Half Orcs and Half Elves Revisited, Part II (3.5)

[ocato]

Some of you may remember about a year and a half ago, I posted my homebrew fixes for the 3.5 Half Elf and Half Orc. After a year of collecting dust and being mostly forgotten, I've opted to uncover this and play with it a little more and, hopefully, actually play test one/both of them sometime soon. So, here we go.

So, First, I will post their stats as is, then I will post my opinion on changing them to make them a little more uh... user-friendly. Stuff that has changed will be bolded and stuff that I take out with get the slash so you recognize it as missing. And yes, some of you already adore these classes and will vehemently oppose my meddling. To you, I apologize in advance.

HALF-ELVES
• Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
• Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
• Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
• +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
• Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
• Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.

Honestly, that is all fine and dandy to me. I think what they need though, is a little stat toying, and a little more of that human versatility. So let's try again

HALF-ELVES
• -2 CON, +2 CHA
• Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
• Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
• Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
• +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• +1 racial bonus on Diplomacy and +2 racial bonus on Gather Information checks.
• Dual Heritage: For all effects related to race, a half-elf can be considered either an elf or a human. The more advantageous race can apply to any given effect, and a Half-elf may be considered both an Elf and a Human simultaneously for different effects. Half-elves are also susceptable to any specialized attacks or damage (ie, bane weapons or the favored enemy skill) focused on both humans and elves.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
• Adept Adapter: At first level, choose any two skills that do not appear on your class list and add them to your class list.
• Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.

When I first posted this, there was a little uncertainty about giving half-elves +2 Charisma. However, for the most part, I think people really liked it (and thought it was balanced, given it's the exact opposite of a dwarf). The Constitution hit comes from elven parentage, which presumably would produce somewhat frailer children when mixed with humans. Now, the Charisma bonus comes from a variety of places kind of mixed into one thing. Half-elf flavor suggests that they are better with dealing with people because they are used to trying to bridge the gap between both of their races. Humans and Elves (and others with a preference in one direction or the other) tend to see what they like most in a Half-elf. Even the most violent Elf hating Half-Orc may be convinced to feel akin to a Half-elf due to their shared half-human heritage. I mean, let's face it. Humans and Elves are two of the most fascinating races around. Combine the grace and mystique of the Elves and the mercurial spirit of the Human and you get someone anyone can find a reason to admire. Those who scoff at Half-elves due to their parentage only serve to strengthen their resolve and deepen their character.

I dropped some of the elven bonuses to Half-elves to make them a little more human in nature. I feel that by sleeping like humans, lacking elven perception, and having some degree of human versatility, the Half-elf is truly more like a Half Human/Half Elf and less like a nerfed elf.

HALF-ORCS
• +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.
A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
• Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
• Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.

Yes, Half-Orcs are dumb and ugly, but this appears to be all about their weaknesses and not really about their strengths. Battle. Let's try again.

HALF-ORCS
• +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
• Survivors: Half-orcs are adept at surviving harsh terrain and dealing with other monsterous humanoids. They gain a +2 racial bonus to Survival and Intimidate skills.
• Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
• Dual Heritage: For all effects related to race, a half-orc can be considered either an orc or a human. The more advantageous race can apply to any given effect, and a Half-orc may be considered both an Orc and a Human simultaneously for different effects. Half-orcs are also susceptable to any specialized attacks or damage (ie, bane weapons or the favored enemy skill) focused on both humans and orcs.
• Orc Weapon Mastery: Half-orcs may treat the Orc Double Axe as a Martial Weapon. A Half-orc raised by humans or in an otherwise non-orcish setting (including a city with a variety of different races present) may replace this familiarity with any other exotic double weapon at the cost of 2 skill points. This option is only available at level one.
• War Bred: Half-orcs get a +1 to attack rolls when wielding a weapon with two hands. Furthermore, a Half-orc may use both ends of a double weapon as if he were wielding the weapon in two hands. For example, a Half-orc with 14 strength wielding an Orc Double Axe may add 1 and 1/2 his strength modifier (in this case 3) damage to attacks with both ends of the weapon.
• Anti-Social: Half-orcs are typically not adept at social interaction. When dealing with Non-Monstrous Humanoids Half-orcs receive a -2 racial penalty to all Charisma based skills except for Intimidate.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
• Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.

The first thing you may notice is that I changed the Charisma Penalty in a very odd way. I felt that Half-orcs' charisma penalty came from them being outcasts, unpopular among the standard races. This strikes me as being a bigger issue with society than with them. Now the Half-orc Paladin or Cleric (or Sorcerer) isn't less powerful just because people don't really like him or because people are reminded of Orcs when they see him. When you put the Half-orc among 'people' who are like him (monstrous humanoids), he's just as likable as the next guy (if not more, he's all suave and human-y without being a little pink-skinned twerp!).

