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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default What's with the Belkar hate?

    Belkar used to be a pretty valuable member of the team and yet, from the recent strips it's seems as if his allies don't want anything to do with him, as if they suddenly noticed he is Chaotic Evil. Am i the only one bothered by this? If Haley hates Belkar's evil acts why did she adventure with him in the first place? She even went as far as to say he is a liability despite Belkar having saved the Order at least twice.

    And please don't tell me Belkar can't be trusted. He has had a hundred opportunities to turn on the Order and still chooses to stay loyal. Heck, he and Elan are the only ones still happy to be on the team, with everyone else being disgusted with each other.

    Sorry about the rant, it's just a bit sad to see what was a fun character being treated badly by his "allies".

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    I think it's more Belkar getting less amd less reliable without Roy to keep him in check.

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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Belkar has not become less reliable. Last time I checked, Roy wasnt around when Tsuiko offered Belkar a chance to sell out, and he chose not to. Haley and Celia are going to see just how valuable an ally he is now. (Unless Haley somehow pulls a deux ex machina and takes out the whole thieves guild)

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    As in- once he's gotten out of city he's killed one Innocent Bystander and one Oracle.

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    Maybe they should just keep owl's wisdom on him the whole time....

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    As in- once he's gotten out of city he's killed one Innocent Bystander and one Oracle.
    And he also killed Goblins who had surrendered as well as a Lawful Good Kobold, and you didn't see Roy whining about it.

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike62 View Post
    Belkar has not become less reliable. Last time I checked, Roy wasnt around when Tsuiko offered Belkar a chance to sell out,
    Belkar later expressed regret that he didn't sell out, this is a very poor example.
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Belkar: "I'll just harvest their kidneys and catch up"
    Roy: "Belkar!!"

    And how was Roy to know Kobold was LG? He never got to speak to him or see him.

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    Belkar used to be a pretty valuable member of the team and yet, from the recent strips it's seems as if his allies don't want anything to do with him, as if they suddenly noticed he is Chaotic Evil. Am i the only one bothered by this? If Haley hates Belkar's evil acts why did she adventure with him in the first place? She even went as far as to say he is a liability despite Belkar having saved the Order at least twice.
    The thing is, Belkar is useful in a dungeon, because there are plenty of things he can kill with impunity. When you're trying to interact with things peacefully in town, though, or when you're trying to be stealthy (as Haley and Celia have been for the last while), he becomes much more of a liability.

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Belkar is awesome. Everyone who doesn't think so is entitled to their own opinion, however...

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Belkar: "I'll just harvest their kidneys and catch up"
    Roy: "Belkar!!"

    And how was Roy to know Kobold was LG? He never got to speak to him or see him.
    I was talking about this one.
    I'll give you the Kobold example as Roy wasn't there, but i highly doubt he would have punished Belkar either, the order didn't seem to mind his actions back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by nleseul View Post
    The thing is, Belkar is useful in a dungeon, because there are plenty of things he can kill with impunity. When you're trying to interact with things peacefully in town, though, or when you're trying to be stealthy (as Haley and Celia have been for the last while), he becomes much more of a liability.
    So they don't mind his actions when they are morally wrong as long as they help the party, is that right?

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    In D&D, killing is only wrong under certain circumstances, and being Down a Dungeon removes some (not all) of these.

    Remember when Belkar first killed an NPC in a town, Durkon's reaction to Roy getting him "out on bail" was "Have ye gone daft??"

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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    Belkar later expressed regret that he didn't sell out, this is a very poor example.

    But the point is, he didnt sell out...nor did he go back after realizing he could have sold out...it proves my point perfectly

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    In D&D, killing is only wrong under certain circumstances, and being Down a Dungeon removes some (not all) of these.
    Well, while the story is really focused on punishing Belkar and taking his crimes very seriously, it seems a bit inconsistent to have ignored every single crime he has committed, inside or outside a dungeon.

    Belkar was originaly used as a comic relief character whose evil actions were ignored for the sake of comedy, and for some reason comedy seems to have taken a back seat to high-ground morality situations, which in my opinion really hurts evil characters such as Xykon or Belkar.

    Gotta go folks, see you later.
    Last edited by Calmness; 2008-10-23 at 02:12 PM.

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Mark didn't exactly stop him, merely meant he had to be more indirect. Him and V both got yelled at about this by Roy.

