[4E] Rogue Build Help

[Arkaon]

We are starting a new campaign and here is what I have to work with and what I have done so far. Im looking more for suggestions as to what I could improve.

Level: 10
My Available stats to use are: (Not including racial modifiers)
18
18
18
17
14
12

(Yes, I know they are freaking rediculous. The GM actually rolled them himself on the first try and made the statement that what you get is what you get before he started rolling everyone's stats. It was 5d6 best 3, So I got lucky as heck)

The build I am really going for a is a setup sneak attack striker. Meaning I'd like to abuse sneak attack as much as possible and get the most out of my damage capabilities.

Anything officially 4E is useable, So feel free to pull stuff from the dragon magazine.

[Zocelot]

For starter's, I'd recommend the Artful Dodger build, because with the huge bonus against opportunity attacks that you'll have, you can get sneak attack much more easily. Your Race should be Halfling, because of the bonus to both Dexterity and Charisma, as well as Second Chance (Which may very well save your life), and a bonus to opportunity attacks.

At wills should be [W]+dex+cha for damage, used most of the time, and move two squares before attacking, for when you find yourself out of reach for sneak attack.

I'd recommend using a dagger, because the to-hit is extremely valuable, especially when most of your damage comes from sneak attack. However, Rapiers are also acceptable.

[Arkaon]

Any suggestion for feats?

I was planning on:

Backstabber
Defensive Mobility
Imp. Inititive
Halfling Agility
Lost in the Crowd
Skill Focus: Thief

I figure I will go with Shadow Assassin as my PP. This way I can capitalize on the "Dex Damage when Missed" Ability.

By boosting those, I effectively have a 33 AC against attacks of Opportunity and second chance to use as a minor buffer.

Though, a rapier would require a feat to get.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm afraid I disagree with all of the advice in the previous post.

For starters, if you want to do much with sneak attack, you'll probably want the Brutal Scoundrel build, because it improves your sneak attack damage. Note that opportunity attacks are usually avoided by simply not provoking them in the first place, or by taking the Tumble power at level 2.

The best races for rogues include Elves (high movement and free reroll per encounter), Bugbears (if your DM lets you), and after that anything else that gives you a dex bonus, although humans don't really get much use out of their third at-will power, at least until Martial Power comes out.

The best at-will powers are Riposte Strike (either a free counterattack, or a monster who'll focus on not hitting you) and the one that hits Reflex rather than AC. Deft Strike is fun, but not necessary because (1) you can sneak attack at range, and (2) if you charge you get to move six squares and then attack.

Never use a weapon other than a dagger. Rapiers are not acceptable, because the to-hit is extremely valuable, especially when most of your damage comes from sneak attack.

Take any and all feats that boost your to-hit bonus, such as "+1 when you have CA". Ranger multiclass is good for an additional damage boost, and skill focus stealth is good for more chances to sneak attack. Damage boosting feats come after that, because you don't do damage if you don't hit.

A well-played rogue can have CA almost all the time. Use first strike, stealth hits, flanking, and conditions like daze to your best effect.


(edit)

Any suggestion for feats?

Backstabber - nice, but take to-hit boosts first
Defensive Mobility - not necessary, simply not provoking is better. Note that your party will also have defenders in it, whose job is to prevent you from getting hit. You're a striker, your job is to hit things until they die. Don't be a 3E monk, don't focus on defense over offense.
Imp. Inititive - surprisingly unnecessary; it doesn't matter if you're faster than everyone, as long as you're faster than someone.
Halfling Agility - not worth it, just like the Elven Precision isn't worth it either
Lost in the Crowd - sucks
Skill Focus: Thief - nice, but skill focus stealth is much better
Rapier proficiency - not worth it

Shadow Assassin is a fun PP, by the way.

[Arkaon]

The reason I was focusing on using the Hi AC for Artful dodger is to weave combat.

In 1 level I will have Shadow Assassin. If my AC is 30+, I can litterally run through combat provoking attacks of opportunity and dealing 6+ damage every time they miss.

