[4e] Let's Talk About Cover

[skywalker]

So, there was this post in the 4e RAW thread about cover. There was a disagreement, which was never resolved, I'd really like to know which interpretation is correct here, because it's becoming a sticking point in my weekly game.

So I guess my question is, in essence, whether or not one can "shoot around a corner" in 4e, to have cover(or even total cover) against enemy ranged attacks but not to grant same enemies cover.

Thoughts?

[Colmarr]

Reposting my answer from that thread:

"From the DMG:

✦ Choose a Corner: The attacker chooses one corner of a square he occupies, and draws imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the defender occupies. If none of those lines are blocked by a solid object or an enemy creature, the attacker has a clear shot. The defender doesn’t have cover. (A line that runs parallel right along a wall isn’t blocked.)

(My bolding)

If A chooses their top right or bottom right corners, none of their "imaginary lines" is blocked by a solid object, so B does not have cover.

This is to allow the quite realistic situation where A sidles out just far enough to nail B (who has no cover), but where B cannot equally easily return fire (because most of A's body is behind the wall)."

[Tsotha-lanti]

Let's talk about cover, baby
Let's talk about you and me

...

[Asbestos]

Reposting my answer from that thread:

"From the DMG:




(My bolding)

If A chooses their top right or bottom right corners, none of their "imaginary lines" is blocked by a solid object, so B does not have cover.

This is to allow the quite realistic situation where A sidles out just far enough to nail B (who has no cover), but where B cannot equally easily return fire (because most of A's body is behind the wall)."

Yep. Not sure where the disagreement is arising, DMG states it pretty well.

[erikun]

B does not have cover from A.

Now, if B were just around the corner from A (ie. in melee range) he would still not have cover from A's arrows, but A would provoke an Opportunity Attack from B when firing a bow (or any other ranged weapon).

[DM Raven]

And superior cover is granted when you can only get a line to one corner, in case you were confused about that...

[Hzurr]

Isn't it stated somewhere (no books currently with me at the moment) that melee attacking a character around a corner gives a -2 penalty?

[DM Raven]

Yes, the rules for melee cover are the same as the rules for ranged cover except that creatures dont provide cover to their allies when you use a melee weapon with reach.

[skywalker]

And superior cover is granted when you can only get a line to one corner, in case you were confused about that...

Well, does A have superior cover from B, or just regular cover?

[Artanis]

Well, does A have superior cover from B, or just regular cover?

Regular cover.

[Hzurr]

Ok, hang on. Let's clarify everything, because I'm a bit confused:

A attacking B, ranged

*****AA*****
*****BA*****
*****AA*****
*****AA*****
*****AA*****
AAAAA

*************
*************
A has cover from B, B does not have cover from A.


A attacking B, ranged

*****AA*****
*****AA*****
*****AA*****
*****AA*****
*****BA*****
AAAAA

*************
*************
A does not have cover from B, B does not have cover from A, would provoke opportunity attacks, (assuming they are able to make them)

A attacking B, melee

*****AA*****
*****AA*****
*****AA*****
*****AA*****
*****BA*****
AAAAA

*************
*************
A and B both take a -2?

Hmm...that doesn't seem right.

[Artanis]

The first two are correct. On the third one, neither has cover, because you can draw lines from the lower-left (and lower-right) corner of B to each corner of A, while you can draw lines from the upper-right (and lower-right) corner ob A to each corner of B.

