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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Desperate for help... need char change

    So here's the skinny. I built a warblade. He rocks. I spent weeks going through the To9B and picked feats and skills the synergized with his abilities. I gave the DM the book and my character 3 weeks before we started the adventure. He didn't read it. He handed it back the day of the adventure and said, looks good.

    Last night we were fighting in a hall way 5' wide and could only be attached by 1 creature at a time. We are only 4th level, so the mobs & i are only getting 1 attack a round. At 4th level I picked up Wall of Blades as my new maneuver. He would swing, I would use wall of blades, he would miss, then I would go and use a standard action to recover. (Rinse & Repeat) DM was not happy.

    I know that my warblade is only going to get more and more powerful. I spoke with the DM after the session and we agreed that my char should change to better fit the party. We run modules, and as with most modules, they are not tailored to fit all char classes. SO, as to not overshadow the rest of the party, I am willingly changing my PC a bit.

    I have 4 levels to work with and I will take Barb for those to keep my HP the same, but after that I am at a loss. I have thought about Frenzied Berserker and about Bard. I like to plan things out in advance, in case I have to miss a night and we level, that way the rest of the guys know what to do with my char.

    Please, any help would be appreciated:

    HU, Barbarian: S: 16 D: 16 C: 15 INT: 17 WIS: 11 CHA: 9

    FEATS: Wide Open
    BOOKS: Completes, PH, PH2, To9B, Races Books, U. Acrana

    Anything else you need to know?
    "Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the DM amongst his books for to you your characters and their equipment are mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment to be overturned by the flicking of a finger." - Raven's Cry

    (post #71 here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...=139886&page=3)

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by McClintock View Post
    I spoke with the DM after the session and we agreed that my char should change to better fit the party. We run modules, and as with most modules, they are not tailored to fit all char classes. SO, as to not overshadow the rest of the party, I am willingly changing my PC a bit.
    First off: very admirable. I've recently done something similar, ditching all shapeshifting for my druid, and voluntarily reducing my spell list to not dominate things. In my case, as a full caster with powerful forms and a gestalt class synergising it, I was certainly going to overshadow others, but I'm not convinced you will.

    Quote Originally Posted by McClintock View Post
    I would use wall of blades, he would miss, then I would go and use a standard action to recover. (Rinse & Repeat) DM was not happy.
    Right - you are at a bit of a relative high-point though. The casters don't have 3rd level spells yet, you were in one of very few situations where you can pull that off, and so on. Ok, the warblade has a bit of a strong recharge mechanism, that much is true, but simply change it to the crusader or swordsage recharge method and it's much more limited - I don't understand why they gave the WB a huge number of disciplines, the best HD, full BAB, the strongest recharge mechanism, etc...

    I'm not sure it's a valid concern - you're at nearly your strongest relative to other players, and you dominated in a situation in which everything was to your advantage. Make it 10' wide and it's not much of an issue. 2 levels later, or a TWF opponent, and you can't keep up with the number of attacks. Make it a foe that can simply overrun you, grapple you, or whatever, and things look different.

    Quote Originally Posted by McClintock View Post
    I know that my warblade is only going to get more and more powerful.
    True of everybody. Will you outstrip them? I doubt it, if there are casters. You really will slow down in power soon - remember, hitting level 6 means that you have to choose between 2 attacks and a maneuver; later on you are making a tougher choice - 3, 4 attacks, or one really cool one?

    Quote Originally Posted by McClintock View Post
    I have 4 levels to work with and I will take Barb for those to keep my HP the same, but after that I am at a loss. I have thought about Frenzied Berserker and about Bard. I like to plan things out in advance, in case I have to miss a night and we level, that way the rest of the guys know what to do with my char.

    Please, any help would be appreciated:

    HU, Barbarian: S: 16 D: 16 C: 15 INT: 17 WIS: 11 CHA: 9

    FEATS: Wide Open
    BOOKS: Completes, PH, PH2, To9B, Races Books, U. Acrana

    Anything else you need to know?
    Well, what do you want to be doing? Barbarians are cool and all, but I have no idea how you want to fight - I assume 2-handed, power attacking, but maybe not? Do you want to head toward bear warrior? Natural atatcks? Fist of the Forest? Are you really savage, or more of a Conan type? Do you want to control the battleground with a reach weapon, or are you more about single target punishment? Need more to work with.
    Last edited by Epinephrine; 2008-10-20 at 10:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    It's a pet peeve of mine, but please don't say mobs in the context of D&D. It's a computer term (Mobile Object) which has nothing to do with D&D.