If im dealing with a monster 1v1 at 10th level with a +2 weapon it would look something like this.

I take a step back and provoke, AC at that point is 35 (15 base + 6 mod + 2 leather + 2 enhance + 6 artful dodger + 2 defensive mobility + 2 halfling racial)

Probability of miss is high. If they hit, I use second chance. Probability of miss increases.

On a miss I deal damage to them equal to dex mod (6)


So, I take a step back and provoke. They miss: total dmg so far = 6

Given combat advantage and using at will sly flourish damage looks like:

1d6+12+3d8 = Total possible damage = 42

Average = 21

Your looking at 26 points of damage on my lowest sneak attack.

If I run through the fray, (Meaning intentionally provoking attacks) I can do that 6 damage dance all day.


Ending with an attack on my objective.

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As for daggers only. Short Sword has the same +3 as a dagger, (Though yes you do get a +1 for rogue) and does d6 damage instead of d4.

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As for elf being the best rogue class. I would disagree. Halfling and Drow are the best. Halfling has a free re roll on attacks against them, and drow can make it so they always have combat advantage. (Lolth touched plus Lolth touched feat = goodness)

As welll as both those classes having + to Dex and Cha as their main stats.

----------------------------------------------------

So, Im a little curious why you say the + to hit would be better.

[Kurald Galain]

If my AC is 30+, I can litterally run through combat provoking attacks of opportunity and dealing 6+ damage every time they miss.

While that is a fun combo, you are overlooking that (1) monsters are in no way obliged to take the opportunity attack, (2) the halfling dodge works only once per encounter, and (3) if you're "dealing with a monster 1v1", you don't have combat advantage.

As for daggers only. Short Sword has the same +3 as a dagger, (Though yes you do get a +1 for rogue) and does d6 damage instead of d4.

Dagger is +4 to hit. +4/1d4 is much better than +3/1d6 or even +3/1d8. This is because on a hit, you'll not only do 1d4 or 1d6 damage, but also dex bonus, sneak attack, and whatever the effect was of the power you're using. On top of that, daggers have the advantage that you can throw them. Purely from a math perspective, daggers are the best rogue weapon by a long shot.

As for elf being the best rogue class. I would disagree. Halfling and Drow are the best. Halfling has a free re roll on attacks against them, and drow can make it so they always have combat advantage.

Drow are very good, yes, because of their racial ability.

However, the point of a striker is striking, that is, hitting the enemies. Therefore, a race that makes it easier to hit enemies (like elf, or indeed drow) is better for a striker than a defensive race (like halfling).

Note that opportunity attacks don't come up nearly as often as you seem to think. On top of that, rogues have several great "slide" powers which avoid them altogether. Thus, making a build that optimizes your AC-versus-opportunity-attacks is simply not necessary.

So while halflings do make the best artful dodgers (well, one of the best - drow are still better), brutal scoundrels make better rogues.

[Arkaon]

Ok. You do make a valid point.

What then would you suggest as a build given this criteria:

Any Race from PHB and FRHB
Level 10
Stats to work with before racial mods:
18
18
18
17
14
12
Class: Rogue


------------------------------------------------------
Off the top of my head Im thinking:

Drow
STR:18
CON:14
DEX:22 (+2 for levels 4 and 8)
INT:12
WIS:17
CHA:22 (+2 for levels 4 and 8)

Feats:
BackStabber

...

and thats about as far as I get.

Reasoning for Drow is that you can take the Lolth Feats and make it so you have 2 racial encounter powers that grant combat advantage (both minor actions) and the plus to stealth for ending the movement with a stealth.

Thus playing a character who avoids close quarters combat almost all together.

What would you suggest?

[Kurald Galain]

Well, assuming a drow rogue,

Basically what I said before. Feats: backstabber, the +1-to-hit-with-CA, and skill focus stealth. Maybe multiclass to warlock for a teleportation effect. And as soon as you're Paragon, take wintertouched and lasting frost, and get a cold weapon. Paragon has way more fun feats for you, like back to the wall, and jack of all trades (yes, it's heroic, but you won't have 13 int yet).

