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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Egiam's Avatar

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    Thumbs down Tired of feeling like a tank

    I have been anoyed for a long time with DND, in that it seems to me that the system rewards sort of carelessness with Hit points. my players don't worry about a guy with a dagger as they would in real life. a sword does 1d8, they have 12 HP. no chance of death unless they crit, causing a sence of "gaminess". now DND is a great game, but I'm looking for a game that really has much more reallism in the weapon damage. True20, Gurps?
    Do any of you know of anything?

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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    I believe Rolemaster was created as a social experiment to laugh at this complaint, but it does in fact address it ruleswise. Try that one out.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Not bothering with rules at all and just RPing for the heck of it?
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    It helps also, for any system, if you think of damage more like stamina. Taking damage doesn't have to mean a character was hit, but the character had to use HP to avoid being hit. I would considered "bloodied" (4e) status to be more the time when someone begins to tire and begins to take "glancing blows." The actual hit doesn't come until someone drops below zero...it's at this point the weapon connects to an extent that a person would be brought down.

    The problem is, if you have games (and I've had them) where people are brought down by the first hit, the battles are over quickly and characters don't usually feel as heroic.
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    well both white wolf games and shadowrun have the "any attack might be fatal system", but im not sure your players would like it, as neither system have the heroic fantasy feel that D&D does.

    also a dagger can be dangerous in d&d, it just have to be supportet by a lot of sneak attack, or something like that.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Realism and Exalted rarely go hand in hand, but it does have a more "realistic" system within the rules of the world(you're demigods, so a guy with a dagger isn't an issue, but getting hurt actually hurts). I believe both Dark Heresey and Shadowrun have more realistic health systems, and are overal more realistic settings.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    I hear Dark Heresy is pretty lethal (as it should be, given the fluff).

    edit: I appear to have been beaten to the punch. Is this where I talk about ninjas?
    Last edited by sleepy; 2008-10-22 at 02:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Quote Originally Posted by MeklorIlavator View Post
    Realism and Exalted rarely go hand in hand, but it does have a more "realistic" system within the rules of the world(you're demigods, so a guy with a dagger isn't an issue, but getting hurt actually hurts). I believe both Dark Heresey and Shadowrun have more realistic health systems, and are overal more realistic settings.
    Um, he said WW games, not Exalted. I suspect he meant nWoD Core, or maybe Mage: The Awakening.

    Dark Heresy doesn't have a more realistic health system; It has an equally unrealistic one, it's just significantly gorier (Really? Bludgeoning crits make an arm explode and become shrapnel?)

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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Since Dark Heresy has been mentioned, Warhammer Fantasy RPG's wound system while also completely unrealistic is quite deadly.
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    Um, he said WW games, not Exalted. I suspect he meant nWoD Core, or maybe Mage: The Awakening.

    Dark Heresy doesn't have a more realistic health system; It has an equally unrealistic one, it's just significantly gorier (Really? Bludgeoning crits make an arm explode and become shrapnel?)
    That Is realistic compared to the source material. In standard W40k getting hit with ANY weapon causes your whole torso to explode.
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    That Is realistic compared to the source material. In standard W40k getting hit with ANY weapon causes your whole torso to explode.
    That's not realistic. That's accurate to source material. They're different things. I know this is somewhat Android of me, but he didn't ask for accurate to wh40k source material, he asked for realistic.

    Oh, and on the note of WW earlier, they do have wound systems that are closer to realistic (Even Exalted) then DnD. I still think you're looking for a system where every hit does a specific thing to a specific body part though, so can the OP clarify what he wants by 'realistic', I guess?

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Quote Originally Posted by RPGuru1331 View Post
    Um, he said WW games, not Exalted. I suspect he meant nWoD Core, or maybe Mage: The Awakening.

    Dark Heresy doesn't have a more realistic health system; It has an equally unrealistic one, it's just significantly gorier (Really? Bludgeoning crits make an arm explode and become shrapnel?)
    Uhh, I was talking to the OP, I didn't even see the post above mine.

    Also, he seems to be asking for a system where attacks are very danger.us pretty much no matter who you are, and nothing I've heard about Dark Heresy seems to contradict that.

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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Gurps is generally far more lethal than D&D; weapons do damage based your strength, and there's no "gain another HD" mechanic.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    One thing I've done to combat this in the past has been to add 'cinematic combat' to my games. It is inherently different than initative based combat and is used to represent deadly situations that aren't fights. For instance if you have a BBEG with his knife to the king's neck, that scene doesn't play out properly in ordinary D&D.

    I forget what my exact rules were, but the aggressor could always coup-de-gras on his opponent on a successful attack. The defender was pretty much undefended. People in the scene could turn it into a combat scene by making some sort of initiative roll versus the aggressor's reflex save. It would become an initiative combat scene whatever the result of the roll, but rolling determined if he was thwarted or got to coup-de-gras.
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Play Shadowrun. Pretty much unless you are a dragon or a specially built troll tank you can still die from 1-2 hits with any of the games weapons. Granted you still can build trolls that can soak hits from rocket launchers.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Try FATAL- they have charts for hitting most anything from your opponents Xyphoid Process to their Rectum. That's super realistic, right?...

    Right?

    (Disclaimer- I'm not actually endorsing FATAL in any way. Truly, it is an awful game. Don't try it.)

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    GURPS is pretty lethal. A single stab with a pointy weapon can kill people, if you hit them somewhere vital. Take -3 to hit to go for a vital organ, and if you manage to hit (and it isn't dodged/parried) you'll deal triple damage. Since a very slightly above average ST person (ST 11) deals 1d+1impaling with a thrusting broadsword, your average hit will force conciousness checks on most unarmoured people, and a maximum damage roll will have a chance of killing someone outright (plus of course the risk of them losing consciousness and bleeding out).