    I won't comment on the ToB stuff, but exactly how optimized are you trying be? What are the other members of the party? The other players might be a good deal stronger and your DM just isn't seeing it. Frenzied Berzerker isn't playable until level 6, and once you qualify, it's a class that makes everyone else hate you. Get hit by an arrow trap and you might slaughter half your party, so you have to make sure your party has a calm emotions spell or two prepared. Int is a dump stat for Barbarians, there is little use for it. A better allocation would be:
    STR: 17 DEX: 16 CON: 16 INT: 11 WIS: 15 CHA: 9
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by McClintock View Post
    So here's the skinny. I built a warblade. He rocks. I spent weeks going through the To9B and picked feats and skills the synergized with his abilities. I gave the DM the book and my character 3 weeks before we started the adventure. He didn't read it. He handed it back the day of the adventure and said, looks good.

    Last night we were fighting in a hall way 5' wide and could only be attached by 1 creature at a time. We are only 4th level, so the mobs & i are only getting 1 attack a round. At 4th level I picked up Wall of Blades as my new maneuver. He would swing, I would use wall of blades, he would miss, then I would go and use a standard action to recover. (Rinse & Repeat) DM was not happy.

    I know that my warblade is only going to get more and more powerful. I spoke with the DM after the session and we agreed that my char should change to better fit the party. We run modules, and as with most modules, they are not tailored to fit all char classes. SO, as to not overshadow the rest of the party, I am willingly changing my PC a bit.

    I have 4 levels to work with and I will take Barb for those to keep my HP the same, but after that I am at a loss. I have thought about Frenzied Berserker and about Bard. I like to plan things out in advance, in case I have to miss a night and we level, that way the rest of the guys know what to do with my char.

    Please, any help would be appreciated:

    HU, Barbarian: S: 16 D: 16 C: 15 INT: 17 WIS: 11 CHA: 9

    FEATS: Wide Open
    BOOKS: Completes, PH, PH2, To9B, Races Books, U. Acrana

    Anything else you need to know?
    You have 17 Int as a Barbarian...what!

    Can you rearrange those stats?

    I'd do:
    Str 16
    Dex 16
    Con 17
    Int 15
    Wis 11
    Cha 9.

    I love skill points so that was why I suggest Int 15. But Come on, Con is more important than Int at most levels.

    FB is a trap: you'll kill the other party members...sure you'll kill everything but the others won't be happy.

    There are work arounds for Frenzy (getting rid of it safely so you don't have any), but really why not nip it in the bud and not do it at all.


    If you are looking for damage dealing build:
    Why not a Duskblade (PHB 2)?
    Take Improved Toughness so you have 1d10 hps +1/level which is same as 1d12 on average.


    Really, it helps if you tell us what you want.

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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyPanda View Post
    It's a pet peeve of mine, but please don't say mobs in the context of D&D. It's a computer term (Mobile Object) which has nothing to do with D&D.
    In the context of DnD, 'mobs' has nothing to do with computers - it's referring to, well, mobs: groups of creatures. In fact, that dictionary.com definition (and the definition found in most layman's dictionaries) has nothing to do with computers, at all.

    As for the OP, Epinephrine has some great points. It's very admirable and mature of you to back off like that, rather than throwing a fit like many people seem more apt to do. I can't comment on your power level, as I don't really know ToB, but if what he says is true it may be worth it to keep trying with the warblade, if the others aren't far from catching up with you.

    Again, because I don't have ToB, I don't really know what nonToB classes can best emulate it for you. Swashbucklers have Int- and Dex-based martial ability, don't they? That may be able to keep some of the feel for you. You'd lose your HP, of course.

