Paizos' new Paladin since October 10th:

[Starbuck_II]

So I was reading Paizo's boards and the Paladin is being redone, but this error crossed my mind:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards...inUpgrade1jb9d


Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). In addition, whenever she channels positive energy or uses lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum possible amount.

Now the secondary function (banishment) is awesome. Very paladin-like, but DR/evil?
What so Paladins are better versus non evil!

That doesn't compute.
Although, I'm not sure what DR to put: DR/Good?
That seems best as Paladins don't fight good often and evil creatures don't weild holy weapons.

[thegurullamen]

No, it's a flavor thing. Paladins are great against everyone, it's just that evil mofos are the only things that can hurt them. A paladin facing down a neutral thief for example would beat the ever loving crap out of him, but against a devil, well, that's a big epic brawl right there.

To put it another way, why would he have DR/good? Why would a good item hurt more against an exemplar of goodness? Conversely, why would an unholy item hurt a devil more? It wouldn't. Only polar opposites can hurt each other in the D&D world which is why good characters beat evil characters so hard. Why wouldn't the inverse be true as well? It's a pretty weird world where the bad guys are hurt by the good guys being so good and the good guys are hurts by...the good guys being so good?

[Artanis]

That's pretty much the way I see it as well.

[Kurald Galain]

What so Paladins are better versus non evil!

That doesn't compute.

Indeed, it does not. My first guess is that they've redefined "DR x/y" to mean "resist X against Y" (as it does in 4E) instead of "resist X against anything except for Y" (as it does in 3E).

[LibraryOgre]

Paladins are so good that they can only be hurt by concentrated evil. Everything else refuses to hurt them, because they're that good.

Of course, you can probably hurt them with mistletoe...

[bosssmiley]

Looks like Jason's finally grokked the meaning of the phrase 'level appropriate'.

DR10/evil at 20th level is still meaningless though.

"Good designer, have a cookie."

[Artanis]

Indeed, it does not. My first guess is that they've redefined "DR x/y" to mean "resist X against Y" (as it does in 4E) instead of "resist X against anything except for Y" (as it does in 3E).

Think of it like this:

If evil had DR/Evil, why would people bother spending the time and effort to make sanctified weapons to use against evil stuff? So it makes sense that evil things have DR/Good. If evil things have DR/Good, then wouldn't it make sense that good things have DR/Evil?

[LibraryOgre]

Looks like Jason's finally grokked the meaning of the phrase 'level appropriate'.

DR10/evil at 20th level is still meaningless though.

"Good designer, have a cookie."

Not meaningless... just not a huge perk in and of itself. It's pretty meaningless if all you're fighting is things with inherent alignments, yeah, but it's not against humans, tarrasques, and other such things.

[Roderick_BR]

I see it like "strong against mundane attacks, but evil is so powerful that only it can penetrate it's defenses."
And yes, DR 10/evil is way, WAAAAY more useful than DR 10/magic
Hmm.. I'll have to check out this paladin. This holy champion thing looks like what I saw in some homebrews, and I like it.

[Oslecamo]

It's to stop you from being killed by the misguided angry mob of inocent commoners manipulated BBEG.

It's also great for those girlfriends who like it more rough than normal. Beware of Succubus still.

[Starbuck_II]

It's to stop you from being killed by the misguided angry mob of inocent commoners manipulated BBEG.

It's also great for those girlfriends who like it more rough than normal. Beware of Succubus still.

So DR/foreplay? Wait, do succubuses even attempt that?

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

DR 10/Evil is nothing to sneeze at. It literally saved my arse in a recent game. well it was 10/Cold Iron, but still. At Epic levels, it is a little weak in some peoples books, but this is the same time that the <blanking> Wizard can cast Time Stop. talk about brok~en...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I view it as Evil weapons are specifically designed to penetrate the defenses of good Celestials and Paladins. The Paladin has a holy shield protecting her from injury, but Evil weapons eat through it because they're made to do so.

[Saph]

As said, DR 10 is nothing to sneeze at. I've found stoneskin effects to be very handy in 10th-15th level combats. 10 points off each hit really adds up when you're facing enemies that attack 5 to 8 times per round.

That said, waiting all the way until 20th-level to get it seems a bit slow.

- Saph

[LibraryOgre]

As said, DR 10 is nothing to sneeze at. I've found stoneskin effects to be very handy in 10th-15th level combats. 10 points off each hit really adds up when you're facing enemies that attack 5 to 8 times per round.

That said, waiting all the way until 20th-level to get it seems a bit slow.

- Saph

They get 5/evil a bit earlier than that.

[Kurald Galain]

As said, DR 10 is nothing to sneeze at.

Unless it's an evil creature doing the sneezing

[Sinfire Titan]

Ugh. They still have no idea what they are doing. That Banishment effect is the best part of the ability, but the DR is absolutely worthless at 20th.

Why? Look at all of the CR 20's in the MMs scattered throughout 3.5. How many of them can cast spells or use SLAs? And how many of them can just deal more damage than the 10 can ignore?