Consider swapping your con and wis, because that wis bonus doesn't do much for you, and +3 hp and a free surge is never bad.

Powers: Tumble at 2, chameleon at 6, and any and all powers that work with ranged attacks.

Skills: depending on what you want, start either with "all cha skills" or "all dex skills + athletics".

And bring along a lot of daggers.

[Arkaon]

Uhm. Im not sure what you mean by "Teleportation Effect" Seeing as how all you gain is the at will power as an encounter power.

[mangosta71]

If you're going brutal scoundrel, as has been recommended, pump str instead of cha, since str is added to your sneak attacks. Yes, your Sly Flourish does a little less damage by itself, but it's compensated for by having the str added in (you can arrange to always have CA for sneak attack), and all of your other attacks hit harder.

I actually like the level 2 power that lets you move at full speed in stealth for elves, since your opponents don't get AoOs against you if they can't see you, and it's generally not hard to get duck into some woods for cover if you need to get back into hiding. Plus, running away is easier in a pinch.

Dagger Master is a fun alternative to Shadow Assassin if you're not going around getting yourself attacked all the time. Triple crit range and gain CA every time you crit. I like both PPs, so I won't recommend one over the other, but it's something you may want to look at again.

[Kurald Galain]

Uhm. Im not sure what you mean by "Teleportation Effect" Seeing as how all you gain is the at will power as an encounter power.

By taking one of the power swap feats. You have sufficient charisma and constitution to pull it off.

[Yakk]

Riposte strike is a trap -- you'll almost always be attacking the target that the defender is attacking, or otherwise you are spreading damage out among too many targets and extending the total damage the party takes.

Sly Flourish gives you a sold boost to damage via Cha. The vs Reflex attack is, however, your bread-and-butter, as reflex is reasonably rarely closer than 2 below AC.

[Kurald Galain]

Riposte strike is a trap -- you'll almost always be attacking the target that the defender is attacking,

It's not a trap, it's situational, and very useful in the rogue's arsenal. It works when
* you're one-on-one with an enemy, including whenever you win initiative and rush forward for a first-strike hit
* the enemy has an area attack that would hit both you and the defender
* you're being flanking buddies with the warlord, or another rogue
* you're fighting creatures that are smart enough to not automatically attack whoever marked them
* whenever the DM forgets you have it

By the way, the OP's rogue has exceedingly high stats; most brutal scoundrels, for instance, will have a charisma mod of about +0, making sly flourish worthless.

[Swiftest]

Ok, so I'm going to go with a different suggestion here. While the +1 to hit from daggers *is* quite huge and is more than worth it early on when you're looking at a difference of only 2 average damage from the dagger to the rapier on a sly flourish or whatever, the damage difference grows to be *much* larger when we you begin to take into account weapon powers that deal multiple weapon damage.

Take any number of the rogue encounter and daily powers as your example -- almost all of them do at minimum 2[w] damage, usually higher. In these situations, having a weapon with higher damage dice is CERTAINLY going to pay off, and the +1 to-hit will end up being a lot more negligible (though always important) later as you continue to take feats, gain items, and utilize tactics to increase your to-hit chances. For a specific example, let's use Assassin's Point, the Rogue level 29 Dailey:

Assassin’s Point Rogue Attack 29
A sliced throat or a bolt through the heart—it’s all good.
Daily ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade,
or a sling.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 7[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Special: If you have combat advantage against the target,
double any extra damage from Sneak Attack or a critical hit.

If you're doing this with a dagger, you're getting 7[1d4] + Dex mod damage. Let's assume you're sneak attacking. Average damage is 7 * 2.5 + dex mod + other bonuses from feats and whatnot -- these don't matter in this case as we assume they'll be the same no matter what weapon we use.