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike62 View Post
    But the point is, he didnt sell out...nor did he go back after realizing he could have sold out...it proves my point perfectly
    Belkar knows he can't leave Roy's body behind. This is the stated reason why he hasn't abandoned Haley yet. Again, you aren't helping your case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    I was talking about this one.
    And once again you produce an example where Belkar is doing something wrong with Roy no where near him, yet Roy is somehow accountable for not magically knowing it was occuring?

    All Roy would see is Belkar chasing down goblins, which is entirely acceptable behavior. Belkar isn't under any requirement to allow the Goblins to regroup, and cutting down the enemy during a rout is expected.
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    In any case, it tends to kick in after they leave the dungeon. Though Belkar didn't catch much flak for chasing a lawyer around, and in the process accidentally setting off explosion.

    He did end up in chains a short time later for unrelated reasons.

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Belkar's a wonderful little bastard.
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    He is entertaining. And gets some of the best lines.

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    Belkar's a wonderful little bastard.
    I think you summed up both why people like him and why people hate him in the same sentence. At the beginning, nearly all (if not actually all) readers saw this entire sentence to be true - this was why Belkar was not disliked, despite his evil actions. Lately, however, many people are coming to the conclusion that the "wonderful" part is not the case, making him merely a "little bastard." Furthermore, he is only "little" because he is Small sized. In terms of affection or terms of grandness of scale, "little" doesn't seem to fit to many either. This makes Belkar simply a "bastard," which is certainly a reason to hate a character. Frankly, Belkar is every bit as evil as Xykon is, but Xykon is the Bad Guy, not working with the Order. If Belkar were to become another antagonist, I think a lot of the hate would go away, or at least lessen a lot.

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    yes, at the moment he is distinctly lacking in Magnificence.

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiery Diamond View Post
    Frankly, Belkar is every bit as evil as Xykon is, but Xykon is the Bad Guy, not working with the Order. If Belkar were to become another antagonist, I think a lot of the hate would go away, or at least lessen a lot.
    Exactly. I have nothing against a character like Belkar as an antagonist but I have everything against having a guy like Belkar with the freaking good guys.

    Seriously, the only reason the rest of the party havent killed him yet, as they really should since hes a lot more dangerous to anyone then most of the things they kill without impunity, is that this was originally nothing more then a parody of D&D and that Belkar was a parody of how people usually play the Chaotic Evil alignement. But since this comic now have a much more important plot, I just dont understand why they dont just kill him already.

    This go both way too, the only reason why Belkar hasnt killed them yet is because this was a parody of a D&D party...though with him its a lot more believable since he got a very low attention span so even if he might think about betraying them the next second he'll think : «Thow the cat in her face!»
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Bah. You guys probably didn't like Jayne Cobb, either.

    (The Chaotic-Evil murdering jerk Jayne Cobb is aligned similar to Belkar--to the point where Belkar could be his "mini-me"-- and is absolutely the best character on Firefly/Serenity.)
    Last edited by Talya; 2008-10-23 at 03:22 PM.
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    And once again you produce an example where Belkar is doing something wrong with Roy no where near him, yet Roy is somehow accountable for not magically knowing it was occuring?
    I actually agree with this. Roy has high Intelligence and Wisdom. If he wants to claim to be Belkar's "warden," then he is responsible for not letting Belkar out of his sight, ever. The consequences of treating Belkar like a companion rather than a prisoner are both demonstrated at that link (not to mention when Belkar joins the Barbarians' Guild) and well within Roy's supposed capabilities to guess.
    Last edited by Kish; 2008-10-23 at 03:24 PM.
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    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I actually agree with this. Roy has high Intelligence and Wisdom. If he wants to claim to be Belkar's "warden," then he is responsible for not letting Belkar out of his sight, ever. The consequences of treating Belkar like a companion rather than a prisoner are both demonstrated at that link (not to mention when Belkar joins the Barbarians' Guild) and well within Roy's supposed capabilities to guess.
    I unfortunately have to agree with that which is really annoying because Roy is my favorite character. Belkar not only shoudnt be with the good guys but also make the good guys look bad for not killing him or at least restraining him better. Which is why, once again, I want them to kill him or I want him to join the bad guys and I hope its the latter because he have some very good one-liners.
    Last edited by Querzis; 2008-10-23 at 03:29 PM.
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    (The Chaotic-Evil murdering jerk Jayne Cobb is aligned similar to Belkar--to the point where Belkar could be his "mini-me"-- and is absolutely the best character on Firefly/Serenity.)
    Better than Inara? No way.