    You'll be pretty dramatically shifting characters, I think, if you go from Int-based warblade to a barbarian. Not a bad thing, necessarily, but something to consider.
    Last edited by Magnor Criol; 2008-10-20 at 11:11 AM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    1. the majority of the rest of the party DOES NOT OPTIMIZE, so even optimizing a little, overwhelms them. My Warblade, i feel anyway, is moderately and probably could have taken out most of the rest of the party with little trouble.

    2. Conan type. A Thinking warrior, so far I have been party face in many party situations, even with the low cha.

    3. I was planning on moving some of the stats around to better fit a barb, your suggestion seems logical and close to what I was planning.

    4. I was just looking at the totems, and with the name wolfhart, i think the wolf totem works better with the char background. Actually changing to barb makes a hell of a lot more sense in the char background.

    5. Duskblade is being planned on another adventure, so that is out here.

    I want a front line fighter, who is more than a charging one trick pony. That help?
    "Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the DM amongst his books for to you your characters and their equipment are mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment to be overturned by the flicking of a finger." - Raven's Cry

    (post #71 here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...=139886&page=3)

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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Honestly, I'd keep you character as is. You really arn't that OP, or even terribly optimized. EWP: Bastard Sword and WF: Bastard Sword are hardly optimal. You could have a Greatsword and take Power Attack and Improved Bullrush, spending you attacks doing Emerald Razor strikes for full PA for 3d6+12 with your strength, or 3d6+13 if you had a +1 weapon.

    But you are not. Not even close to being optimized IMO. That you had a prefect tactic for an obscure situation is no different that the wizard/bard your level hitting a bunch of low will save mooks who clumped too close together with a Glitterdust and ending the encounter in the first round. Circumstantially, you felt pretty overpowered, but it'll balance out, quicker than you'd like. Warblades are crazy fun to play, especially at low levels, so take advantage of it while you can! :)
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    2. Conan type. A Thinking warrior, so far I have been party face in many party situations, even with the low cha.
    Ok, you may not want to rage then, at least, not in the typical sense.

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    A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn’t gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage. Instead, when a barbarian with whirling frenzy enters a rage, he temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves. While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action. Whirling frenzy is otherwise identical to the standard barbarian rage in all other ways. At 11th level (when a standard barbarian gains greater rage), the Strength bonus increases to +6, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +3. At 20th level (when a standard barbarian gains mighty rage), the Strength bonus increases to +8, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +4. A barbarian using this variant doesn’t gain indomitable will at 14th level. Instead, he gains evasion, but only while in a whirling frenzy. A character can’t use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability).


    Thinking warrior to me suggests some of the Combat Expertise-type feats, and possibly some tactical feats or weapon style feats. Most weapon style feats are in the Two-weapon fighting area though - Something like High Sword Low Axe could work, giving you trip attacks mixed in with your fighting style. Picking up TWF, Improved Trip, and two weapon focuses is nice and slow, but when you are getting free trip attacks and such later it could be pretty handy - combine it with Sweeping Trip and you can be laying foes on their backs by the handful, setting them up for AoO and keeping your team safe.

    With good Dex, you could go with Combat Reflexes, and use that to control more of the battlefield. A tripping reach weapon or something could make you a nasty opponent, tough to get around. Another option for a skilled fighter is disarming your opponents, especially as AoO - someone tries to get around you to attack a squishy target, and finds themseleves withot their weapon? Handy. Of course, controlling territory is best done with reach, and you may not like that style.

    If you want to have fun, I think you'll want to get a few extra feats by dipping fighter or something, and then you can afford to take some cool weapon style like Crescent Moon or High Sword Low Axe; you get a neat little thing to do in combat, and a way to help the team out.

    If you're liking the hitpoints/being able to keep going through punishment angle (you mentioned not wanting to give up d12s), you might consider Stone Power as an alternative to Power Attack - it's not at all over powered, but can let you soak damage a bit better - use the rage's bonus to hit (from strength boost) to take penalties to hit with Stone Power, gaining temporary hit points to protect you in combat.
    Last edited by Epinephrine; 2008-10-20 at 12:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by lussmanj View Post
    Honestly, I'd keep you character as is. You really arn't that OP, or even terribly optimized. EWP: Bastard Sword and WF: Bastard Sword are hardly optimal. You could have a Greatsword and take Power Attack and Improved Bullrush, spending you attacks doing Emerald Razor strikes for full PA for 3d6+12 with your strength, or 3d6+13 if you had a +1 weapon.
    There's an interesting ability that the Warblade has, which allows them to change the type of weapon that Weapon Focus, EWP, and Weapon specialization applies to every morning. That does make things a little more interesting.

