Need HALP! Level 70 uber cheese!

[Fan]

Okay we are playing in a Lvl 70 game, and the entire goal is to saly a optimized deity, I unfoutantly am not familar with THIS high of a level of play, and i need help with building a buil that isn't a: Pun Pun B: anything like Halfling gauntlets, or any infitne combos.
We get 6 lbvls of LA for free this inculdes RHD, and I REALLY need to figure this out.

[Khosan]

Is epic spellcasting allowed?

If so, how long do you have to prepare?

[AstralFire]

D&D Very High Epic Play consists entirely of three types of combat:

- Core Fighter tactics, with bigger numbers
- A race to collect your followers faster than the other guy for your epic spell with a large ritual modifier to make it cheap
- Weird temporal games of "I freeze time and do this!" "BUT WAIT I FROZE IT FIRST AND DO THIS!" which is basically what Pun-Pun does, only it takes a lot more levels to get there.

[Fan]

Is epic spellcasting allowed?

If so, how long do you have to prepare?

Epic spellcasting is IN, and I have max ranks, and a magic item for Knowldge aracna.
@: Astral fire?: The Gm has nerfed time stop, but allowed clerity. Also I WAS considering takign epic Leader ship, Undead mastery, and Legendary leader, but that would only get a bunch of low levels that I couldn't boost (well over Ten thousand with the apprpriate charisma), and iI was even considerign adding in a rod of leadership for the storming of the gates. But, I couldn't hurt the majority fo his followers with them havign DR unless I tokk Marshal, and Order of the purple dragon with Chargers.

[AstralFire]

Epic spellcasting is IN, and I have max ranks, and a magic item for Knowldge aracna.
@: Astral fire?: The Gm has nerfed time stop, but allowed clerity. Also I WAS considering takign epic Leader ship, Undead mastery, and Legendary leader, but that would only get a bunch of low levels that I couldn't boost (well over Ten thousand with the apprpriate charisma), and iI was even considerign adding in a rod of leadership for the storming of the gates. But, I couldn't hurt the majority fo his followers with them havign DR unless I tokk Marshal, and Order of the purple dragon with Chargers.

No, no. You don't need followers to fight. You need them to act as assistants in your epic spell. You get a very large reduction to the spellcraft DC for a sufficient number of assistants.

[Fan]

No, no. You don't need followers to fight. You need them to act as assistants in your epic spell. You get a very large reduction to the spellcraft DC for a sufficient number of assistants.

He also nerfed that with no migitation for more than 1/2 of the spells DC!
GAH!
I was also considering makign epic permaent runes through the use of the Rune smith PRC, and the abuse of craft epic arms, and weapons.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Just out of curiosity, at level 70 how long do rounds take?

[Fan]

Just out of curiosity, at level 70 how long do rounds take?

Like two days with time stop cheese, and multi magic feats.

[Flickerdart]

Item Familiar the hell out of your Spellcraft. By level 70, that will be a hefty bonus. 73 base, plus your INT modifier which should be gigantic, plus Item Familiar, plus Skill Focus, plus whatever else you can find. Simple base ranks won't do.

Maximize your epic casting and you win.

[JeminiZero]

The following is a bunch of epic casting advice Emperor Tippy once posted somewhere, which I saved to a text file. Because as he likes to say, Tippy = Win.

But anyways. There are 2 basic approaches to epic casting

First up: Rituals
You create an Epic Spell that permanently summons a Couatl.
The DC pre mitigation is 150 (30x5).
Increase the Casting time to 10 minutes (-18).
Increase the Casting time by 86 days (-132).
The spell now is free to create and has a final DC of 0.

The Draw back of this spell is the time required. If you have used arcane genesis to get your own personal demiplane with a much faster time trait that isn't really a problem but otherwise I recommend the following:
Hire 15 level 9 casters to sacrifice 1 5th level spell slot per casting. And keep the 10 minute casting time. At level 21 you should be able to cast 2 Epic Spells per day.

So day 1 you hire 15 level 9 casters and gain 2 Couatl's (which cast as level 9 clerics meaning 5th level spell slots).
Day 2 you hire 13 casters and gain 2 more Couatl's. And so on. By day 8 you don't need to hire any more casters.

Repeat the above until you have 30 Couatl's (so 15 days worth of casting).

