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    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    We're starting between level 10 and 12, not sure exactly yet, and I'm thinking of playing a Chameleon. Unfortunately, Dungeonscape is not allowed, so no Factotums. The books we can use are:

    DMG 1+2, PHB 1+2, Races of The Wild+Stone+Destiny+Eberron, Complete Divine+Arcane+Mage+Scoundrel+Champion, Unearthed Arcana, Lords of Madness, Tome of Magic+Battle, Libris Mortis, Dragon Magic, Draconomicon, Drow of the Underdark, Fiend Folio Spell Compendium, Magic Items Compendium, Fiendish Codex I+II, BoED, BoVD

    I think I'm going to go with Changeling as race.
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    I've found Warlock is a really nice lead in for Chameleon. All the requisite skills are class skills, you can get a few nice buffs that last all day, UMD for fun and profit, and a weapon that never runs out.
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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    What isn't a fun Chameleon build?

    I recommend Rogue. The Chameleon generally misses the skill monkey and precision damage roles; it just so happens that Factotum is awesome at both, but Rogue is too. You can also benefit from the racial substitution levels for changeling Rogues (found in RoE), granting 10 + int skill points and the ability to take 10 on key social skills. I think this is the path that comes closest to Factotum, although I could be wrong. It still misses out on Inspiration Points... maybe a Psychic Warrior can emulate that decently, but Rogue covers the main things a Factotum would when going into Chameleon, and then the Chameleon can take over from there.

    Changeling Rogue 1/Rogue 4/Chameleon 5-7

    The changeling Rogue sub level at 3 replaces Trapsense for +1 to knowledge checks (and the extra 2 skill points)... Neither will be all that significant for you if you're entering Chameleon at 6th, since those weak abilities are intended to scale with your Rogue level.
    • Chameleon Base Class [3.5]/[PF]: A versatile, morphic class that mimics one basic party role (warrior, caster, sneak, etc) at a time. If you find yourself getting bored of any class you play too long, the Chameleon is for you!
    • Warlock Power Sources [3.5]: Making Hellfire Warlock part of the base class and providing other similar options for Warlocks whose powers don't come from devils.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    We're starting between level 10 and 12, not sure exactly yet, and I'm thinking of playing a Chameleon. Unfortunately, Dungeonscape is not allowed, so no Factotums. The books we can use are:

    DMG 1+2, PHB 1+2, Races of The Wild+Stone+Destiny+Eberron, Complete Divine+Arcane+Mage+Scoundrel+Champion, Unearthed Arcana, Lords of Madness, Tome of Magic+Battle, Libris Mortis, Dragon Magic, Draconomicon, Drow of the Underdark, Fiend Folio Spell Compendium, Magic Items Compendium, Fiendish Codex I+II, BoED, BoVD

    I think I'm going to go with Changeling as race.
    ...

    The point of a Chameleon is that there isn't really a fixed build.

    Warlock works, as does Bard. For maximum flexibility, you want...

    1) A caster base (as you can't use your focus to qualify for feats, and you have to qualify for whatever feat you're using for your Flexible Feat of the day).
    2) Practiced Spellcaster (for your caster base)
    3) Craft Rod

    A Bard-5/Chameleon-X, for instance, with Practiced Spellcaster (Bard), to get your Bardic caster level up to 9th, so you qualify for Craft Rod.

    You can play much like an Artificer - use your Flexible Feat for an item crafting feat, and build stuff with your spells.

    With Craft Rod as a real feat, you can use your Flexible Feat for metamagic effects - and Craft Metamagic Rods, so that you can use metamagic whenever.

    For your stats, for maximum flexibility, you generally want to keep them relatively even - a series of 6 14's is an almost ideal roll for a Chameleon (even though DMG guidelines would say that needs a reroll). Charisma is the least important one, but they're all useful.

    For the most part, though, the Chameleon is better in small parties (where the extra flexibility is useful), or large parties (where being able to backup any task is useful), but can't really replace any of the iconics particularly well.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    I won't be playing a crafter, as I probably won't have the time or resources to do so (I think I'll be on the run a lot). I'm also thinking of using the flexible feat for Extra Spell to scribe into my Spellbook any spell I want (Chameleons stil need to scribe all of their arcane spells they wanna cast).

    The hard part is trying to decide what kind of role I want to play. But with a Chameleon, I guess I don't really have to choose? But I do since I need to choose all but one of my feats carefully.

    Since I will be dumping my CHA, is Bard still a good idea? If I don't dump CHA I guess I could go for a Divine Power, Snowflake wardancing Chameleon who Rages or something.

    Maybe a Beguiler base?
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    I won't be playing a crafter, as I probably won't have the time or resources to do so (I think I'll be on the run a lot). I'm also thinking of using the flexible feat for Extra Spell to scribe into my Spellbook any spell I want (Chameleons stil need to scribe all of their arcane spells they wanna cast).
    The standard Adventuring Day consists of...

