Bull-Rushing Into a Wall

[LibraryOgre]

I'm primarily looking for 4e answers, but this applies to 3e, as well.

Ok, when someone Bull-rushes another off a cliff, it's pretty evident what happens... the target falls off the cliff. However, what happens when someone bull-rushes another into a wall? We've been playing it as "You can't bull-rush them", which is acceptable, but I was wondering what other people do.

[Ranis]

I'm pretty sure there's rules for crushing damage and weight in DMGII, and that's what I would use if I had to make a ruling about how much damage was to be done if it really, really mattered. Otherwise I'd just, personally, determine that the damage would be treated like a slam die damage based on the bull rusher's size with a bonus to damage equal to how badly they beat the other on the bull rush attempt.

[Sinfire Titan]

See Dungeon Crasher variant for rules for making a character based around this (Dungeonscape).

I'd treat it as falling damage for anyone without the variant, only treating the distance as 10ft less than how far the person actually moved (or as nonlethal).

[Dausuul]

I'm primarily looking for 4e answers, but this applies to 3e, as well.

Ok, when someone Bull-rushes another off a cliff, it's pretty evident what happens... the target falls off the cliff. However, what happens when someone bull-rushes another into a wall? We've been playing it as "You can't bull-rush them", which is acceptable, but I was wondering what other people do.

Never had a player try this, but my off-the-cuff ruling would be that the target has to make a saving throw or fall prone.

[Andras]

I'd probably rule it as the person pinning the other against the wall. That's how I'd visualize a bull rush into a wall as working, anyway.

[Person_Man]

In my games, if you just push someone away from you and into the wall, via Knockback or Forceful Staff or Awesome Blow or something similar, then you take falling damage, 1d6 per 10 feet moved (min 1d6). If you're physically Bull Rushed into the wall by the attacker (a standard Bull Rush where the attacker moves with you) then you take falling damage and unarmed attack damage (modified by size or anything else that modifies your unarmed damage).

Of course, this is just a house rule.

[Smeggedoff]

I'd work this the same way you work it if you explosive spell someone into a wall
1d6 per unit moved (iirc)
possibly making them fall prone

[Mushroom Ninja]

Well, the damage from impact alone (not including the crushing damage) depends on the velocity the character is moving on impact which, in turn depends on the number of squares the character is bullrushed.

[Smeggedoff]

oh no, don't start that again, no more peasant railgun calculus, keep it to the running into things thread

[Hzurr]

Hmm...I like how the first few posts were all 3.5E specific, after the OP said 4E.

I know that if you're pushing someone off a cliff, or into hazardous terrain, then they get a saving throw, but I believe the rules say that you can't use forced movement (through something like Thunderwave) to force someone in an square that they couldn't occupy (such as the square of another character or, in this case, a wall). As for bull-rushing them into one...hmm...maybe an extra d6 damage?

[LibraryOgre]

Hmm...I like how the first few posts were all 3.5E specific, after the OP said 4E.

I know that if you're pushing someone off a cliff, or into hazardous terrain, then they get a saving throw, but I believe the rules say that you can't use forced movement (through something like Thunderwave) to force someone in an square that they couldn't occupy (such as the square of another character or, in this case, a wall). As for bull-rushing them into one...hmm...maybe an extra d6 damage?

Now... does Thunderwave count as being the equivalent of a bull rush for this sort of thing? ;-)

[vartan]

I made an off-the-cuff ruling based on a Wiz Thunder Waving (he calls it Force Waving) a creature into a wall. I said that based on the fact that the thing would have hit the wall with about two squares left to its push that I would allow for LOW damage on the Damage By Level Chart... which was 1d6+3 iirc. If I thought that my players were going to abuse this- I might just revisit the physics of my campaign world.

[Hawriel]

I had a player bullrush a guy into a wall in my game last night. Kinda unexpected because the player already had his sword drawn. This was also in a small room, 4 squars with a door that swung in. Unfortunatly the player failed the apposed str roll misserably so I determend that the bad guy turned and used the players momentum to slam him into the wall. he took 1d6 damage and I had the player roll a balance/dex check to see if he stayed up right. He failed the check by a point or two so I said he didnt fall prone but the player was slumped aganst the wall between a dresser and the door.

[Dentarthur]

I'm primarily looking for 4e answers

Page 42.

Simple enough, just apply the low or medium damage for his level when he succeeds on a bull rush. Or maybe just do 1d6+Str damage instead, which is appropriate for an at-will action.

Also, Hawriel: For the sin of failing an attack (ok, bull rush, but still) roll, you had the player get humiliated by his opponent, take extra damage, and fall prone? Did he roll a nat 1, thus fumbling? Why should the enemy get to deal damage to the player as a free action?

[JaxGaret]

+1 on what vartan and Dentarthur said. That's exactly what page 42 is there for.

[nc-edsl]

Another vote here for p42 for 4e. It's there to simplify situations like this so that 4e games don't turn into debates about how DnD physics work every time a player does something unexpected.

With regards to 3.5 I agree with the falling damage parallel, but I'd argue that it should be based on distance-left-to-travel-at-impact rather than distance-traveled-before-impact. This would be because the victim is actively resisting, so they'd be moving more slowly towards the end of the rush.

Also, the aggressor should probably take some fraction of the damage, as they're running into the wall as well. (Maybe make it non-lethal and/or allow a reflex save to negate it.)