If you do this with ... say ... a superior crossbow, you're getting 7[1d10] + dex mod damage. Average damage is going to be 7 * 5.5 + dex mod -- considerably higher, to the tune of about 20 damage. Now granted, this is arguably the most potent example of this sort of thing -- most rogue powers will be doing damage more in the 3[w] to 5[w] range. Also, you'll have potentially tons of other bonus damage to add on at that point -- things like 5d8 sneak attack, flat damage bonuses from feats, extra damage from special weapon abilities, etc. Nevertheless, sacrificing a mere +1 to hit for +20 average damage seems appropriate to me when at that level hitting should be *quite* easy for you.

With all of that said, I recommend you consider building a drow ranged rogue who uses a superior crossbow. I'd suggest going Artful Dodger to make the most out of Sly Flourish and the rogue positioning powers while gaining your CHA to AC against opportunity attacks -- things you'll be dealing with somewhat more often as a ranged character. You shouldn't have much trouble gaining combat advantage almost all the time with your drow powers + surprise/stealth + high initiative, and at level 11 you can use the wintertouched and lasting frost feats (as already mentioned) to basically gain CA all the time.

You'll have one less to-hit chance than a dagger rogue but you'll be doing considerably more damage with your powers -- even an at-will power will have 3 higher average damage with the crossbow over the dagger at the cost of just +1 to hit, and with any power that utilizes multiple weapon damage this difference will skyrocket. Yes, you'll have to spend your minor actions to reload ... but honestly, what use does a ranged rogue have for minor actions? Not much of one, not most of the time, says I.

The clear paragon path for this build would be Shadow Assassin, and you'd probably want to take several of the drow feats to maximize your effectiveness. I'd also look into multiclassing into ranger for the extra damage from Hunter's Quarry and some of the more badass ranged powers available to the Ranger. Basically I'd think of this type of character as one who puts one horrifically powerful crossbow bolt into the eye of the terrible beast rather than a hail of arrows as an archer ranger is likely to do. Both are effective at range, they just do their work differently :D.

[Kurald Galain]

Take any number of the rogue encounter and daily powers as your example -- almost all of them do at minimum 2[w] damage, usually higher. In these situations, having a weapon with higher damage dice is CERTAINLY going to pay off, and the +1 to-hit will end up being a lot more negligible

Actually, no. The charop board did the math on this. You shouldn't use a level-29 daily as a counterexample, because that's not going to come up for the first 28 levels anyway. Not to mention the existence of a PP that boosts your damage and crit chance with daggers...

[greenknight]

It's not a trap, it's situational,

That's the problem - it's too situational IMO. Piercing Strike is your standard melee attack, what you need is something which works well at range. Meaning either Deft Strike or Sly Flourish. Personally, I favour Sly Flourish, but if your Rogue has poor Charisma, Deft Strike is the better choice.

Never use a weapon other than a dagger.

I disagee with this too, at least at lower levels. If you're using a ranged attack, and you have combat advantage (which is usually only on the first round, I admit), shuriken can be worth considering since you get to increase the damage die size with them, and the extra +1 to hit won't make much difference. It's also really good weapon for using with Blinding Barrage, since that extra damage can add up.

Slings are also worth having as a backup weapon, since they don't cost much and once in a while you have to fight foes from a significant distance. Magical slings in particular are good for attacks such as Blinding Barrage.

I have posted a sample Rogue build (up to level 9) using just the PHB material here. I think a FR Drow would work very well indeed with this build, particularly with the starting stats the OP listed.

[DM Raven]

Riposte strike is a trap -- you'll almost always be attacking the target that the defender is attacking, or otherwise you are spreading damage out among too many targets and extending the total damage the party takes.

Sly Flourish gives you a sold boost to damage via Cha. The vs Reflex attack is, however, your bread-and-butter, as reflex is reasonably rarely closer than 2 below AC.

However there is a nice combo with Trick Strike and Riposte strike that can basically cancel an enemy's attack the first time he tries to hit you. (Just slide him back a square and his attack is lost.) But trick strike is not the daily you want if you're going min/max damage.

