OOTS #603 - The Discussion Thread

[V Junior]

I forgot that outsiders can't be raised. Let's hope Celia's smart enough to stay out of trouble...

Also, WIN. Greysky City isn't really a very nice place, but when the BEST ARCHER for AGES AROUND goes up against the ENITRE Thieve's Guild, you have a battle that the bards will sing about for years.

Maybe Elan will write it.

[Koshiro]

The last time she knew it was a curse she was PLANNING to abandon Belkar and not bring him along.

No, last time she actually knew who Belkar had killed she was planning to do that.
But she doesn't know now.

And by "bring along" I naturally meant... well basically everything. Geeze, if they really loath this evil monster so much and do not want his help in a fight either, why bother with him at all? The character, or more precisely, his role in the strip, has become an annoyance anyway.

[the_tick_rules]

Haha, talk to him to distract him to get the initative, brilliant. I forgot the outsider ressurrection clause, this adds a whole new spice to the fight. You know technically writing love to elan instead of writing give my love to elan one could interpet that as she told durkon to love elan himself.

[Jammeez]

Just posting for Giant's sake. Enjoyment of another's creation should never go quietly unexpressed.

Feel the love, Rich!

[Georlik]

Great. Thank you for this strip. "Ressurection(s)" made me burst with laughter.

[Shatteredtower]

Before I respond to other comments, I must state that my reservations with regard to strip #602 are withdrawn for the moment. Even if Haley can't keep her old associates away from the cleric long enough for him to cast his spell, there's at least a meaningful effort to accomplish something productive, rather than suddenly throw up roadblocks which leave the party helpless to do anything in response.

On the other hand, that cleric better not be interupted in his spellcasting efforts by something as trivial as having Belkar vomit over him, unless it's immediately followed by having him do something else that improves the party's current status. I don't see it happening, but...

Spoiler

Show

...raising Roy would be a good one. Having that only come out at Haley's most desperate hour, with the fighter announcing his presence in a suitably dramatic rescue, would be a nice touch -- though I'd rather see her get everyone out of this mess all on her own.

And now, to other comments, each doubtlessly addressed a dozen times as I wrote this:

And having archers covering the melee one is totally out of thieves mentality, I suppose.

If it's a single file entry, Toby would have been providing Haley with a +4 cover bonus to AC. If they're too far back, they probably won't have line of sight to anyone standing in the basement, and if they're too far ahead, they and the person they're supposed to be covering are more easily targetted by attacks that affect an area, such as cloudkill (they don't know what spells the sylph can cast), blade barrier (or the cleric, though fire-based spells are likely), or some trap (whether it's one Pete "forgot" to mention or something Hannibal Haley rigged up on short notice, not that the 3.5 rules for trapbuilding allowed for that).

I'm the only one to notice that they are in a fully lighted underground, in a place that is supposedly secret and held by a blind guy?

In this strip, Durkon notes that his teammates never seem to carry a lantern, but sufficient lighting was never a problem for them while in the dungeon.

Should not be at least partially dark, allowing thieves to crawl in?

I refer you to the lines of a certain would-be assassin-and-ladies-man, pointing to a crucial, fundamental flaw in a certain shadow dancer's plans. Please disregard the part about morons, as it doesn't apply.

Also, one of the funny things about rogues is the fact that they can't perform sneak attacks against targets that are standing in dimly lit conditions -- such as candlelight or a dusky cellar. While this isn't likely to work in their favour against Haley (performing sneak attacks against a higher level rogue is nearly impossible in most conditions), it's the sort of edge a bunch of rogues are going to want against a pair of mid- to high-level spellcasters.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0229.htmlNo, thieves charge frontally, one by one, on a ranged defender.[/QUOTE]

And two spellcasters. Don't forget the two spellcasters. I'm not saying their tactics are ideal, but there were sound reasons for sending a lone scout in first.

I think the thing about outsiders not being able to be raised is a big, fat tell.

Maybe, but I think it was done mainly as a contrast to all the things Celia didn't know about humans. Neither Roy nor Haley were aware of this critical fact about the sylph, just as she didn't know they couldn't generate lightning. (And why would she know that? Considering the electricity between her and Roy, he should be flattered for encouraging such a mistake!)

Can't see Haley giving away a friend's body, though, especially when the friend happens to be dating her leader. Abandoning it in a life-or-death situation, sure, but not using it as a bargaining chip.