All MM CR 20's go straight through DR 10/Evil without even blinking. Balor? SLAs. Pit Fiend? SLAs and can Wish for you to lose 2 levels, then put you in Blasphemy Lock. Dragon? Enervate, many other Sorcerer/Wizard spells that utterly rape a melee character. Big T? Power Attack+Huge Str and BAB=Ignores the DR, eats you alive, lets you rot in his gut. Solar (don't ask why)? SLAs, and attacking one can be deemed an Evil act by the DM (thus screwing you even worse).

[Roderick_BR]

Ugh. They still have no idea what they are doing. That Banishment effect is the best part of the ability, but the DR is absolutely worthless at 20th.

Why? Look at all of the CR 20's in the MMs scattered throughout 3.5. How many of them can cast spells or use SLAs? And how many of them can just deal more damage than the 10 can ignore?


All MM CR 20's go straight through DR 10/Evil without even blinking. Balor? SLAs. Pit Fiend? SLAs and can Wish for you to lose 2 levels, then put you in Blasphemy Lock. Dragon? Enervate, many other Sorcerer/Wizard spells that utterly rape a melee character. Big T? Power Attack+Huge Str and BAB=Ignores the DR, eats you alive, lets you rot in his gut. Solar (don't ask why)? SLAs, and attacking one can be deemed an Evil act by the DM (thus screwing you even worse).

Uh. The idea is not to make you immune to attacks, it's a part of a capstone, to give a little edge. How many monsters will have evil aligned attacks? Yes, many monsters deal more than 10 points of damage, but remember that you are taking 10 less points of damage per attack.
Yes. There's the SLA, but this was never meant to make you resistant/immune to them. For that you have Divine Grace.
And it's a permanent ability. If it were a "x rounds a day", giving you RD 30/- and SR equal to your level +11, then it would be what you want, I guess.
And man, it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better to get something instead of just "reach 20th level. Gain 1 more smite evil" deal from normal D&D 3.5
And it's still better than DR 10/magic, when EVERYTHING is bypassing that at CR 20

I mean, hey, if you don't want DR 10/evil, ask your DM to not get it. Be my guess.

[Jack Zander]

Ugh. They still have no idea what they are doing.

Ugh. You still have no idea what you're talking about.

[Sinfire Titan]

Uh. The idea is not to make you immune to attacks, it's a part of a capstone, to give a little edge. How many monsters will have evil aligned attacks? Yes, many monsters deal more than 10 points of damage, but remember that you are taking 10 less points of damage per attack.
Yes. There's the SLA, but this was never meant to make you resistant/immune to them. For that you have Divine Grace.
And it's a permanent ability. If it were a "x rounds a day", giving you RD 30/- and SR equal to your level +11, then it would be what you want, I guess.
And man, it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better to get something instead of just "reach 20th level. Gain 1 more smite evil" deal from normal D&D 3.5
And it's still better than DR 10/magic, when EVERYTHING is bypassing that at CR 20

I mean, hey, if you don't want DR 10/evil, ask your DM to not get it. Be my guess.

The thing is that DR is usless at that level because the Casters are the only ones doing any work, as you can't hurt the enemies worth a damn due to a majority of the CR 20s having SLAs. Divine Grace only protects against spells that offer saves (helpful hint, Dragons can just use Rays or other spells that don't offer saves). This doesn't prevent a Blasphemy lock or even the humble Grease spell from slowing you (you need magic items or an ally to get around that single spell, which is a serious problem).

This also doesn't help you ignore the buffs enemies will use to screw you over. Greater Mage Armor and Greater Shield alone make +12 AC, which hurts your odds of connecting drastically unless you optimize your attack bonuses. And I'm not even counting half of the spells a Dragon can use to buff itself, seeing as they can pick and choose what spells they want to use.

This is assuming you can even catch up to one, due to their incredible fly speed (if low maneuverability). If not you are out of luck.

The DR is an increase from the original Paladin, but it still isn't helping the Paladin save his party from a dragon.

[lord_khaine]

and thats why you are running around in a team, there is a decent chance that either one of the casters will use a greater dispel magic, or that someone with UMD will use a scroll of it.

[Jack Zander]

The thing is that DR is usless at that level because the Casters are the only ones doing any work, as you can't hurt the enemies worth a damn due to a majority of the CR 20s having SLAs. Divine Grace only protects against spells that offer saves (helpful hint, Dragons can just use Rays or other spells that don't offer saves). This doesn't prevent a Blasphemy lock or even the humble Grease spell from slowing you (you need magic items or an ally to get around that single spell, which is a serious problem).

This also doesn't help you ignore the buffs enemies will use to screw you over. Greater Mage Armor and Greater Shield alone make +12 AC, which hurts your odds of connecting drastically unless you optimize your attack bonuses. And I'm not even counting half of the spells a Dragon can use to buff itself, seeing as they can pick and choose what spells they want to use.

This is assuming you can even catch up to one, due to their incredible fly speed (if low maneuverability). If not you are out of luck.