As people have stated, you want a high +hit over a high +damage whenever possible. Piercing Strike (The Reflex Attack) is invaluable to a rogue as it puts your hit rate much higher against most foes (On average, a monster's reflex will be a full 2 to 4 points lower than their AC which, in game terms, lets you hit as if you were 4 to 8 character levels higher!). And yes, daggers are #1 (treats you as being 2 levels higher), stab with them and throw them whenever possible!

And yes, if you're going the brutal scoundral route, I highly suggest Piercing Strike and Riposte Strike.

[Swiftest]

Actually, no. The charop board did the math on this. You shouldn't use a level-29 daily as a counterexample, because that's not going to come up for the first 28 levels anyway. Not to mention the existence of a PP that boosts your damage and crit chance with daggers...

Very well, let's use a level 1 Dailey:

Trick Strike Rogue Attack 1
Through a series of feints and lures, you maneuver your foe right
where you want him.
Daily ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade,
or a sling.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you slide the
target 1 square.
Effect: Until the end of the encounter, each time you hit the
target you slide it 1 square.

So uh, this is pretty simple. With a dagger you're hitting at +1, but you're doing 3[1d4] + dex mod + possible sneak or feat bonus damage. That's 7.5 average damage plus the rest.

With a superior crossbow you're at one less to-hit with the dagger, but you're doing 3[1d10] + dex mod + possible sneak or feat bonus damage. That's 16.5 average damage plus the rest. We're talking a difference of nine (9!) average damage here, at the cost of +1 to hit. There's a certain ratio (I don't know what it is, but I'm confident it's lower than +1/9 damage) at which a bonus to hit is worth more than a bonus to damage, and yes, within that ratio I certainly agree that the bonus to hit is more than worth it over a similar bonus to damage. When we're talking about 9 average damage more, however, I'm likely to lean toward the weapon that has a slightly lesser chance to hit. Think of it as being a way, way way way better ratio than 3.5 power attack with a two handed weapon, which was already really good. Of course, if you're attacking something with crazy high defenses where you need every ounce of to-hit bonus you can possibly hit to have even a decent chance of hitting, then sure -- a dagger is a no brainer.

Incidentally, a crit with a dagger maxes ... your dagger weapon damage. While this is awesome, we're talking about a 1-4 (or at best 1-6) damage range here. Even IN crit situation, which is only 15% of the time as a Daggermaster, even WITH your utility power on that increases dagger damage by one size category, you're STILL only looking at maxing the weapon damage, i.e., 6 damage instead of the average of 3.5, plus additional weapon effects and whatnot. That's a 2.5 damage increase. Multiplied by a 7[w] damage power (that level 29 daily again, heh), that's *still* only 17.5 damage more on a critical hit than you'd have with average weapon damage. That 17.5 extra damage is, coincidentally, even less than the *average* damage increase you'd have by using the superior crossbow over the dagger for that daily power, even if the crossbow didn't critically hit. Magic weapons that do additional damage on criticals leverage this slightly, but it's still crap versus the overwhelming majority of the time where the extra damage from the 1d10 crossbow will be putting it ahead of the dagger.

[Yakk]

Math in spoilers:

Spoiler

Show

Presuming a crit on a 20, we get: (P = hit chance, W = # of [W] dice, Z = average "other" damage, C = # of crit pips, Q = extra "other" damage from crits

Rapier = P * (W * 4.5 + Z) + C/20 * (W * 3.5 + Q)
= 4.5 PW + PZ + 0.175 * CW + CQ/20

Short Sword = P * (W * 3.5 + Z) + C/20 * (W*2.5 + Q)
= 3.5 PW + PZ + 0.125 CW + CQ/20

Dagger = (P+.05) * (W * 2.5 + Z) + C/20 * (W * 1.5 + Q)
= 2.5 PW + PZ + 0.125 W + .05 Z + 0.075 CW + CQ/20

Rapier - Dagger = 2 PW +CW/10 - W/8 - Z/20

Set equal to 0 for when they cross:

0 = 2 PW +CW/10 - W/8 - Z/20
Z/20 = W[2P + C/10 - 1/8]
W = Z/20 * 1/[2P + C/10 - 1/8]

Short Sword - Dagger = 1 PW + CW/20 - W/8 - Z/20
W = Z/20 * 1/[PW + C/20 - 1/8]

This ignores a higher crit-width possibility for daggers (Daggermaster PrC).