    1) Wake up.
    2) Do something for somewhere between 10 minutes and 6 hours.
    3) Do nothing for a bit.
    4) Sleep for 8 hours.

    As a day is 24 hours, there's lots of free time in there ... and Crafting takes 8 hours a day, and the days need not be sequential.

    As for the Spellbook, you only need that when choosing an Arcane Focus. It's not needed for the Divine Focus, and you can get most of the Arcane spells you'll want as Divine spells by picking the right Divine spellcasting class. If there is a Wizard in the party, borrow his (or hers).
    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    The hard part is trying to decide what kind of role I want to play. But with a Chameleon, I guess I don't really have to choose? But I do since I need to choose all but one of my feats carefully.
    The trick is to choose feats that will be generically useful - Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, and so on. At 10th, you'll have...
    1) Able Learner
    3) Something
    6) Something
    9) Something

    With my suggestions, it'll look something like...

    1) Able Learner
    3) Improved Initiative
    6) Practiced Spellcaster
    9) Craft Rod

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Since I will be dumping my CHA, is Bard still a good idea? If I don't dump CHA I guess I could go for a Divine Power, Snowflake wardancing Chameleon who Rages or something.

    Maybe a Beguiler base?
    A Beguiler base does well, yes. I generally look at Core entries for PrC's first, but Beguiler does well as a base.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Might I second Warlock?

    "Wow, I'm really fun! Too bad my invocations are fixed. A little versatility would make me awesome. I wish I had a good PrC."

    "Wow, I'm really versatile and fun! A good solid base would make me awesome! I wish I could find a base class like that."

    It's a chocolate-peanut butter moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Ya know, Strife, I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but streakster made one of the the best analogies of all time. Of all time.
    The perfect fighter fix.
    Hey, the magnificent Shades of gray made me the cool paladin! Give him a hand!
    From time to time, I vanish from the boards. Like Frosty, though, I'll be back again some day!

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Warlock is definitely nice. Extra Invocation as your Chameleon feat means you can choose a new low-level invocation every day, unless you need the feat for something else.
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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    I'm also thinking of using the flexible feat for Extra Spell to scribe into my Spellbook any spell I want (Chameleons stil need to scribe all of their arcane spells they wanna cast).
    Two points: First, to do that you'll need a caster base class, since Chameleon by itself doesn't meet the prereqs. Second, if you have any downtime at all, you'll probably have enough to fill up your book (and do all of the other things you can do in downtime, like crafting). You want to find other things to use your feat on, too.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Hmm...does it matter for Warlock if I have a low CHA? I forgot, do I need a minimum CHA for some Invocations? And my EB wil be pretty weak, but I gues this means I'll really be going spellcaster with my Chameleon and using Warlock for support stuff like Invisbility or infinite Flight?
    Last edited by Frosty; 2008-10-08 at 10:15 PM.
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    I've had fun with Chameleon gishes recently. The two builds I've used have been:

    Trapfinder Ranger 5/Trapsmith 1/Chameleon 4/Swiftblade 10
    -and-
    Warblade 1/Warlock 2/Warblade 1/Warlock 1/Chameleon 1/Warblade 1/Chameleon 2/Warblade 1...

    I would recommend three Warlock levels in your entry--they give access to Extra Spell as well as putting required skills onto your list. The other two levels are free to whatever niche you see yourself falling into most--Barbarian, Rogue, Paladin of Freedom, whatever.

    [edit:]You don't need Charisma if you don't pick invocations with DCs. You shouldn't be grabbing Invocations with DCs anyway if you aren't continuing Warlock advancement (you can't swap them out as they become obscelete).
    Last edited by Temp.; 2008-10-08 at 10:17 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    A Warlock doesn't need Charisma as long as he's not trying to make his opponents save against carrier effects on his Eldritch Blast or Invocations. I've played Warlocks with a negative modifier on their Charisma, it never became an issue for me because of the way that I play them.
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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    What invocations would you recommend?
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    What invocations would you recommend?
    What's your stat rolls? The presence or absence of Charisma and Dexterity will be key to a lot of the choices.
    [/sarcasm]
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Warlock/Chameleon is really fun. pick up spellstoring goodies as they become available. dump excess spells from your arcane or divine focus into them at the end of the day. (i'm pretty sure that's a legal tactic, but you might want to check with your dm first.)

    It's up to you how far you want to take the class. Two levels gives you "the goods" the real meat and potatoes of the class. It all depends on what you want more of. flexibility or power. Your bonus feat is a good way to get other invocations, but there are other fun things you can do.

    -Domain Feats- Pick up Sun Devotion for an undead heavy part of the campaign or travel devotion when you really need to hussle.

    -Bind Vestige- It gives you another level of adaptablity. Leave the vestige slot open until you have a situation that would call for a given vestige's granted power. Works best if you invest in all three bind vestige feats, but this works out pretty well as an emergency response.

    -Item Creation- Chameleon is the keystone of a craftlock build. (taking the time to scribe some useful scrolls or craft some useful wands to UMD, nice.)