I also decided to give them a bit of a buff in the area of fighting without feeling particularly bad about it. First off, no one thinks melee characters are epicly strong compared to casters, so giving them +1 to two-handed weapons isn't going to shock anyone (and might make them more interesting to fighters, martial clerics, paladins, rangers and the like). The other thing you may notice is the pretty big buff to double-weapons. Let's face it, double weapons are pretty poor by 90% of people's opinion. They cost a feat, all of the inherent weaknesses of TWF, and they cost a feat. So, what I did was make them more accessible and allowed for flavor variations (at 2 skill points, it isn't 'free.' Especially for an INT penalty race that favors low-skill point classes) and a bit more capable. Instead of seeing Barbarian Barbarian Barbarian, this Half-orc might be seen as a Cleric, Paladin, Ranger or even an occasional Monk. I think that attacking/power attacking with a double weapon will be good-- there's no doubt about that, but it probably won't be epically broken. Also, compared to the Spiked Chain proficiency I gave them last time, I don't think a double bladed sword is really going to offend anyone too terribly much.

As always, please feel free to comment, flame, hate, moan, holler, or complain. Just keep it civil, as always. And if anyone wants to do me a skinny, using these races in games and reporting back to the thread will result in my gratitude. Hopefully I'll be able to find something, but anyone else who wants to is more than welcome (I wouldn't have put them on the internet if I didn't want people to try them).

Thanks kids, have at it.

Also, Credit where Credit is due: The wording and execution of the Dual-heritage idea came from Indon, I believe. If I used an idea of yours from the previous thread and forgot to mention your input, please let me know so I can add your name.

[AstralFire]

Reaaaaaaally like the Half-Orc.

Half-Elf underwhelms me, though. Cha for CON is a really painful trade off unless you are a Sorcerer (and it's still not a fun one for them), and 4 skill points is hardly much of anything since you have to use this at character creation; it basically gives you one skill stuck at Rank 4 unless you do lots of multiclassing between things with different skill points. Another forum I frequent gave them Able Learner as a free feat; I liked that idea.

[ocato]

Reaaaaaaally like the Half-Orc.

I'm glad!

Half-Elf underwhelms me, though. Cha for CON is a really painful trade off unless you are a Sorcerer (and it's still not a fun one for them), and 4 skill points is hardly much of anything since you have to use this at character creation; it basically gives you one skill stuck at Rank 4 unless you do lots of multiclassing between things with different skill points. Another forum I frequent gave them Able Learner as a free feat; I liked that idea.

My goal with the Half-elf was to make them a bit elf, a bit human, and a wee bit of their own thing. Giving them full human skill points, seemed too far and giving them none seemed not far enough. While not epic or even super powerful, 4 skill points is enough that if you were going halfsies on a mediocre skill (or through something cross-class) you'd get a nice little head-start. It's meant to be a small push, not something heavy.

[AstralFire]

Be that as it may, it's still a bit weak. Perhaps they could pick any one or two skills to be class skills?

[ocato]

On second thought, I kind of like the Able Learner thing... How about a compromise. Say, add any 2 skills to your class skill list?

Edit: And by compromise, I mean I misread your post and agree that your idea sounds fair.

[Lappy9000]

HALF-ELVES
• -2 CON, +2 CHA
• Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
• Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
• Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
• +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• +1 racial bonus on Diplomacy and +2 racial bonus on Gather Information checks.
• Dual Heritage: For all effects related to race, a half-elf can be considered either an elf or a human. The more advantageous race can apply to any given effect, and a Half-elf may be considered both an Elf and a Human simultaneously for different effects. Half-elves are also susceptable to any specialized attacks or damage (ie, bane weapons or the favored enemy skill) focused on both humans and elves.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
• Skillfully Versatile: Half Elves start with an additional 4 skill points. They do not gain bonus skill points at any other level than the first.
• Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.

That's not a bad half-orc you've got there, but I'm not sure I like your half-elf quite as much. Half-elves always strike me as a little tricky to handle, because to me, they never seemed any better or worse at anything ability related than anyone else. The Diplomacy and Gather Information probably work fine instead of a +2 Charisma, and half-elves certainly seem heartier than full elves.

Everything you've got is probably fine without the +2 Cha, -2 Con. Such ability scores can shoehorn half-keeblers into a certain niche, which doesn't really work if they're supposed to be as versital as humans.

Overall, despite how much I hate the half- abominations races, I think you've got something here.

[ocato]

Added Astral Fire's class skill idea, removed bonus skill points.

[afroakuma]

I concur with the council. Half-orc is excellent and will be stolen with brutal haste.

The issue everyone else seems to have (as well as I) is the ability score modifiers for your half-elves. As was said, ability modifiers have a bad habit of pigeonholing a race, and the aasimar already exist to be paladins. I'd angle for making the half-elves more exotic and aware than humans, without inheriting genetic frailty from their elf parent.