It just occurred to me, why did Haley automatically assume that Belker's curse had been activated by him killing one of the Oracle's helpers?

Others have pointed out that she knew it had to have happened in the Oracle's valley, since he wasn't cursed going in. His killing of the gnome merchant made it natural to assume (correctly)00 he might have killed someone who didn't have it coming while he was there.

[QUOTE=Starscream;5158078You'd think she would assume either that the cause was that Roy's body had gotten too far away at some point, or that the Oracle had used his powers to determine the code word.[/quote]

Neither seems as likely as the possibility that Belkar stabbed someone who didn't have it coming. The idea that the Oracle might have triggered the code word is unlikely to have occured to her because she doesn't know anything about the Oracle, and has every reason to assume he's trustworthy -- especially when compared to Belkar.

True, her decision would have been the same if Belkar had willingly triggered the curse while trying to defend her from a horde of hobgoblins Redcloak had sent to the valley on some sort of business. The reasoning behind it would still be just as sound in such a case, though unfortunate. However, note that when she did know what happened, she was just going to abandon him. Now that she knows only that the mark was triggered, but not why, she's maintaining some level of responsibility for his well-being -- at least until Roy returns to decide the halfling's fate.

Strange how Sending didn't seem to have a 10-minute casting time when Nale was using it to send his message back in strip #337...

Well, while the Giant might have bent the rules for humour value, we can't be sure it didn't take that long between castings. We really don't know how long passes between each panel. Granted, it seems unlikely Roy would have just stood around waiting like that for close to two hours...

As for trigger time for a scroll, it's related to casting time. The same rules that state a scroll is triggered by a standard action also state that this is subject to the spell's casting time. Yes, there are multiple ways to interpret this rule, but all of them make more sense than the one that states that using a scroll to cast an arcane spell while wearing armor carries a risk of spell failure if the spell has a somatic component (even though the scroll's user doesn't need its material component), or that a scroll can carry a spell triggered without the use or either verbal or somatic components.

I fear this strip is another indication of Belkar's ongoing transformation from "anarchist black comedy source" to "butt of obnoxious moral highhorsery". I don't particularly like this development.

I'm not fond of it either. He's always been trouble, but it's worked in the party's favour at critical times. Then again, without him, things probably would never have come to a head with Miko. (The inn that became the last straw between her and Roy would still be standing, for one thing.) A falling out was looking rather inevitable, and it's difficult to see any other way it could be stalled for much longer. Still, the current situation risks becoming tedious in very short order. Hopefully, some other means can be found for holding things together again, at least for a little while longer, while still allowing Belkar to be useful at least some of the time.

[Mr. Scaly]

I call foul on Haley. She said she doubted they could survive an attack by so many mid to high level rogues then dices one no problem and calls for more. Understandable since it's a sneak attack and she won initiative, but I'm hoping for a 'fight' not a massacre.

[SoC175]

Btw, anyone think Celia's reference to her not being able to be raised is a bad sign?

Actually she is wrong about it.

Outsider can't be raised with raise dead, that is correct.However that's only because that is the least powerfull spell to bring back the dead. The most powerfull variant (True Ressurection) can also raise outsiders.

If TS is too highlevel to obtain there is also a lower level spell called Raise Outsider which works just like Raise Dead only that it raises outsiders

Not exactly. If you are a rogue four levels higher than a rogue with uncanny dodge, the anti-sneak attack portion is negated.

No, it's not.

Being a rogue four levels higher negates the "can't be flanked part" and thus you can once again get sneak attacks for flanking.

The "doesn't lose Dex mod to AC part" is never negated.

Isn't Celia summoned? So doesn't that preclude the whole dying thing?

More likely called. Summoned she would have vanished days ago, but called she stays forever (until she leaves or is called to somewhere else)

[hamishspence]

There is nothing in description of "spell completion items" in DMG that says it's subject to normal casting time. It stresses, repeatedly, spell is "mostly finished" Nor have I found anything in Rules Compendium about it.

Is this an errata?

[ChowGuy]

I call foul on Haley. She said she doubted they could survive an attack by so many mid to high level rogues then dices one no problem and calls for more. Understandable since it's a sneak attack and she won initiative, but I'm hoping for a 'fight' not a massacre.

Taking out one rogue is not the same as taking out all of them, which is what she needs to do to survive the fight. High level or not, she can't hope to take them all on at once any more then Therkla could before someone gets in "a round or two while [her] attention is elsewhere." Or as I recall someone once put it "In my experience, it's the second man over the wall who gets the glory. The first man just gets to be dead."