Rapier vs Dagger cross at:
At P = 0.5 and C = 2 we get W = Z/20 * 1/[1.075] = Z/21.5
At P = 0.5 and C = 1 we get W = Z/20 * 1/[0.975] = Z/19.5
At P = 0.75 and C = 2 we get W = Z/20 * 1/[1.575] = Z/31.5
At P = 0.75 and C = 1 we get W = Z/20 * 1/[1.475] = Z/29.5
At P = 0.25 and C = 2 we get W = Z/20 * 1/[0.575] = Z/11.5
At P = 0.25 and C = 1 we get W = Z/20 * 1/[0.475] = Z/9.5

This gives you a nice idea of the range.

Now, the Z damage of a rogue goes from ~11-15 at level 1 up to ~40 at level 20.

The result? It seems that the rapier might actually do more damage per attack than the Dagger does, for any reasonable values of [W] multipliers.

Sanity check:
50% chance to hit with Rapier. 1[W] + 2d8 + 6 damage = 19.5. 5% chance to crit for +10.5 damage on average.
55% chance to hit with Dagger. 1[W] + 2d8 + 6 damage = 17.5. 5% chance to crit for +8.5 damage on average.

Rapier: 10.275 damage
Dagger: 10.05 damage

Each additional [W] boosts Rapier damage by (50%*4.5 + .05*3.5 = 2.425 damage)
Each additional [W] boosts Dagger damage by (55%*2.5 + .05*1.5 = 1.45 damage)

Going up to level 30:
50% chance to hit with Rapier. 2[W] + 5d8 + 25 damage = 56.5. 10% chance to crit for +51.5 damage.
55% chance to hit with Dagger. 2[W] + 5d8 + 25 damage = 52.5. 10% chance to crit for +47.5 damage.

Rapier: 33.4 average
Dagger: 33.625 average

In short, Dagger vs Rapier is a wash using a basic sly flourish at level 1 and 30.

Each additional [W] gives us:
Rapier: 4.5*.5 + .1*3.5 = 2.6 damage
Dagger: 2.5*.55 + .1*1.5 = 1.525 damage

In short: Rapier over Dagger is a wash using a basic attack at both level 1 and level 30. It grants ~+1 point of average damage per attack attempt per [W] over the basic attack.

Daggers land "side effects" like status conditions more often.

Daggermaster PrC:

Spoiler

Show

It adds (W * 1.5 + Q)/20 damage.

At level 30, that's about:
(46.5)/20 = 2.325 on a basic attack (per attempt, not per hit)
And +0.075 per additional W.

So a Daggermaster PrC means attacks up to 4[W] do more damage with a dagger. 5[W] and above attacks a rapier still outdamages your dagger slightly.

[DM Raven]

Bonus to hit is still more valuable, think of the number of times you've missed by 1. Plus it sucks even worse when you miss with an encounter or daily power. You should always be pumping +Hit over +damage. The majority of the rogue's damage comes from sneak attack anyway and if you are missing attacks that should have been hitting with sneak attack, you're losing out on far more damage...

[greenknight]

Very well, let's use a level 1 Daily:

The problem is, that you're limited to using this once, or maybe twice, per day. Most of the time you aren't going to be able to use it. And you've burned a feat to get the Superior Crossbow proficiency, which won't do you a whole lot of good most of the time since Rogues will usually need to get into melee at some point in the battle in order to gain Combat Advantage.

Having said that, I think you make a good point, and at higher levels (ie, when you can start using ranged encounter powers with 2[W] and 3[W] damage), this might be a very good idea. Once you have the Hide in Plain Sight encounter utility (16th level), this might even be one of the best tactics you can use as a Rogue. The Frost Weapon + Lasting Frost + Wintertouched trick might also work well with this.