    -SLA feat- Improve your existing invocations using quicken/maximize/etc Spell Like ability.

    -whatevertheheckelseyouwant-

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    What invocations would you recommend?
    Baleful Utterance, Entropic Warding, and See the Unseen for your leasts. For your lesser (If you go to level 6) you have a lot of options. Flee the Scene is excellent, as is Fell Flight. Walk Unseen is another winning option.

    If you want to go with a more combat focussed build you could pick up Eldritch Glaive as one of your leasts.

    Of course, this all depends on how you want to build this character. There's quite a bit in the way of options for you to choose from.
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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    What invocations would you recommend?
    First: Do you have a high or low CHA and DEX?

    Second: Melee, Ranged?

    Then I can get crackin'.
    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Ya know, Strife, I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but streakster made one of the the best analogies of all time. Of all time.
    The perfect fighter fix.
    Hey, the magnificent Shades of gray made me the cool paladin! Give him a hand!
    From time to time, I vanish from the boards. Like Frosty, though, I'll be back again some day!

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Most likely low CHA and medium Dex. Havent decided ranged or Melee yet. I can cast Divine Power if I want to melee. So far I will go Base class 5/Chameleon7 so I can dual focus.
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Here is a handbook - it reviews all the invocations. Don't miss Baleful Utterance, Entropic Warding, and Flee the Scene.

    Taking levels in Hellfire Warlock will give you more damage. It will also cause CON damage, so have divine spells or the right vestige for that.

    Might want to take Eldritch Glaive as a permanent invocation whether or not you want to melee - that way, you can take Combat Focus, Divine Focus, Weapon Finesse, and throw your boon into Dex, and be a melee character on command.


    Fun stuff:


    Martial Stance/Study
    - Great if you feel like melee combat today.
    Bind Vestige - Goes well with Hellfire warlock, and is versatile, as has been said.
    Disembodied Hand + Arcane Touch Spells - Deliver touch spells at a distance.
    Quicken SLA + Flee the Scene/Walk Unseen - When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
    Utterdark Blast + The Dead Walk + Eldritch Cone or Doom - Lead your undead horde into battle, while healing them and dealing negative levels to yourself.


    Bling:
    Be sure to get some Chausables and a Warlock's Scepter and a Codex Advocare.
    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Ya know, Strife, I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but streakster made one of the the best analogies of all time. Of all time.
    The perfect fighter fix.
    Hey, the magnificent Shades of gray made me the cool paladin! Give him a hand!
    From time to time, I vanish from the boards. Like Frosty, though, I'll be back again some day!

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Maybe Binder ? or Spellthief ?
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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Rogue 2 / Scout 3 / Chameleon 7

    Make sure you have at least a 15 Int and 15 Wis

    You can then cast both 5th level wizard and cleric spells.

    Or go more combat focused

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    I don't really know how to use the Binder class myself...
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Binders can be cool, but they take a decent amount of work to understand and use well. If you've got a copy of Tome of Magic, have a read and see what you can pick up.

    Think of it as similar to possession by a spirit, where it grants you abilities, and depending on how well you control it, it may be able to break through and make you do things you don't want to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starsinger View Post
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    I built my Changeling Chameleon so it could qualify earlier for Warshaper.

    Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem) 1/ Swashbuckler 1/ Crusader 1/Duskblade 1/Warshaper X/Chameleon Y.

    You take at least one level of Warshaper to make this work, but you can take more if you like the features.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Think of it as similar to possession by a spirit, where it grants you abilities, and depending on how well you control it, it may be able to break through and make you do things you don't want to.
    The influences aren't usually too bad, though, more like minor annoyances. And if you really need to, you can violate the influence, too; it just causes you some penalties (which might be useful in a diplomatic scene where spitting on the floor of the temple would be a really bad idea, for instance).
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Rogue 1 Warlock 1 Wizard (specialist) 1... etc. etc. With alternate class features on everything, utilizing Rules as Interpreted as often as possible and not necessarily telling everyone you're doing so... Nargbop is annoyed at excessive bookkeeping required to play a Chameleon ... does not want to play one.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    There'snot *that* much booking. Not more than required to play a full caster.

    Tomiko: I do not wish to play a Warshaper. This character really focuses on the spy role and surprising others becuase no one knows what he can really do.
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    This character really focuses on the spy role and surprising others becuase no one knows what he can really do.
    Sounds like a great Beguiler or Rogue motivation to me. Why look for a more complicated answer?
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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Well Beguiler, Bardm Rogue, and Warlock all would work to be honest. I just wasn't sure which one. Hmm...would Hexblade work? No...the Disguise requirement kills it.
    NS2...it's time to evolve again.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What's a fun Chameleon build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Well Beguiler, Bardm Rogue, and Warlock all would work to be honest. I just wasn't sure which one. Hmm...would Hexblade work? No...the Disguise requirement kills it.
    Silverbrow Humans from Dragon Magic get Disguise as a class skill regardless of their classes. Might be worth it.

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