Setting spears against charges [4th ed]

[RebelRogue]

I don't remember seeing any rules for this in 4th edition, but it's come up a few times in the games I've played. I was pretty disappointed when my Dragonborn Fighter were disallowed any bonuses in this situation (it's been an option for fighters since OD&D, you know)

Anyway, I made the following rule on the fly: Any readied attacks and opportunity attacks made against a charging enemy with a weapon of the spear category adds 1[W] to damage. Any comments? I'm not sure about the OAs always being appropriate, but in this case it certainly was.

[Yakk]

OAs do not make as much sense -- by that point, they are running by you, and you are hitting their flanks not their charging front.

Set for Charge + Basic Attack 1
Come and get it!
Requires: Proficiency with a Spear, Spear
Melee Weapon + At-Will Standard Action
Area: Wall 3, all 3 squares must be in attack range of your spear
Effect: Any charging character who enters the wall until the start of your next turn can be attacked by you as an opportunity action.
Opportunity Attack: Str+2 vs AC
Opportunity Hit: 2[W]+Str, increases to 3[W]+Str at level 11 and 4[W]+Str at level 21, and target's action ends.

How is that?

[Edge of Dreams]

On the other hand, readying an action to hit a guy when he charges at you *IS* setting your spear against the charge, if you choose to describe it that way. If you really want to add damage for this particular situation I would put it in the spear weapon category description:

Spears: (fluff about what a spear is). When wielding a spear, if you ready an action to strike a target with a basic melee attack when they charge you, and the attack does hit a charging target, deal an additional (1[w], or 4, or something) damage. This is known as setting the spear against the charge.

[Erk]

Yakk's rule is nice. For me, I'd just let the character make an automatic AoO as soon as the charging enemy entered reach. I'd use the GM's Best Friend and add +2 to attack and damage rolls on the AoO. I might also make it a 19-20 critical threat range for the AoO depending on what was charging.

[DM Raven]

I would agree with Edge of Dreams, you pretty much ready an action to attack the enemy that first comes into range of you and you are set against a charge...

The Yak option works too though...

[Tengu_temp]

A bit unrelated, but does the spear preparing thing even makes sense in real life against non-cavalry opponents, in small-scale combat?

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's still a pointy stick you can easily brace to impale anyone running antiparallel to it (i.e. charging you). Horses are bigger and have a harder time stopping thatn humanoids, but the principle (especially the intimidation factor). is the same.

[DM Raven]

A bit unrelated, but does the spear preparing thing even makes sense in real life against non-cavalry opponents, in small-scale combat?

It would if you were being rushed by an army where you enemy is charging you in a large group and doesn't have much room to manuver. In a 1v1 fight you could use the spear to keep an enemy at a distance but if you set it for a charge, your opponent could just walk right around it.

[Erk]

It just occured to me, you could also just give combat advantage to the AoO against the charger.

[AgentPaper]

Just insert this rule:

While charging, you provide combat advantage to all melee attacks against you.

So, you prepare an action to hit them when they get in range. You hit them with combat advantage. Works for any reach weapons, which makes sense. (most, if not all, of them have a pointy bit on the end of some sort)

[Erk]

Just insert this rule:

While charging, you provide combat advantage to all melee attacks against you.

So, you prepare an action to hit them when they get in range. You hit them with combat advantage. Works for any reach weapons, which makes sense. (most, if not all, of them have a pointy bit on the end of some sort)

I don't see that, say, an axe or a hammer has any particular advantage against a charge; further, this rule makes a charge-dependent character, like the barbarian, significantly weaker. For other characters,charging does not really add enough to make it worthwhile with this kind of penalty... recall that this applies not only to readied actions but also to attacks of opportunity.

[Egiam]

I am not a 4th ed expert, but i think that attacks of opportunity with reach weapons (halberds, lances) did the trick in 3.5

[Lorn]

A bit unrelated, but does the spear preparing thing even makes sense in real life against non-cavalry opponents, in small-scale combat?

Yes. Yes it does. Well, assuming you also have a shield, some form of shortarm (or some mates with one) and about four other guys doing the same... depends on the terrain, though. That's based on a flat field kind of thing. See also: shield walls.

I don't see that, say, an axe or a hammer has any particular advantage against a charge

An axe or hammer actually has a fair amount of advantages over a spear - assuming the axe is bearded, you can use it to hook a spear aside, or render it useless. A hammer, you could do a very similar thing with, just less easily - and either way, it's easier with a cutting or stabbing weapon, assuming you angle it right.

May not be the case ingame, but from my experience, shortarms beat spears in 1v1 combat. Not sure how you could implement this, though, and it doesn't work if the spearman is waving the spear all over the place... which, to be fair, most people would in that situation. If the spears were braced, though, less of a problem.