    But you're right, in that warblades don't have the raw damaging power of a super-charger barb/fighter or even a duskblade. Instead, warblades have a pretty good range of maneuvers to choose from, and can prepare different ones ahead of battles if they know what they're facing. It's really a versatile little class.

    But you are not. Not even close to being optimized IMO. That you had a prefect tactic for an obscure situation is no different that the wizard/bard your level hitting a bunch of low will save mooks who clumped too close together with a Glitterdust and ending the encounter in the first round. Circumstantially, you felt pretty overpowered, but it'll balance out, quicker than you'd like. Warblades are crazy fun to play, especially at low levels, so take advantage of it while you can! :)
    Yep. Warblades, like any other melee class, get outclassed at later levels (unless you superspecialize and superoptimize, so as to get like 40d6 attack damage with each hand (I've actually seen this build, and it's cheesy as hell.)). Enjoy it while it lasts.
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    I would suggest asking your DM to allow you to try things one more time with your warblade, and see what happens when you're not put into a situation that plays to your strengths so well. Warblades don't even get proficiency with ranged weapons for example; see what happens when he pits your character against flying enemies. However, I really enjoy the Tome of Battle and advocate its use whenever I can; I may be a bit biased here.

    Another alternative is to try to get the rest of your party up to speed. What exactly is their make-up? Perhaps you could offer to help them make more effective characters.


    If all that's out and you're completely set on going wolf-totem barbarian, and a "thinking warrior" type, sounds to me like you should look into feats that allow you to bring that into play. Combat expertise and combat reflexes comes to mind for example. Wolf-totem means you already get improved trip as a bonus feat. I'm away from my books at the moment, but basically it looks like what you should do is focus on that tripping. It's the closest thing to a thinking fighter you can get without int-focused class features--which barbarian is NOT going to give you. Get a reach weapon and some armor spikes and go to town. Get your wizard to enlarge you, or sink some ranks into UMD (you've got the int for it) and pick up a wand of enlarge, and make sure no one can get away from you.

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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    I agree with the people who said not to change your class based on how you probab;y won't be able to dominate encounters like that again for a while (especially since the DM didn't bother to check your character).
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Especially considering some kind of trip/lockdown build would be even more powerful and to your DM annoying. I've played a trip style fighter, and especially around levels 4-6 when tripping is still a viable tactic (before everything gets too large and too strong too fast) it succeeds in gaining you a LOT of DM aggro.

    Seriously, stick with the Warblade if you can, I can garuntee you'll enjoy it, they are just rediculously fun.
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by McClintock View Post
    HU, Barbarian: S: 16 D: 16 C: 15 INT: 17 WIS: 11 CHA: 9

    FEATS: Wide Open
    BOOKS: Completes, PH, PH2, To9B, Races Books, U. Acrana

    Anything else you need to know?
    With that STR/INT combo, Duskblade would be a very good choice.

    Full BAB, INT-Based Casting, and sepll channeling.

    d10 hp, so you only take a slight drop, and you can shore it up with Improved Toughness (Prereq: Fort +2. Complete Warrior. Credit to: lussmanj for remembering.)
    Last edited by Blackfang108; 2008-10-20 at 01:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfang108 View Post
    With that STR/INT combo, Duskblade would be a very good choice.

    Full BAB, INT-Based Casting, and sepll channeling.
    Already suggested. OP said he was gonna play one at a later point. Plus, Duskblades are even more OP than Warblades at low levels. 7d6+1.5 strength at level 5 without even power attacking? Done and Done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfang108 View Post
    Improved Toughness (No prereq. can't remember the book offhand.)
    Complete Warrior, and requires a +2 base fort save, which the Duskblade wouldn't have any problem with.
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    OP: You couldn't do what you did

    Wall of blades demands an imediate action. This means you lose the swift action for your next turn.