    And speaking of Inara, I'll be in my bunk.

    (I played a fighter a couple of campaigns ago who unintentionally ended up being very similar in temperament to Jayne. That line got quoted a lot. Even though I'd decided that the character was actually asexual.)

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    A few things to keep in mind:

    Belkar has gotten worse without Roy keeping him in check. He now shows absolutely no qualms about killing innocents who have something he wants (such as the gnome with the chocolate bar), or who simply bother him (like the oracle). Belkar didn't do these things when Roy was there. He would suggest it, or want to do it, but was stopped. Haley can't control him like Roy can.

    One reason for this, is that Haley couldn't take Belkar in a 1 on 1 fight. Haley is awesome, but she's no where near the warrior that Belkar is. Even with Celia, I wouldn't expect them to survive against him. Roy, on the otherhand, could take Belkar on (or at least make the fight so even that Belkar wouldn't risk it). The only reason Belkar stayed around after Roy died was because of the Mark of Justice, and the reason he's still alive now that he's activated it is because Haley and Celia won't kill someone who is essentially helpless.

    Remember, a big part of the strips since the death of Roy, is showing that the party falls apart without a leader. Yes, it means people like Haley and Elan are growing, but neither is able to hold the party together, even though Haley is smart enough to be a leader, and Elan has the charisma to talk to people.

    The Order needs Roy to stay together. Belkar and V are proof of that.

    -edit- And on a side note, I'm glad that other people also think that Jayne was Chaotic Evil. I think that Wizards refered to him as being CN in their April-fools alignment thingy. I think he's actually an excellent example of how a CE character should be played in a party. Just because they're CE doesn't mean that they slaughter everyone in their sleep, and are complete psycopaths
    Last edited by Hzurr; 2008-10-23 at 03:42 PM.

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by nleseul View Post
    Better than Inara? No way.

    And speaking of Inara, I'll be in my bunk.
    I said best character, not hottest character. (And Inara has competition there from more than half the crew...Kaylee and Mal could both give her a run for her money...)
    Last edited by Talya; 2008-10-23 at 03:38 PM.
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike62 View Post
    But the point is, he didnt sell out...
    If he'd known what was at stake, he would have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike62 View Post
    ...nor did he go back after realizing he could have sold out...
    Judging by his expression in the fourth panel, he doesn't believe that Tsukiko is the forgiving type. The opportunity is forever lost, and he knows it.

    Look, I enjoy reading about Belkar, but the fact is that things were inevitably going to come to a head. Roy took him on with no knowledge of what he was really like, then did the best he could for damage control as it became apparent that he was dealing with a loose cannon.

    Note that Roy wanted the Mark of Justice placed on Belkar, as shown here. He still saw value in having Belkar's assistance, but obviously didn't trust him -- and with good reason.

    Roy is quite aware of Belkar's hand in the destruction of the inn that lead to the party's second clash with Miko (he might not have been aware of the reasons, but it was pretty clear that the halfling was up to no good, even though he'd never intended to blow up the inn), as well as the events that provoked their third clash with the paladin. How do you trust someone that murders a guard just so he'll be in the position to provoke a paladin's fall at the cost of his own life?

    As we've seen since, with the deaths of Yok-Yok, Grand Larceny Guy, and a gnome merchant (to say nothing of V's near-miss with the owlbear, or the time he went after Durkon at Nale's request -- note that Belkar was willing to accept the triggering of the mark while under the charm spell's effect), the restraining bolt has not proven to be as effective as Roy would have liked. It took the Oracle to manoeuvre Belkar into setting it off in a manner that wouldn't let him get away with it. It's not surprising that this set Haley off, because that was the second time the halfling had killed someone useful to her party for no good reason, and she was correct in determining that she had no way, short of killing him, to prevent him from doing so again.

    It's not like this is a recent problem between them. I doubt she's forgotten about this time either, when she had to save Belkar from himself (after he'd pushed his luck too far with Skullsy), only for him to turn around and throw O-Chul to the wolves eight strips later. (She's not happy that his assessment in the latter case was right either, or that she was forced to admit it.)

    Haley can't control Belkar, and she can't trust him. She's aware of the fact that one of his goals includes causing the death of Roy or V (for the same reasons that Roy knows Durkon will return home posthumously and Elan knows, according to a bonus strip, that V is searching for the right four words). How much support is he owed?

    I like the character, but I'm glad I don't have to work with him.

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