Now you make your next epic spell. This is like the one above but permanently summons a solar instead of a Couatl. You need 30 Couatl's to mitigate the DC down to 0 with a 10 minute casting time.

Every 10 days of summoned solars allows you to mitigate away another 340 points of the spell craft DC. After 30 days you can mitigate away 1,290 points of the spell craft DC.


Now make whatever spells you want and mitigate away the costs. Permanent buffs are very nice. Now let's assume that you did the ritual thing.

Some good spells are the following:
Immunity to all Spells:
DC 970 pre mitigation (use the Ward seed and don't choose the radius option). This includes immunity to all epic spells as well.
Resistance to all Normal attacks:
DC 1,290 pre mitigation (again using the ward seed). This gives you resistance to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage of 125 points per turn.
Sonic Bolt:
DC 1,290 Pre mitigation. This uses the energy seed and gives you the spell like ability to create a Sonic Bolt that deals 633d6 damage (range 300 feet, reflex half) at will. But we only need 300d6 damage. Which allows us to add 312 to our caster level check to beat SR and change those d6's to d20's.
Epic Armor:
Use the armor seed and you can gain +24 AC of one of the nice types (Deflection, Luck, Divine, Profane, insight, etc). Get a few different versions (1 for each type) and you can end up with an AC of 120 just from this spell.

Those are just some ideas.

But the real power comes with the Origin of the Species spells. You make a creature that can breed in like 5 seconds and that has every possible ability you can think of as an Ex ability, including the ability to instantaneously mind switch with 1 willing person. You then make it extra specially loyal to you and order the mind switch. All the sudden you are in a body that makes the gods whimper in fear. Although for the really good ones you need to be able to mitigate a DC of around 20,000.

No I am not suggesting that you actually go out and use Epic magic like this but that is how you do the uber broken Epic casting. And even this stuff (besides the Origin of the Species) pales beside some of the stuff you can do (I have moved stars around before.).

[monty]

The following is a bunch of epic casting advice Emperor Tippy once posted somewhere, which I saved to a text file. Because as he likes to say, Tippy = Win.

He already said there's a houserule. No more than 1/2 DC mitigation.

[Fan]

He already said there's a houserule. No more than 1/2 DC mitigation.

I CAN manage a Dc of up to 500 though with my spells, and equipment. (epic sill item boosters, and Epic skill focus!)

[Mushroom Ninja]

Like two days with time stop cheese, and multi magic feats.

Sweet! I never knew epic games were so epic!

[JeminiZero]

He already said there's a houserule. No more than 1/2 DC mitigation.

Gah! It took longer to find that text file than I expected.

Edit: I am largely ignorant on the full mechanics on epic casting. But if you can use aid another on epic casting, then resort to Nanomachines?

[Copacetic]

For those wondering, FF Fanboy is talking about this thread. You know, for home-ruling convienence.

[jcsw]

I CAN manage a Dc of up to 500 though with my spells, and equipment. (epic sill item boosters, and Epic skill focus!)

The issue is that a DC 0 has major advantages over DC 500, even though you can do DC 500 easily. The advantage being zero research time and cost.
Try making a demiplane so you can research spells in relative peace.

Also try to snag every immunity you possibly can.
Most important: Immunity to damage, Immunity to death effects, Immunity to Fort Saves (Like an undead), Immunity to dispelling (Requires an epic spell to ward against all those spells). Immunity to Vision (Invisibility), Immunity to Detection (by other players mostly). Immunity to Mind Affecting.

By the way, if it wasn't already obvious, I suggest you don't specialize. It's level 70, you don't need to specialize for extra spells.

[Fan]

The issue is that a DC 0 has major advantages over DC 500, even though you can do DC 500 easily. The advantage being zero research time and cost.
Try making a demiplane so you can research spells in relative peace.

Also try to snag every immunity you possibly can.
Most important: Immunity to damage, Immunity to death effects, Immunity to Fort Saves (Like an undead), Immunity to dispelling (Requires an epic spell to ward against all those spells). Immunity to Vision (Invisibility), Immunity to Detection (by other players mostly). Immunity to Mind Affecting.

By the way, if it wasn't already obvious, I suggest you don't specialize. It's level 70, you don't need to specialize for extra spells.

I'm not speiclizing ,and i will haev to thank who ever mentioned tippy as I just remebered his anti ossmium bomb technuiqe.

[Jack_Simth]

He already said there's a houserule. No more than 1/2 DC mitigation.