[ocato]

My main concern was that I wanted +2 Charisma. That was one of the first things that screamed at me. It was loud too, it was all CHARRRRRRRRISMA. Upon doing this, I had to pick a weakness, which is why I grabbed Constitution. Elves already have a -2 to Con so it has some background. I was worried that -2 to Strength might be a little random, Dex made 0 sense, Int was kind of counter intuitive (yay skills boo int!), and Wisdom... er... actually wisdom isn't a horrible choice. The main reason I picked Con was because it stood out as a good balance to a possibly dangerous mental stat boost without terribly pigeonholing anyone. Yes Con is important, but it's typically a secondary or tertiary interest. It's never a complete dump stat (except undead/constructs). I think that Half Elves with +2 Cha and -2 Con make very good Bards and Sorcerers, and have a lot of potential for Clerics, Favored Souls, Spirit Shamans, Warlocks (not hellfire warlocks though), Rogues, Beguilers, and maybe a handful of Paladins. Half-elves fall into a safe zone between Elf and Human, with their own flavor added in, which is really probably where they aught to be. Will there be a bunch of Half-elf Barbarians? Probably not. Is that necessarily a problem? That remains to be seen.

[afroakuma]

You say Dragon Shaman *spit* again and I'll defenestrate you.

We do NOT talk about Dragon Shaman. *spit.*

[AstralFire]

Cha is such a weak stat that you can, in some cases, get away with just a positive modifier to it. I believe Star Elves and 0 Level Aasimar do.

[ocato]

You say Dragon Shaman *spit* again and I'll defenestrate you.

We do NOT talk about Dragon Shaman. *spit.*

Did I say Dragon Shaman? *doinks*

I meant Spirit Shaman

[Lappy9000]

Cha is such a weak stat that you can, in some cases, get away with just a positive modifier to it. I believe Star Elves and 0 Level Aasimar do.

Hey, people with high charisma rule the world. Any campaign where charisma is a weak stat is probably only focusing on door-smashing (not that there's anything wrong with that )

EDIT: Why did I just quote afroakuma there?

[AstralFire]

Charisma is personally my favorite stat, but D&D -is- balanced around smashing doors down. Otherwise the Changeling'd be one of the strongest +0 LAs hands down.

[Lappy9000]

Charisma is personally my favorite stat, but D&D -is- balanced around smashing doors down. Otherwise the Changeling'd be one of the strongest +0 LAs hands down.

Actually changelings don't get any Charisma bonuses
(at least not in Eberron, but we could be on different pages)

[AstralFire]

Actually changelings don't get any Charisma bonuses

Yes, but they get a huge bonus to Disguise that can't simply be dispelled or otherwise easily magically negated, and bonuses to lots of charisma skills. In a social intrigue oriented game, they're beasts.

[afroakuma]

Quoting me is dangerous. Last person to do it went mildly insane.

[ocato]

According to a little google-fu, the Star Elf also has +2 Cha -2 Con. As for the Lesser Aasimar, +2 Wis +2 Cha no penalty no LA doesn't exactly strike me as 'balanced'.

[Lappy9000]

Yes, but they get a huge bonus to Disguise that can't simply be dispelled or otherwise easily magically negated, and bonuses to lots of charisma skills. In a social intrigue oriented game, they're beasts.

Man, 4th level soulstitched bard. +2 Charisma racial bonus, with 18 is 20 Charisma.

7 Ranks in Bluff + Skill Focus (Bluff) + Eagle's Splendor (Making Cha 24) + Glibness = 1d20 + 47 Bluff check.

^ I had a friend who did this.

[AstralFire]

Heh, very true with Aasimar.

Up to you, though... Could have -sworn- there was a race with just +2 Cha. Might have just been Dragon.

Man, 4th level soulstitched bard. +2 Charisma racial bonus, with 18 is 20 Charisma.

7 Ranks in Bluff + Skill Focus (Bluff) + Eagle's Splendor (Making Cha 24) + Glibness = 1d20 + 47 Bluff check.

^ I had a friend who did this.

Changeling can do that as well, though... think they get a racial bonus to bluff (been a while though) and if not, they're only 1 point behind.

[ocato]

As much as I'd like to hand out candy and rainbows and call it homebrewing, I have the very difficult issue with the eventual desire to play these races in games that have DMs who are reading my sheet. While some DMs will handwave a +2 Charisma race with no penalty right in, many will probably frown. +2 Charisma -2 Con? Some might shudder at the type who would do that to himself, but I think most of them (including the hard asses) will think it's pretty fair.

[Lappy9000]

Got a race that's +2 Charisma, -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom. They definitely make up for it though...

[afroakuma]

I like the idea that they are more charismatic, but I think you should run that as you did with half-orcs, i.e. they get bonuses to Diplomacy and Sense Motive, or some such. I doubt a frail-looking half-breed will get a bonus to Intimidate.