[TMZ_Cinoros]

There appears to be some confusion here, so here are the cover rules (so that those here asking questions can derive the answers for themselves, rather than relying on the word of someone here):

Spoiler

Show

COVER
✦ Cover (–2 Penalty to Attack Rolls): The target
is around a corner or protected by terrain. For
example, the target might be in the same square
as a small tree, obscured by a small pillar or a large
piece of furniture, or behind a low wall.
✦ Superior Cover (–5 Penalty to Attack Rolls): The
target is protected by a significant terrain advantage,
such as when fighting from behind a window, a
portcullis, a grate, or an arrow slit.
✦ Area Attacks and Close Attacks: When you make
an area attack or a close attack, a target has cover
if there is an obstruction between the origin square
and the target, not between you and the target.
✦ Reach: If a creature that has reach attacks through
terrain that would grant cover if the target were in
it, the target has cover. For example, even if you’re
not in the same square as a small pillar, it gives you
cover from the attack of an ogre on the other side of
the pillar.
✦ Creatures and Cover: When you make a ranged
attack against an enemy and other enemies are
in the way, your target has cover. Your allies never
grant cover to your enemies, and neither allies nor
enemies give cover against melee, close, or area
attacks.
✦ Determining Cover: To determine if a target has
cover, choose a corner of a square you occupy (or
a corner of your attack’s origin square) and trace
imaginary lines from that corner to every corner
of any one square the target occupies. If one or
two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle or an
enemy, the target has cover. (A line isn’t blocked if it
runs along the edge of an obstacle’s or an enemy’s
square.) If three or four of those lines are blocked but
you have line of effect, the target has superior cover.

So, questions.

Isn't it stated somewhere (no books currently with me at the moment) that melee attacking a character around a corner gives a -2 penalty?

The confusion you are having likely has to do with the tendency for the rules to give a general overview of the rule in question, then to shift into a specific explanation of the rule. In this case, cover is defined as being present when "The target is around a corner or protected by terrain." In my opinion, this is the general overview portion. The specific explanation clarifies this with the draw-four-lines rule. Thus, two creatures that are diagonal to each other with a wall right next to them do not have cover against each other in melee, as you can draw four unbroken lines from the corner of one to the other four corners of the other.

Regular cover.

Also, it's "only one or two" corners, not "only one" that provides superior cover.

Actually, according to the "Determining Cover" portion of the rules I quoted: "If three or four of those lines are blocked but you have line of effect, the target has superior cover." Thus, superior cover is granted when you can only draw one unbroken line or no unbroken lines (behind a portcullis or the like), as DM Raven originally stated.

[Colmarr]

As per my DM (I don't own the DMG):

But note that the DMG rules for melee cover are different to the cover rules in the PHB.

Specifically, they say that you test from every corner of the attacker's square to every corner of the defenders square. So in Hzurr's last example, A and B each have cover from the other.

[TMZ_Cinoros]

As per my DM (I don't own the DMG):

But note that the DMG rules for melee cover are different to the cover rules in the PHB.

Specifically, they say that you test from every corner of the attacker's square to every corner of the defenders square. So in Hzurr's last example, A and B each have cover from the other.

Indeed, you are correct. Here is the relevant passage:

Determining Cover for Melee Attacks
✦ Defender’s Burden: The target of a melee attack
has to prove that it has cover. That proof consists of
a line between the attacker and the defender that is
blocked by a solid object.
✦ Corner to Corner: The defender has cover if an
imaginary line from a corner of the attacker’s space
to a corner of the defender’s space is blocked.
✦ Getting Technical: If you need to be extremely
precise, choose a square the attacker occupies and
a square the defender occupies. Draw an imaginary
line from every corner of the attacker’s space to every
corner of the defender’s space. If even one line is
obstructed, the defender has cover. (A line that runs
parallel right along a wall isn’t blocked.)
✦ Superior Cover: Only specific terrain features (such
as grates and arrow slits) grant superior cover from
melee attacks.

The DMG appears to present these as optional, yet more specific rules. So, up to the DM, but by RAW I would guess that the scenario with the two creatures around the corner from each other means that they have cover from each other in melee.

[Artanis]

Actually, according to the "Determining Cover" portion of the rules I quoted: "If three or four of those lines are blocked but you have line of effect, the target has superior cover." Thus, superior cover is granted when you can only draw one unbroken line or no unbroken lines (behind a portcullis or the like), as DM Raven originally stated.

My mistake

I'll go back and edit my post