[Swiftest]

So a Daggermaster PrC means attacks up to 4[W] do more damage with a dagger. 5[W] and above attacks a rapier still outdamages your dagger slightly.

I'd like to see the math again versus a superior crossbow (+3 to hit, 1d10 damage). Methinks the extra 1 average damage considerably alters the equation.

[DM Raven]

Higher dice damage don't guarantee higher rolls. Rolling d10s you will roll an average damage of 5.5 over a perior of time, rolling d6s you will roll an average damage of 2.5 with continued rolling...thats only a difference of 3 damage. Your big damage comes from your fixed damage and attacks that give you multiple dice rolls. If you're going for a min/max type build you want a high dex to give both your fixed damage and your attack bonus a boost.

So in the example of the dagger vs the crossbow, the dagger is dealing 2.5 + 5 damage on average (20 dex) vs the crossbow dealing 5.5 + 5 damage on average. The crossbow would seem like a better choice. However, once you start figuring in miss chance you can lose a lot of damage quickly. If you're hitting more often for a little less damage you'll be doing more damage overall. So until you are to the point where you can hit a mob on a two or higher, you should be pumping +hit. Once you are hitting on a 2, then +hit becomes useless.

You want to guarantee your hits, especially when you have a sneak attack in the pipes. Sneak attack will deal an average of 2.5 (dagger) + 4.5 + 4.5 (d8 sneak attack) + 5 (dex). If you're using the crossbow, you're only adding 3 points of damage on average to this! Granted, your damage potential is higher, but each miss will cost you dearly...

[Swiftest]

And you've burned a feat to get the Superior Crossbow proficiency, which won't do you a whole lot of good most of the time since Rogues will usually need to get into melee at some point in the battle in order to gain Combat Advantage.
.

First off, thanks for your response! I think burning a feat to give you an average of 3 damage per hit higher is significant, considering that the Backtabber feat gives you an average of 2 bonus damage from levels 1-11. Also, while it's sure to play out differently every time, I think a drow rogue using a crossbow can basically have combat advantage for the entire battle just using his innate drow abilities plus taking the enemy by surprise and/or gaining initiative. The average encounter, at least in early levels, lasts 3-4 rounds, yes? His encounter power will give him combat advantage for two of them, essentially, and he really only needs one round of stealth, surprise, or winning initiative to get sneak attack on a target in every round of your average combat, as I see it.

This isn't to say that there won't be times where flanking is the only feasible way to get combat advantage -- that's sure to happen at least once in a while, if not more often. At the same time, however, there will also be times when, for whatever reason, the rogue *isn't* able to gain combat advantage, and he'll want to just do as much flat damage as he can. The crossbow helps with this. Lastly, as you mentioned, after 11 he can pretty much always have combat advantage, and flanking becomes essentially unnecessary (one could even argue more dangerous since he's likely safer the farther from the action he is, and a crossbow allows that in the extreme).

[greenknight]

You want to guarantee your hits, especially when you have a sneak attack in the pipes. Sneak attack will deal an average of 2.5 (dagger) + 4.5 + 4.5 (d8 sneak attack) + 5 (dex). If you're using the crossbow, you're only adding 3 points of damage on average to this! Granted, your damage potential is higher, but each miss will cost you dearly...

But after level 16 (when the Rogue takes Hide in Plain Sight), things can change dramatically in the crossbow's favour. Now you're protected from most attacks (because they can't see you) and you've got the Superior Crossbow's huge range to play with so you probably don't need to move at all. Plus you've got a big incentive to Sly Flourish everything, which means you get to add your Charisma damage as well. I think at level 16 and beyond, this just might be a very useful tactic....

(Edit)

First off, thanks for your response! I think burning a feat to give you an average of 3 damage per hit higher is significant, considering that the Backtabber feat gives you an average of 2 bonus damage from levels 1-11.