    Warblade recovering maneuvers demands a swift action. Not a standard action


    You cannot swap a standard action for a swift action, so you cannot go around spaming wall of blades willy nilly all turns. It's those little details that make the diference.

    You were broken because you were indeed breaking the rules. Go tell that to your DM, apologize and see if you can keep playing the warblade.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2008-10-20 at 01:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    I think the word "mob" has reached the point where it doesn't specifically refer to computer stuff anymore. A "mob" is just a bad guy in a game of whatever sort. It's like the term "dungeon": how many "dungeon dives" in games - whether PnP or video games or some other medium - involve actual dungeons?

    Plus, I haven't heard many other terms for enemies that are nearly as quick and easy to say or type. "Enemy non-player character" and "hostile monster" just don't roll off the tongue quite as easily as "mob"
    Last edited by Artanis; 2008-10-20 at 01:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by lussmanj View Post
    Already suggested. OP said he was gonna play one at a later point. Plus, Duskblades are even more OP than Warblades at low levels. 7d6+1.5 strength at level 5 without even power attacking? Done and Done.
    That's what I get for not reading the whole thing before posting...

    EDIT: and thanks, I've been looking for that feat for a while. do you remember the bonus to hp?
    Last edited by Blackfang108; 2008-10-20 at 01:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    OP: You couldn't do what you did

    Wall of blades demands an imediate action. This means you lose the swift action for your next turn.

    Warblade recovering maneuvers demands a swift action. Not a standard action


    You cannot swap a standard action for a swift action, so you cannot go around spaming wall of blades willy nilly all turns. It's those little details that make the diference.

    You were broken because you were indeed breaking the rules. Go tell that to your DM, apologize and see if you can keep playing the warblade.

    A friend took my copy of ToB, but doesn't the Warblade recover maneuvers just by taking a standard action to make a melee basic attack (which is what the OP meant by "use a standard action to recover")?
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by rtg0922 View Post
    A friend took my copy of ToB, but doesn't the Warblade recover maneuvers just by taking a standard action to make a melee basic attack (which is what the OP meant by "use a standard action to recover")?
    See relevant text below.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToB pg 22
    You can recover all expended manuevers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon).
    Many innocent flourishes were executed to bring you this message. The population of these harmless creatures at the hands of warblades is irresponsible! Please, do your part, and advocate against the use of ToB, so these quick and remarkable creatures will be saved from execution at the hands of warblades every day!

    Bah Dam Crash!
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2008-10-20 at 01:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY!
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyPanda View Post
    It's a pet peeve of mine, but please don't say mobs in the context of D&D. It's a computer term (Mobile Object) which has nothing to do with D&D.
    /shrug ... I first recall hearing the term in the late mid 80s in pen and paper gaming. The etymology of the term is pretty murky, and people have used it as a synonym of "NPC" for more than 2 decades...
    Last edited by Jayabalard; 2008-10-20 at 01:56 PM. Reason: it was more mid than late (probably 86)
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by McClintock View Post
    I want a front line fighter, who is more than a charging one trick pony. That help?
    Options:

    Knight:

    Spoiler
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    Basic Knight:
    Spoiler
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    1st: Power Attack
    2nd: Mounted Combat (bonus feat)
    3rd: Improved Bull Rush (pre-req for Shock Trooper)
    5th: Ride by Attack (bonus feat)
    6th: Shock Trooper
    9th: Leadership or Dragon Cohort (Draconomicon)
    10th: Spirited Charge (bonus feat)

    You still have your 12th, 15th, and 18th level feats open. You get another bonus feat at 15th level.


    Sir Didymus
    Strongheart Halfling Knight 10
    Spoiler
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    Con > Cha > Dex > Str > Int 13 > Wis (dump): You need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. It's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance.

    Strongheart Halflings lose their Save bonus and gain a bonus feat instead. It's a Forgotten Realms Race.

    Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (Halfling bonus feat), Mounted Combat (Knight bonus), Knock-Down, Ride By Attack (Knight bonus), Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Spirited Charge (Knight bonus). If possible, also pick up Shock Trooper ASAP. Though its not pivotal for this build, it helps a lot on your Charge attacks. You can switch out Combat Expertise->Improved Trip->Knock-Down for Stand Still, which is more efficient for battlefield control but never deals damage.

    Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a pack of dogs, trained for guard duty, attack, and riding. They're cheap, fast, and also useful for disarming traps in dungeons. (Fetch the bone Lassie!) Ride one into combat, and have the others guard the campsite and act as replacements in case your main mount gets killed. An even better combination is if you have a Druid or Ranger in the party with an animal companion. At higher levels, you can take Leadership or Dragon Cohort and get something more useful, preferably something with flight.

    Your combo is simple. Use Test of Mettle to draw your enemies to you. Charge through and past them repeatedly, drawing them as far away as you can from the rest of your party. Divide and conquer. Have the rest of the party gang up on whoever passed their Test of Mettle Save, and once they're dead, have them kill whoever is following you around - one at a time - vastly increasing your party's effectiveness.

    Use your lance and shield together for higher AC, or use your lance two handed for Power Attack and Spirited Charge for 3(1d6+magic+[Str*1.5]+[BAB*2]) damage. If possible, use an animated shield, so that you can gain you Knight bonus to it while maximizing your damage output.

    If someone tries to attack you, you get a free hit on them (lance is a reach weapon) followed by a free Trip attempt (Knock-Down). Remember, no one can charge through an occupied square, so if the person isn't killed, they become defensive terrain for you. And with Vigilante Defender, Skill Monkeys and Monks will have a hard time bypassing your defenses.

    Also, its important to note that if someone under the effect of your Test of Mettle is standing 0-10 feet away from you, your next action should usually be to Withdraw or Move away at your full speed, or if possible Charge through and past them or someone else on the battlefield, ending up 70ish feet away. Don't make a Full Attack. And don't take your To-Hit down so far with Power Attack that you risk missing. This is counter intuitive, but remember that your main goal on the battlefield is to control your enemies, not engage them. If they spend every round chasing you, that's another round they're not attacking your friends. This is your true goal. Occasional massive damage from a great charge attack is just a helpful side effect.

    Keep in mind that using this combo is just begging your DM to throw incorporeal (immune to Trip) enemies and/or enemies with no Int score (immune to Test of Mettle) at you. So I suggest you buy two lances: One main +4 Adamantine Lance (maximizing your chance To-Hit) for regular combat, and a secondary +1 Cold Steel Ghost Touch Lance of Disruption for when its appropriate.

    Your DM will probably also mix in a large number of ranged combatants, so be sure to have a friend cast Protection from Arrows on you.


    Ping Pong Pete
    Goliath Knight 12 (ECL 13)
    Spoiler
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    Cha > Dex > Str > Con > Int 13 > Wis (dump): Like Sir Didymus, you need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. And it's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance. But thanks to the racial bonuses, Pete doesn't need to invest in Str and Con as highly as Sir Didymus.

    Feats: Power Attack, Mounted Combat (bonus), Improved Bull Rush, Ride By Attack (bonus), Combat Reflexes, Knockback (Races of Stone), Spirited Charge (bonus), Shock Trooper.

    Pete has two combo's. The first copies Sir Didymus. Get on a horse, use Test of Mettle, divide and conquer. Note that your damage output will definitely be higher, because you can use a large lance, use Shock Trooper to shift the To-Hit penalty to AC, and will generally have higher Str.

    The second combo revolves around Knockback. It's a feat that's limited to Large and Powerful Build races which gives you a free Bull Rush whenever you hit an enemy, adding your Power Attack bonus to it. So instead of leaving your enemies Prone, you push them back. Shock Trooper allows you to move your enemies one square to the left or right for each square you push them back. And it gives you a free Trip attempt if you can steer a Bull Rushed enemy into another enemy's square. And hilariously, all your enemies can do is get up and head right back towards you.

    This build is more powerful, but it suffers from two big weaknesses. First, since goliaths are a medium race, they can generally only be mounted while outdoors. Being a small race, Sir Didymus can pretty much go anywhere on his medium mount, maintaining his mobility under almost any conditions. If you just know that you're going to be spending a lot of time indoors, then drop the Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge and pick up Iron Will and Great Fortitude instead (sigh - I wish the Knight's bonus feat list was better), and pick up Leap Attack as soon as you can.