Additionally, that post of Tippy's has a few things off (Couatls cast as Sorcerer-9's, not Cleric-9's in 3.5), and he's doing it the long way (starting out with rituals for Couatls, using the higher DC Solars rather than the lower DC Planetars).

For something a little closer to right....

A single Wizard-21 (generalist), working alone, uninterrupted....

1) Get your first set of ritualists.
Every day for 20 days...
a) Prepare four copies each of: Magic Circle Against Law (3rd), Dimensional Anchor (4th), Dismissal (5th), Planar Binding (6th), Quickened Dispel Magic (7th), Moment of Prescience (8th); this leaves you with your 1st, 2nd, 9th, and bonus spell slots for personal defense.
b) Planar Bind 4 Couatls (with their saves, you should have a 95% chance of Calling and trapping one on any given attempt; applying Moment of Prescience to the opposed charisma check to negotiate, and you've got a 95% of binding any individual to your service for 21 days) to aid you in all the spells you cast over the next 21 days. You get approximately 90% success rate on these Callings (technically, the expected amount is 90.25%). If something goes wrong, you use a Quickened Dispel Magic (to get rid of your own Dimensional Anchor) and Dismissal (to get rid of the Couatl). If the Couatl saves against the Dismissal, you use a 9th level spell on it the next round (quite frankly, at this point, a standard Couatl shouldn't pose any noticeable threat).
c) Rest up to recover spells
Now, statistically, at the 20-day mark, you'll have 20*4*0.90=72 Couatls in your service. If we want a margin of safety, we say 80% of them stick around, for 64 Couatls.
We maintain this for a while, to keep the supply of Couatls up. After all, each one casts as a Sorcerer-9 (4th level spell slots, for -7 to a Spellcraft DC for an Epic spell; we have a -448 spellcraft modifier this way).
2) Get your permanent set of ritualists
a) Craft a DC 0 Epic spell (no gp, xp, or time cost to research) to Permanently (*5) Summon (base DC 14 for CR 2 Outsider) Planetars (CR 16, so +14 CR over 2, so +28 DC); one Planetar, Permanently Summoned, is thus a base Spellcraft DC of 5*(14+28)=210 - we can be Summoning Two of them initially (or can start summoning them after a ten-day warmup). If you max out Spellcraft and Kn(Arcana), You have two Epic spell slots at this level - and Couatl's have more than two 4th level spell slots each day, so this is fine. You are now picking up four Planetars each day - and each Planetar casts as a Cleric-17 - which means two 9th level spell slots (-17 mitigation per Planetar, twice per day). After three days of this (day 23), you now have 12 Planetars (9th level spells) and 64 Couatls (4th level spells) for -652 mitigation... Permanently Summoning three Planetars at a time is DC 630. We now research another DC 0 Epic spell to do so (requiring 12 9th level spell slots, and 64 4th level spell slots). This takes no time, no xp, and no gp. So on day 24, you're Permanently Summoning 3 Planetars at a time, twice per day, for six planetars per day. At the end of day 25, you now have 24 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for 856 in mitigation... which is good for four Planetars per casting, so research another spell, and get 8 Planetars a day. At the end of day 27, you now have 40 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for -1,128 in mitigation - enough for five planetars a casting, for 10 a day. At the end of day 28, you have 50 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for -1,298 in mitigation - enough for 6 Planetars/casting, and 12/day. At the end of day 29, you have 62 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for -1,502 in mitigation - enough for 7 Planetars per casting, and 14 per day. At the end of day 30, you have 76 Planetars and 64 Couatls, for 1,740 in mitigation - enough for 8 Planetars per casting and thus 16 per day.

This is exponential growth. Every 12 (and 1/3rd, roughly) Planetars gives you space for another planetar per casting, for two more planetars per day. You can use this method to get arbitrarily high DC's in surprisingly short timeframes. A little fun with spreadsheets, and at day 60, you've got 8668 Permanently Summoned Planetars (and 64 Called Couatls, but that's change at this point - still, my calculations include them) for more than 147,804
in mitigation by spell slots. At day 90, that's 783,338 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and 13,317,194 in Mitigation. At day 120, that's 70,644,176 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and 1,200,951,440 in Mitigation. At day 365, you're looking at approximately 6.54*10^23 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and approximately 1.11*10^25 in mitigation.

What can you do with 11,100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 in mitigation?