Which is why I don't advocate the Backstabber feat, and you'll find most people on these boards aren't fans of it either. I think that up until the time you can reliably get ranged combat advantage against your foes for the entire encounter, this won't do much good because you're losing out on sneak attack opportunities and that important +2 to hit from combat advantage. It's too big a sacrifice. But as I mentioned above, you can overcome that problem at 16th level, for pretty much every encounter, so after that point, you just might have a winning Rogue strategy here. In fact, it just might be overpowered....

[Swiftest]

You want to guarantee your hits, especially when you have a sneak attack in the pipes. Sneak attack will deal an average of 2.5 (dagger) + 4.5 + 4.5 (d8 sneak attack) + 5 (dex). If you're using the crossbow, you're only adding 3 points of damage on average to this! Granted, your damage potential is higher, but each miss will cost you dearly...

I definitely see your point there, and agree, mostly. I think that in order to increase damage at the cost of a +1 bonus to hit, the amount of damage increased must be very significant. On average, the 3 damage may not be worth the cost of +1 to hit (although if you're in a party that consistently stacks bonuses to hit to the highest level possible, as they probably should, this may be slightly less than an issue as you may be looking at around +11 with CA at level 1 -- that will hit most AC's at level 1 with a much higher than 50% chance).

The elven reroll factor (if you were to choose elf) would significantly lessen the penalty for missing with a daily power as your chance to hit is way higher if you get to roll twice, and you'd obviously save the reroll for your best daily if you're smart.

Anyways, I do think you should max + to hit first, just not *exclusively* -- when the damage bonus is high enough, I would consider it a worthy exchange. This approaches being on the level of a worthy exchange, imo, though it may not quite be.

[Arkaon]

Ok, so maybe im a little dense.

But what is "Superior CrossBow". Unless that is an Item that im just not seeing. I looked at all the feats and I didnt see anything that takes crossbow damage from d8's to d10's.

If im just missing it let me know. Im really liking the idea for a crossbow/dagger rogue.

*edit

Also, I'm not sure if you know this. But I would have to drop a feat for Crossbow usage, otherwise im really screwing myself out of the prof.

[Zocelot]

The superior crossbow is from the AV. If you want to use one though, you're cutting your power choices in half, and forfeiting combat advantage most of the time.

[greenknight]

But what is "Superior CrossBow". Unless that is an Item that im just not seeing. I looked at all the feats and I didnt see anything that takes crossbow damage from d8's to d10's.

A superior crossbow is an item from the Adventurer's Vault supplement. If your character is proficient with it (which will take a feat), you get +3 to hit, 1d10 damage and a range of 20/40 (which should allow you to stand still and hit anything on most battlefields).

If im just missing it let me know. Im really liking the idea for a crossbow/dagger rogue.

At higher levels (especially once you have Hide in Plain Sight), that's a very powerful combo. At that point, your character should effectively have total concealment in every battle, so your foes have to guess where you are, and even when they get it right, they take a -5 penalty to their attack rolls for melee and ranged attacks. You're less safe against Close and Area attacks, but feats like Combat Anticipation, Evasion and Mettle should help you out there (along with the fact that Close and Area attacks are fairly rare). And if something does manage to neutralise your Hide in Plain Sight (probably something with a push/pull/slide effect), you can always go back to the normal dagger tactics.

(Edit)

The superior crossbow is from the AV. If you want to use one though, you're cutting your power choices in half, and forfeiting combat advantage most of the time.

As I mentioned in one of my posts above, that's not true once the character has Hide in Plain Sight. Having a crossbow with the Frost Weapon enhancement + the Lasting Frost and Wintertouched Feats will cause extra damage and also provide combat advantage, on those few occasions where Hide in Plain Sight isn't good enough. You might even be able to pull this off fairly successfully with just Frost Weapon/Lasting Frost/Wintertouched, but I wouldn't recommend it.

[clericwithnogod]

If you're going to be using stealth, you should take Fleeting Ghost as your level 2 utility. It lets you make a Stealth check to hide as part of the power, which means you can make the check without meeting the Superior Cover/Total Concealment requirement. Because of the rules for remaining hidden, this means you need Cover or Concealment to hide, but Cover/Concealment is a lot easier to get than Superior Cover/Total Concealment.