    Second, Sir Didymus is playable at every level, but Pete desperately needs lots of feats for his key second combo to work. Flaws help. But if you can't use flaws and you're playing at mid levels you have to suck it up and take 2 levels of Fighter, and accept the fact that your Knight abilities will be somewhat sub-par.


    Hentai, the Knight Protector
    Whatever Knight X
    Spoiler
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    Cha > Dex > Str (13+)> Con > Int (10+) > Wis (dump): Basically, this Knight has three goals:

    1) Get access to Standstill, Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer (Complete Arcane), Supernatural Opportunist (Tome of Magic), and Frightful Presence (Draconomicon).

    2) Getting ridiculous reach. This can be accomplished a number of ways:

    Play a big race (try to avoid LA)
    Reach Weapon: Doubles reach.
    Wildshape/Polymorph: Turn into something bigger.
    Enlarge Person: +1 size.
    Expansion (doesn't stack with Enlarge Person): +1 or +2 size.
    Alter Self (doesn't stack with Enlarge Person or Expansion): +1 size.
    Willing Deformity -> Deformity Tall (Heroes of Horror): +5 ft.
    Aberration Blood -> Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness): +5 ft.
    Extended Reach (req tentacle like limbs, provided by Inhuman Reach): +5 ft.
    3 levels of Warshaper (Comp Warrior): +5 ft, but only with natural weapons.

    Some of these options aren't a good choice for this build, but I'd though I'd put them out there anyway. But it should be relatively easy for you to get 30+ feet of reach with a moderate investment.

    3) Find a way to consistently deal 40ish damage per hit - not very hard with decent Str, a two handed weapon magic weapon, etc. This will make the Reflex Saves needed to accomplish any type of movement and the Concentration checks needed to cast ridiculously hard.

    Put these together with your Knight class abilities (Bulwark of Defense, Vigilant Defender, Daunting Challenge, Test of Mettle) and basically everyone within your reach will be screwed one way or another. Stand near the party Wizard or whoever needs to be protected the most, and the enemies will come to you, even without Test of Mettle.

    The down side of this build is that it really doesn't come together until at least ECL 12ish, if not much higher. It lacks any offensive combo besides Fear, though you could certainly add one at high levels. And your DM is definitely going to use lots of very long range enemies against you, so be prepared.


    Any of these builds can easily be toned down, especially considering your book restrictions.


    Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash!!!

    Haberdash the Masked: A Factotum/Master of Masks 1 buffet build (pick and choose what you like) that also works as a Whatever 5/Master of Masks 1/Chameleon X build. This thread contains a TON of useful combo's and Exotic Weapon ideas.

    Wildshape Ranger (Unearthed Arcana): Play a standard Ranger. When things get hairy or boring, Wildshape into something.

    I'd suggest a strait Psychic Warrior build as well, if it were on your list of books allowed.

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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by lussmanj View Post
    See relevant text below.
    Ah, well, nevermind then. See, this is why I prefer Crusaders - you don't have to worry about recovering maneuvers or anything like that. (Though, like the metaphorical box of chocolates, you really don't know what you're going to get when you get your random maneuvers, either.)
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Not a charge monkey? Not a one-trick pony? Play a Paladin. Or an Elven Bard. Grab a bow and let someone else step up. You'll not out class them, you won't really loose much as the Casters step up, and you'll still contribute with Bard Song.

    Or tack your bard on to the Warblade you have.

    That said, Grab EWP Spike Chain, Combat Reflexes and you've got a fighter who can ready vs. just about anything and protect the wizards. Plus you can Snag a charge feat and run up if it's nothing but archers left. Shock Trooper is not worth it this way, but a fighter dip would be, for a bonus feat. You'll loose a few HP, but you'll be able to make up for it with reach.
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Nice catch guys, I'm used to thinking of a Warblade as recovering with an attack too, I forgot it burns your swift action.

    To the OP - as a few have mentioned, you're probably not overpowered, really. If you like your character, I'd explain to the DM that you misunderstood the recharge mechanism, that you're currently at about your most powerful relative to the others, and that ToB tends to be front-loaded while casters are backloaded. Don't over cheese the maneuvers you pick and you should be fine.