But that's immaterial with the listed house-rules.

A few fun things:

As written, you can apply Persistent Spell to Time Stop if you've got a 15th level spell slot - which, at 70th, is easy to do. For that matter, at 70th, you could get a Quickened Persistent Time Stop in a 19th level spell slot, or an Extended(Persistent(Quickened Time Stop)) in a 20th level spell slot.

What good is that, you ask?

Well, you get 48 hours uninterrupted. As an Arcanist, that lets you prepare spells. Play an Elan, ready an action to cast Time Stop as soon as you get out of Time Stop, and you have an infinite amount of time, at will, to do whatever. Regardless of other considerations, you can "go nova" whenever you want, as a full recharge is a swift-action away.

That nifty Epic rod that reduces XP costs 1/day goes very well with True Creation (research it, or get a feat that handles it) when you've literally got all the time in the world.

Really, that high up, you're looking at a game of chess, and the dice don't generally mean much....

[tyckspoon]

g
..day 90, that's 783,338 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and 13,317,194 in Mitigation. At day 120, that's 70,644,176 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and 1,200,951,440 in Mitigation. At day 365, you're looking at approximately 6.54*10^23 Permanently Summoned Planetars, and approximately 1.11*10^25 in mitigation.

Of course, if you've managed to get this far, you have somewhere between enough Planetars to populate your own Celestial country and several orders of magnitude more Planetars than there are other sentient beings in the known area of most Prime Material gameworlds.. at which point you probably don't need the Spellcraft mitigation for anything more than entertaining yourself or possibly launching a takeover of alternate universes. Or creating an entirely new alternate universe, completely populated, just so you can enjoy taking it over.

[monty]

What can you do with slightly more than a mole of planetars? Well, you could do some interesting chemistry experiments...

[Jack_Simth]

What can you do with slightly more than a mole of planetars? Well, you could do some interesting chemistry experiments...

Yeah, Exponential Growth does tend to go "bang"...

Of course, if you've managed to get this far, you have somewhere between enough Planetars to populate your own Celestial country and several orders of magnitude more Planetars than there are other sentient beings in the known area of most Prime Material gameworlds.. at which point you probably don't need the Spellcraft mitigation for anything more than entertaining yourself or possibly launching a takeover of alternate universes. Or creating an entirely new alternate universe, completely populated, just so you can enjoy taking it over.

Or in this case, "Big Bang".

[Rei_Jin]

Okay, I've played from both sides (PC and DM) in one of Belials High Epic challenges. You need to be creative if you're using a spellcaster, without trying to deliberately break things. Remember though, that what will win you the day is good tactics, combined with good character builds, and a little bit of luck.

Work out who will be taking what role within the party, and work together. Come up with some strategies, and work towards them. An epic spell that casts Heal on you up to 6 times when required is a good example. Another one that casts True Resurrection on you should you die is a good plan.

There are many spells that you can, and should use. Use your imagination, and if you need some help with specific spells, do what you can and then ask for help. You'll be surprised by what comes up.

[Fan]

Okay, I've played from both sides (PC and DM) in one of Belials High Epic challenges. You need to be creative if you're using a spellcaster, without trying to deliberately break things. Remember though, that what will win you the day is good tactics, combined with good character builds, and a little bit of luck.

Work out who will be taking what role within the party, and work together. Come up with some strategies, and work towards them. An epic spell that casts Heal on you up to 6 times when required is a good example. Another one that casts True Resurrection on you should you die is a good plan.

There are many spells that you can, and should use. Use your imagination, and if you need some help with specific spells, do what you can and then ask for help. You'll be surprised by what comes up.

I have exprimented thoug, and have dug through my various PDF's, and other broken soruces, but i came up with nadda on this level.

[Zeful]

So you don't know how to make a 70th level character or is it something else? I don't understand what you want.

[Fan]

So you don't know how to make a 70th level character or is it something else? I don't understand what you want.

I understand how to make one its making it cheesy when my normal cheeseball options are denied to me. (Ie. My starmantle cloak, Extrodinary spell aim AMF combo has been nulled as well as quite a few other things,.)

[RTGoodman]

Well, aside from needing Epic Spellcasting, that free 6 LA/RHD is going to need to be filled. There are a lot of templates you could go about stacking to get what you want. Dark, Mineral Warrior, and stuff like that are all cheap (+1 LA), and I'm sure there are enough of them for each character type that you'll get a relatively optimized character (though, at ECL 70, race and template aren't going to be that important).