I haven't seen this "Lesser" aasimar; where did it originate?

[AstralFire]

As much as I'd like to hand out candy and rainbows and call it homebrewing, I have the very difficult issue with the eventual desire to play these races in games that have DMs who are reading my sheet. While some DMs will handwave a +2 Charisma race with no penalty right in, many will probably frown. +2 Charisma -2 Con? Some might shudder at the type who would do that to himself, but I think most of them (including the hard asses) will think it's pretty fair.

Eh, just a thought. I always really hate handing out -2 Con.

On the whole, I'd say they both look really good now.

I haven't seen this "Lesser" aasimar; where did it originate?

Monte Cook's poor planning. Or whoever else did the racial progression for them. You can take level 1 and then not take level 2, and level 1 has absolutely no drawbacks at all, it just leaves out the SLAs.

[afroakuma]

I see where you're going now.

Yeah, that's a no.

[ocato]

Also: Lesser Aasimar +2 Wis +2 Cha, medium, 30 ft., light (sp), favorite class: paladin, humanoid (planetouched), player’s guide to faerun pg.191


I would also like to comment that I'm not trying to discourage any suggestions in the least, I just simply disagree with adding 2 Charisma, taking nothing away, and hoping people will be okay with that. I might be convinced to make the change to -2 Wisdom. I'm not certain if that would just be weird or be fairly flavorful/popular. It might scare away Paladins (no more than -2 Con, I suppose) but it'd definitely scare away Clerics. It would also have no major mechanical threat to Charisma Casters except a weakened Will save (which is probably their good save anyway). I'm trying to find a balance between "Desirable," "Balanced," and "Not Pigeonholed." Your input so far has been very valuable, thank you.

[afroakuma]

Forgotten Realms. That explains SO much.

Personally, I have a problem with both of the adjustments. I wouldn't do either of them.

[pyrefiend]

I think the most common argument is that half-elves should receive no bonuses or penalties to ability scores. Their aptitude for social encounters could easily be represented as a bonus to skill points, but a charisma bonus implies that something in the half-elves' heritage is the source of that bonus. Charisma doesn't just provide skill in social encounters, it also controls the power of natural magic for some classes. Neither the human nor the elf show any particular aptitude for sorcery.

[ocato]

I would argue that humans are very likely to show aptitude for Sorcery (and to have the far gone Draconic heritage that that often implies). Charisma shows a natural presence of personality, an inner strength that makes them likable, easy to get along with, and gives them the ability to draw power not from books or a divinity, but from themselves. I think that if you take the majesty of the Elf and the spirit of Humans, it is not too far-fetched to assume that such a child of two destinies would have within him/her a great inner power.

As for giving Half-Elves no racial bonus, I think that's a big party of why they're so meh right now in the first place. You may not like to play Elves or Dwarves or Half-orcs for your current project because they have undesirable negatives in some places, but at least they've also got something good going for them. Humans are only really an exception because they get a bonus feat, which is pretty fantastic in of itself. Half-elves don't really give you much of anything except a little bonus to a few skills. It just doesn't grab people. +2 Charisma will grab some people, I guarantee it.

[Lappy9000]

I would argue that humans are very likely to show aptitude for Sorcery (and to have the far gone Draconic heritage that that often implies). Charisma shows a natural presence of personality, an inner strength that makes them likable, easy to get along with, and gives them the ability to draw power not from books or a divinity, but from themselves. I think that if you take the majesty of the Elf and the spirit of Humans, it is not too far-fetched to assume that such a child of two destinies would have within him/her a great inner power.

As for giving Half-Elves no racial bonus, I think that's a big party of why they're so meh right now in the first place. You may not like to play Elves or Dwarves or Half-orcs for your current project because they have undesirable negatives in some places, but at least they've also got something good going for them. Humans are only really an exception because they get a bonus feat, which is pretty fantastic in of itself. Half-elves don't really give you much of anything except a little bonus to a few skills. It just doesn't grab people. +2 Charisma will grab some people, I guarantee it.

This may just be my experience, but Half-Elf has always been one of the most popular races in the games I've played, second only to humans. Half-Elves tend to grab people just because of that; they're more interesting than playing a boring old human, yet still just as adaptable. People pick half-elves and humans because of that adaptability, whereas a dwarf or an elf is expected to fill certain roles. Sure, you can branch out, but you do so (usually) at personal expense to your character.

I know you want charisma, but the fact that you can't find another suitable ability to balance it out only demonstrates that malleability of half-elvens. Besides, who doesn't like skill bonuses and low-light vision?

I still think your first attempt (minus the racial ability modifiers) was excellent, but hey, it's your game. Giving them a +2 to Charisma shouldn't unbalance them.