    If you've decided that you don't like the character, and want to play a barbarian instead, that's another thing entirely.

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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    I will talk to my DM again. I do like the Warblade and do very much enjoy playing. I had a very optimized build designed and scrapped it in exchanged for this version. I was trying to not be in the limelight, but last night it was a 1 on 1 battle that showed him where things were going.

    My group:

    Whisper Gnome Rogue/Ranger (would & has taken advice)
    Human Monk (VoP) may prestige later (possibly would)
    Human Warlock (straight warlock... no frills) (willing to listen, but makes own decision)
    Human Cleric/Sorcerer (I think he is going Mystic Theurge) (will not take advice, thinks theurge is the most powerful thing out there, also likes "sudden" feats)

    SO that's the group I am in. Even a slightly to moderately optimized char will stand out a ton.

    Our Monk is probably the next most powerful, but only because we have very little magic items presently. That should balance out soon.
    "Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the DM amongst his books for to you your characters and their equipment are mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment to be overturned by the flicking of a finger." - Raven's Cry

    (post #71 here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...=139886&page=3)

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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Okay, this is what I read:
    Conan type. A Thinking warrior, so far I have been party face in many party situations, even with the low cha.

    BOOKS: Completes, PH, PH2, To9B, Races Books, U. Acrana
    A Thinking warrior like Conan.
    Warblade fits best, but we can try.

    Too bad XPH (psionics) isn't listed. A Chuthulu themed Psywarrior fits so well.
    Tentacle Smack! Using Complete Psi's Illithid Heritage/Illithid Grapple feats.

    A little out there, but they think. And everything is better with Chulthulu.


    Last, ever heard of a badass bard?
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    You're party has a massive power disparity. You start off optimized, the WG Rogue is optimized, the Warlock is in the middle, and then you have a Monk who spent 2 feats to make himself worse and a Sorcerer who got a worse spell progression. You can't balance within that sort of a group, just do what's fun.
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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayabalard View Post
    /shrug ... I first recall hearing the term in the late mid 80s in pen and paper gaming. The etymology of the term is pretty murky, and people have used it as a synonym of "NPC" for more than 2 decades...
    The etymology is murky? It is the shortened form of "mobile" or "mobility" which at one point meant "common people" or "rabble," as it had come from the Latin phrase "mobile vulgus" which roughly means "fickle people."

    The use of "mob" to mean a group of people is completely acceptable, and has a firm basis in language. Surely it the use of that definition of mob isn't that uncommon? I've seen it quite frequently.
    Last edited by AmberVael; 2008-10-20 at 02:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    Quote Originally Posted by rtg0922 View Post
    A friend took my copy of ToB, but doesn't the Warblade recover maneuvers just by taking a standard action to make a melee basic attack (which is what the OP meant by "use a standard action to recover")?
    No, the OP has been doing it wrong.

    It's a swift action to recover, followed by a normal attack or just waving your weapon around.

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    Default Re: Desperate for help... need char change

    If you show your DM that you were misreading things, and also make a conscious effort to not take the show, then maybe you could keep warblade, and that'd be pretty good character-wise. Not many classes that accent "thinking warrior".

    Whether you get to keep it or not (perhaps especially if you don't), look into Knowledge Devotion, from Complete Champion. You get to make Knowledge checks to get bonuses against enemies, and depending on how much you pass the DC, you get greater bonuses. Pretty sweet stuff, and perfect for your character, I think. What better way to merge "thinking" and "warrior" than knowledge checks that increase your fighting ability?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    The etymology is murky? It is the shortened form of "mobile" or "mobility" which at one point meant "common people" or "rabble," as it had come from the Latin phrase "mobile vulgus" which roughly means "fickle people."

    The use of "mob" to mean a group of people is completely acceptable, and has a firm basis in language. Surely it the use of that definition of mob isn't that uncommon? I've seen it quite frequently.
    Agreed. I've only seen the computer-related definition once before this and, quite frankly, completely forgot about it until now. "Mob" referring to a group of people has been around for much longer than computers have.
    Last edited by Magnor Criol; 2008-10-20 at 03:06 PM.

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