[RebelRogue]

I am not a 4th ed expert, but i think that attacks of opportunity with reach weapons (halberds, lances) did the trick in 3.5

The problem is, that in 4th ed the range of an Opportunity Attack is only one square, regardless of reach. Some monsters have Threatening Reach as a special ability, allowing opportunity attacks at range, but this is the exception, not the norm. So in general, charging a character with a reach weapon does not provoke an OA!

I like Yakk's rule, although it's probably easier to just stick to my own, simple version but without the OA rule. The latter is not very logical, it's just that in the situation at hand, the two monsters charged both the paladin readying the attack and the cleric positioned a few squares behind him, but in the other side of the corridor. Like this:

M1---->P
M2-------->C

It just seemed fair to me at the time to grant the extra damage on the OA against Monster2 as well as the readied one against Monster1 (and made the paladin feel badass )

[MartinHarper]

Yes. Yes it does. Well, assuming you also have a shield, some form of shortarm (or some mates with one) and about four other guys doing the same... depends on the terrain, though.

Given that those assumptions almost never apply in a d&d combat, I'm leaning towards no special bonuses, just regular readied attacks. I did a quick google search on the subject and got a lot of results from RPGs and almost nothing from history.

[DM Raven]

I am not a 4th ed expert, but i think that attacks of opportunity with reach weapons (halberds, lances) did the trick in 3.5

Yes, however this makes weapons with reach a bit overpowered compared to weapons without. Another reason the spiked chain was rediculous in 3.5

[Egiam]

yep. I my group 2 of my players almost always have spiked chains.

[erikun]

The set-against-a-charge thing never really made too much sense to me. Sure, in a military situation, where you had calvary charging encamped pikemen, it is your best option. The calvary had no choice but to run foward, as they were boxed in by their own formation. However, setting a spear in the middle of an open field is considerably less useful. What, if someone is pointing a spear at you, are you willingfully going to run into it?! Sure, the pikeman could turn the spear with the angle of the charger, but then it isn't really set anymore, is it?

That said, here's a few problems with the suggestion.

1.) I have rarely seen anyone make a charge attack in 4e. Within the last dozen games, I've seen it done once, by a PC crossing the full battlefield to get to the last opponent. Anyone can simply take a move action to position next to the target, and then make an attack.

Charging is only useful if you're more than your move distance away, or if you have some kind of bonus for charging. (ie. Powerful Charge feat) Seeing as how they can see that you're set against a charge, they have the option to simply not charging you.

2.) The Polearm Gamble feat (paragon tier) allows you to attack anyone who moves adjacent to you from further away. The Reaching Stance power (Polearm Master 12) provokes OA from anyone within your reach, rather than just adjacent. The Longarm Grasp ability (Polearm Master 16) grants you an attack whenever a marked enemy moves or attacks. Trying to make a level 1 at-will that mimics those abilities will obviously cause some balance problems.

3.) Not to insult Yakk, but I would see a "set charge" ability to be something more like the below. I certainly wouldn't make it a standard attack. If you want a "standard" way of attacking charging opponents, just ready an action.

Set for Charge + Fighter Attack 1
At-Will + Martial, Weapon
Standard Action - Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a spear.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Effect: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier at 21st level.
Special: When a nonadjacent enemy uses a movement other than a shift into a square adjacent to you, they take 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.

[mrmaxmrmax]

Erikun,

You said almost no one charges in your D&D game. Here are some reasons to do it:

1) It is a standard action. If you are dazed, you can still get an attack that round by charging.

2) As you said, you can use a charge to move the full length of the battle and get to that last enemy, but it is also great for getting to the back row of the enemy in one round and still getting an attack.

3) You can charge in a surprise round. This should have been under number 1. In a surprise round you get one standard action, so in some cases, all you can do is position yourself. If you can charge, you get your attack off with combat advantage.

4) You also get a bonus to hit with a charge. Sometimes that is worth it.

Maxwell.

[Colmarr]

Area: Wall 3, all 3 squares must be in attack range of your spear

I'm not completely conversant with the rules for walls, but the categorisation of this as a wall seems odd.

I assume you went with a wall because you can make it 1-sided, as opposed to a zone? Is there any reason that a zone couldn't be phrased as "3 adjacent squares within melee range"?

I would personally be more inclined to make setting a spear a feat ability. Possibly:

Set the Spear, heroic feat
You are trained to set your spear into the ground, giving you the chance to do greater damage against charging opponents.
Pre-requisites: {ability requirements, probably Str or Con}, must be wielding a spear.
Effect: You gain +1 damage on opportunity attacks, and any readied attack that you make against a charging opponent does an additional die of [W] damage.