that. Rogues will POSSIBLY do that. But when you want to play a character who does not waver, that's a paladin.