[hamishspence]

Player's handbook "Is the equivalent of casting a spell" also "Is a standard action unless specified in the item description"

Player's handbook glossary "Is a standard action". DMG "Is a standard action"

[nybbler]

For those complaining about the thieves guild's bad tactics: Rules of drama say this can't be a real challenge until she faces her personal rival Crystal.

[nleseul]

Nah, I doubt he could resist a little mindless mayhem if he gets cured, which I think he will. And I can see Belkar "checking" to make sure the MoJ is gone by killing the nameless cleric.

If Belkar gets cured in this scene—which I expect he will—it will probably be due to the cleric panicking after the rogues overwhelm Haley and Celia and break down the saferoom door. In all likelihood, the rogues will regard Belkar as an ally of Haley and the cleric, and Belkar's self-preservation instincts should be sufficient for him to leave the cleric alive for healing.

Furthermore, think about it this way. If Belkar tries to side with the rogues, he gets to kill one cleric. If he sides with the cleric, he gets to kill several dozen rogues.

[maxon]

Oh crap .... Go Haley! (on your own) Winces.

I'm going to shut my eyes now and wait till it's over.

[hamishspence]

Can anyone tell me where we're getting "same casting time as spell" from?

[Animefunkmaster]

So... Haley is probably not an outsider.

[Tundar]

Go Haley!

And Celia! It's time for some electrifications.

[Linkavitch]

I think the cleric is going to cure Belkar´s condition. That´s the better chance of himself (and Celia, and Haley) surviving this encounter.

Without Haley telling him to, or giving permission? Hmm, good possibility, as the cleric did seem to want to stick around as long as possible, and having Belkar alive might (repeat might) heighten that chance. Or, Belkar might kill him, as soon as possible, like an alcohol addict goes to the bar right after work to get drunk. . .

Oh, yeah. HAHAHAHA! That comic made me laugh. Thanks, Giant!

[hamishspence]

yes, wasn't Dungeon of Dorukan the last time we saw her electrocute something?

Nale: "Totally worth it"

[Mr. Scaly]

Taking out one rogue is not the same as taking out all of them, which is what she needs to do to survive the fight. High level or not, she can't hope to take them all on at once any more then Therkla could before someone gets in "a round or two while [her] attention is elsewhere." Or as I recall someone once put it "In my experience, it's the second man over the wall who gets the glory. The first man just gets to be dead."

Well yeah...that's why I said the first shot was understandable. I'm worried that it will turn into a classic heroic massacre though.

[Superglucose]

Kick their butts, haley.

[Laurentio II]

yes, wasn't Dungeon of Dorukan the last time we saw her electrocute something?

Nale: "Totally worth it"

No, it was the week before (for them), when he blasted a bunch of golems AND a door. Two separate spells.
EDIT: and the bridge. Three.

[RosesOnConcrete]

Oh man, I freaking love Haley right now. Atta girl. And yeah, Celia, mentioning that RD wouldn't work on you basically guarantees that you'll be needing it soon. *cringe*

[Ikialev]

...she can't be raised? 0o

[hamishspence]

Ah, good point, maybe it should have been "Someone" Golems aren't exactly Someone, more Something.

[Resist77]

"you and I need to find a way to stall a few dozen mid-to-high level rogues for 100 rounds"

ummm.....
?

[argil7]

Wow that was awsome, simplly awsome, there are no other ways of conveing the awsomenis of this come but with awsome!

[joela]

"That's George at the top of the stairs. He beats his wife. Full attack!"

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Ragn Charran]

Couple of random thoughts...

1. A lot of people are saying Belkar won't be able to help if cured because he's locked in the room. Note that we never see the door close - Haley and Celia walk out, then it's out of frame.

2. Celia's useless in this fight. She can blast lightning, but what good is that against a group of targets with Evasion? Anyone it threatens is no threat to Haley anyways.

EDIT - I'm forgetting something - members don't have to be rogues (nor should they be, multiple skillsets are a must in any organization), so Celia can help against any combat or caster types. My bad.

3. What's the casting time on remove curse? IF it's only a round, the cleric would be absolutely stupid not to do it before the sending. Having Belkar in the mix - even if he can't get out of the room - is virtually guaranteed to pay back that round. Well, at least in the perspective of someone who doesn't know Belkar's a psychopathic killer.

[mhensley]

Casting Time: 1 standard action