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Thanks guys!
    I have to say i'm most intrigued by Gurps. I've heard that true20 does not even have a hp system. Is this true (pardon the pun)?
    ty raven for the stamina idea.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Egiam View Post
    I've heard that true20 does not even have a hp system. Is this true (pardon the pun)?
    It's true. On the other hand, the system it does have is clumsy enough that it's generally the first thing to go when people houserule True20.
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Try RuneQuest. It's as gritty as you like.

    True20 uses a 'Toughness Save' mechanic (the same one from Mutants and Masterminds). If you get hit you make a Toughness Save against the damage - succeed and you shrug it off. Fail and you suffer one of several wound states depending on how badly you failed and what you were hit with.

    The thing to note is that Toughness saves escalate more slowly than damage output (although that doesn't exactly skyrocket), so when someone skilled catches you a hit with a greataxe... well, ouch.
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Fudge, it works, is rules light, and a better hit(as in you go higher over their defense) hits harder. Its usually not instantly lethal, but there is always a chance of someone one shotting you with a dagger, plus if you want lethal you just use the meaner wound track(this replaces hit points, and is in my opinion much better). Its not super realistic, but it is decently realistic on the lethality thing, and even a non incapacitating hit can cause serious penalties, and those are relatively easy to inflict.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Traveller apparently handles it quite realistically, in that if you get hit, you're probably going down. Hard.

    Best way to survive in that game is to never get hit.

    I also like the Wound Point and Vitality Point system found in Unearthed Arcana (and used in Star Wars d20) as it makes Critical hits really, really dangerous.
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Universal Decay. You have a low number of hit points, and most low level encounters aren't lethal. Now when you get to high levels, and you're wielding that uber barbed great war spear of doom? If I so much as tap anyone in the part with what I'm wielding (minimum damage) they are dropped to zero.

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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Speaking of free you can download Fudge for free, so you can at least take a look at the wound track for further notice, as it would be pretty easy to port it to D&D.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    What about Alternity? There's plenty of deadliness to weapons in that system. As you will find very quickly if exposed to fully automatic weapons.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    The 'HP are also evasion' thing is often invoked for D&D, but absolutely does not extend to all systems. GURPS, and I think some of the other systems mentioned above, use hit points, but they really do mean injury. And that injury, at least in GURPS, really will mess you up right quick. A guy with a knife almost certainly won't kill you in one hit, unless he's quite strong, getting a lucky critical, or stabbing you in the eye, but he may mess you up pretty badly.

    An x4 critical has nothing on a 'no active defense allowed' critical...

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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    I would have to put a vote in for GURPS. It has a realistic weapon damage charts and has the option for incredible successes if the rolls line up (3d6 roll to hit so there is a 1 in 216 chance to roll a 18).

    Fun to play and it is setup so that you can play in any setting and incorporate elements from and setting into your game. Gives incredible creative flexibility for the GM.

    The only drawback is that you need to have fairly intelligent players to make the game smooth. Have to be able to add up 3d6 in their head instantly or gameplay bogs down. Character creation is also time consuming but very rewarding as you can create any character you can imagine. Once you have made all the calculations that you need to do for weapon damage, dodge, shield block, etc the game runs smoothly.

    As for the damage system you can use optional hit locations so that limbs can be damaged or crippled. Specific locations can be targeted to increase damage. Armor works nicely too. It applys damage resistance and well as deflection. Makes heavily armored opponents tough, but specific weapons have bonuses to penetrating armor.

    The aspect of gurps that I enjoyed the most was the ability to create any charater that I wanted and have the rules to support roleplaying (oh yeah, gurps is a great way for new players to expand their roleplaying skills)
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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Victoriana 1st Edition has what I consider as realistic a damage system as I would want.

    Characters have 3 point pools: health, stun, and resolve. These pools range in size from 5 points to 40, very occasionally more, and don't increase without significant expenditure of experience--so much so that it's just not worth it, really. Damage in any pool applies a penalty to all rolls, both active and defensive, so that a wounded character quickly becomes much more wounded if he stays in combat. Damage ranges from 1d6+1 (a punch from the weakest possible character) up to 6d6+8 for a saber weilded by a very strong person, so a hit is extremely likely to kill someone. Most guns do about as much damage, but since you can fire two barrels from a shotgun or "hose them down" with a gatling gun, gunfire is quite deadly. Furthermore, dodging a bullet is outright impossible, and it's all down to finding cover and hoping the other fellow is a poor shot.

    I think Victoriana's combat system is very near to what Egiam's looking for. Of course, the setting is Victorian England, and the mechanics are very much tied to that idea, so running Victoriana hinges much more on whether you'd like to pretend to be a nineteenth century Briton or not.

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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    thanks tellah.
    I guess I would like a generic system (gurps), because of the genre freedom, but Victoriana looks promising. Can you or anyone else tell me more about this?

    I've been thinking about movie action, and I see that the characters rarely take a hit (think aragorn). when they get hit, it is usually really crippeling.
    what i think i would like to see is a situation where the characters are hit slightly less, and hits, while not too lethal, debilitate, like in Star wars episode six, where leia is hit, but can still shoot with penalty. does something like this exist, or am I fantasizing?

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    Default Re: Tired of feeling like a tank

    Fudge has this, just I need to go dig something up to find the whole hit negation aspect. Its right here.
    Mix hit points in disguise with dramatic events, use defensive stances, and boom, exactly what you wanted.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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