The DR is an increase from the original Paladin, but it still isn't helping the Paladin save his party from a dragon.

If casters are doing all the work, tell your fighters to start playing the game too, or tell your casters to stop hogging the spotlight, or tell your DM to quit being a bad DM.

Grease requires a save (very easy for paladins to save against a level 1 spell) and a DC 10 balance check to move through (very easy for a level 1 commoner to do).

If you are a paladin, your attack bonuses are optimized. In fact, your DM should be casting these spells on his monsters just so that they can keep up with the party's power level.

If your paladin can't attack flying enemies, you're doing something wrong.

And congratulations, you've discovered that dragons are tough enemies to take down. Not just by paladins, but any character.

Also, nice distrction but this has nothing to do with what you or anyone else was saying. Paladin's get DR, not attack bonuses. If you want to attack their stats, you should point out how a dragon is going to nullify their defenses, not their offenses.

[Kurald Galain]

Grease requires a save (very easy for paladins to save against a level 1 spell) and a DC 10 balance check to move through (very easy for a level 1 commoner to do).

A 55% chance is not "very easy".

And congratulations, you've discovered that dragons are tough enemies to take down. Not just by paladins, but any character.

Two words: Shivering Touch.

[LibraryOgre]

The thing is that DR is usless at that level because the Casters are the only ones doing any work

See, this may be true in theory, but I find very few 20th level characters sit around saying "Oh, well, since I can't cast a spell, I can do nothing this round."

The casters may be more efficient at this level, but they're not the only ones doing work.

[Jack Zander]

A 55% chance is not "very easy".

That would be 50% chance, and if a commoner can succeed half the time, a 20th level character sure won't have a problem with it. Even with no ranks in balance and heavy armor, your gear should bring you back up to par with any of the following: Gloves of Dex, any item that grants you flying, Ring of Freedom of Movement, etc.

Two words: Shivering Touch.

Sure, but only after you've dispelled his spell turning spell, and only in games where DMs allow that spell. Also, getting into melee with a dragon is not something a spellcaster wants to do.

[kamikasei]

That would be 50% chance

DC 10. +0 bonus. Roll a 10 or higher to succeed. That's a 55% chance.

[Kurald Galain]

That would be 50% chance,

No, it's 55%. Statistics is funny that way.

and if a commoner can succeed half the time, a 20th level character sure won't have a problem with it.

Nope. The half level bonus to skill checks is 4E, you know. Not all characters benefit from a high dexterity.

Sure, but only after you've dispelled his spell turning spell, and only in games where DMs allow that spell.

Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells. And touch range spells can be delivered by e.g. a familiar, a spectral hand, or archmage's arcane reach.

See, it's easy to claim that whenever the casters are overshadowing the fighters, it's the DM's fault; but if you actually look at the rules and statistics, you'll see that the system is skewed quite a bit in that direction. Your arguments here tend to boil down to a misunderstanding of the rules, or Oberoni fallacy.

[JaxGaret]

If casters are doing all the work, tell your fighters to start playing the game too

Option A: blame the players for something that's not their fault. Bad idea IMO.

, or tell your casters to stop hogging the spotlight

Option B: tell your players how to roleplay their characters. Bad idea IMO.

, or tell your DM to quit being a bad DM.

Option C: blame the DM for something that's not their fault. Bad idea IMO.


The fault lies with the class balance, not anywhere else.

[EvilElitest]

Indeed, it does not. My first guess is that they've redefined "DR x/y" to mean "resist X against Y" (as it does in 4E) instead of "resist X against anything except for Y" (as it does in 3E).

yeah that would clear a lot up


As for this, it isn't great but it does make some sense, not much. It takes pure evil to hurt a paladin, so the DR is more against normal stuff.........like i said, not much
from
EE

[Starbuck_II]

Ugh. They still have no idea what they are doing. That Banishment effect is the best part of the ability, but the DR is absolutely worthless at 20th.

Why? Look at all of the CR 20's in the MMs scattered throughout 3.5. How many of them can cast spells or use SLAs? And how many of them can just deal more damage than the 10 can ignore?


All MM CR 20's go straight through DR 10/Evil without even blinking. Balor? SLAs. Pit Fiend? SLAs and can Wish for you to lose 2 levels, then put you in Blasphemy Lock. Dragon? Enervate, many other Sorcerer/Wizard spells that utterly rape a melee character. Big T? Power Attack+Huge Str and BAB=Ignores the DR, eats you alive, lets you rot in his gut. Solar (don't ask why)? SLAs, and attacking one can be deemed an Evil act by the DM (thus screwing you even worse).

Hint: Balors and Pit fiends are evil.
Evil creatures's weapons (natural or held in their cases) goes through Dr/evil.

So that was expected. Pathfinder isn't making Paladins as good as casters: they are trying to level the playing field and make classes better than 3.5 PHB version.

Is this better: yes.

Is it good enough: you think not.

But hey, at least they are trying.

Not like how much their screwed up the monk (Full bab? Nevar!).