If you go the spellcaster route, I'd definitely try to go for a standard (cheesy) Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage/Loremaster/Fatespinner-type character and then just slap on the Lich or Demilich template so you can't be killed as easily. That is, unless this deity your fighting knows about your phylactery, but if so you don't really have much of a chance either way. Seriously. Deities get some crazy stuff.

[Fan]

Well, aside from needing Epic Spellcasting, that free 6 LA/RHD is going to need to be filled. There are a lot of templates you could go about stacking to get what you want. Dark, Mineral Warrior, and stuff like that are all cheap (+1 LA), and I'm sure there are enough of them for each character type that you'll get a relatively optimized character (though, at ECL 70, race and template aren't going to be that important).

If you go the spellcaster route, I'd definitely try to go for a standard (cheesy) Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage/Loremaster/Fatespinner-type character and then just slap on the Lich or Demilich template so you can't be killed as easily. That is, unless this deity your fighting knows about your phylactery, but if so you don't really have much of a chance either way. Seriously. Deities get some crazy stuff.

Actually he nulled the nat 20 on everything part, and I can by pass divine immunties if I go the origin of speices route presented, and just mind swap their faces no save, or SR.

[jcsw]

Like I said, get immunity to everything.

Illithid Savant your way through...

Immunity to Damage: Steal Troll's regen then get immunity to fire and acid by stealing fire immunity and acid immunity (acidborn template?). (Or just take Tarrasque... you could probably do that at level 70)

Immunity to Death/Mind Affecting: Illithi-lich?

Immunity to Dispelling: Epic Warding Spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could make a Death Knight (MM2, +5 LA) for quite a few immunities, plus you won't be affected by most things that specifically effect undead, such as Turning. Say he was created by a Dread Necromancer 8+ with the Corpsecrafter feat in a Desecrated area with an evil altar, and get the feat Improved Toughness, for 1d12+7 HP per level. You'd get SR 80, which is considerably better than most other templates which can't grant SR higher than a certain amount.

Another idea would be to make a Variant Half-Fiend, probably pick a creature from a Fiendish Codex, Fiend Folio, or one of the later Monster Manuals as the parent demon, and note that any outsider with the evil subtype would be sufficient. Some of those can give you a considerable Dex, Con, and Int bonus, as well as many other benefits that would probably insignificant at this level.

I'd probably make a Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Rainbow Servant 10/ Abjurant Champion 5/ etc. and end up with 20th level spellcasting in both classes. Use Martial Arcanist from Abjurant Champion with Persistent Divine Power to get a Wizard caster level of 70 plus Orange Prism Ioun Stone plus Ring of Arcane Might. With Epic Spellcasting you'll get twice as many epic spells/day for your Kn: Arcana ranks due to having two arcane spellcasting classes with 9th level spells, and Int will be your only spellcasting stat apart from a minimum Wis score of 13 +6 Enhancement for access to 9th level Cleric spells. You could then spend Beguiler spell slots to use Twin Spell and Repeat Spell on Celerity, so each casting occurs four times.

Personally I wouldn't even bother playing at this level. The last epic character I made was level 23, I got six full attacks every round, one fewer in a surprise round, each for 16 attacks, and each attack hit for around 400 damage and almost couldn't miss, and every full attack could be against a target up to around 1000 feet away from the last one, or on the same target if it was still alive, and I could Great Cleave anything within 20 feet and then continue the full attack against that target. Nothing could stop me, when an opponent had a Starmantle Cloak and a BoED Retributive Amulet I'd Slight of Hand both before I'd attack them, and I never lost initiative. It wasn't even fun. I leveled up once and spent over an hour just on my attack and damage bonuses, and the next time I leveled up I didn't even bother changing them. Plus I'm not even going to get into the DBZ comparison of what-happens-if-we-ignore-this, and the why-doesn't-another-epic-party-show-up-to-fix-this-same-problem fallacy.

[The Glyphstone]

Despite my at the idea of going for outside help on this, I've got to say...is anyone actually reading the thread linked to, and Belial's comments on what he's changed or banned? It's not that much to read right now.

For instance, Divine Power caps your Base Attack Bonus at +20, at the same time you stop gaining BAB anyways. There's also some significant other caps put in place on how much you can get from stat boosters, and such.