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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default If Celia falls pregnant

    This has got me wondering since Sara mentioned it. If Celia and Roy do have a child (after he has been raised of course), what will the child's race be? Is there a half-sylph template or something from a book I don't own. If so what is such a creature like?

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Well with basic genetics, you would only have a 50% chance for a half-sylph. the rest is 25% for human and 25% for full sylph.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    I would suspect the theoretical kid being an air genasi

    Also, genetics do not work like that. There is a 100% chance that a full human and a full sylph, if they can make babies, will create a half sylph half human. You are thinking of two 50% hybrids.
    Last edited by Smiley_; 2008-10-27 at 10:07 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Smiley_ View Post
    I would suspect the theoretical kid being an air genasi

    Also, genetics do not work like that. There is a 100% chance that a full human and a full sylph, if they can make babies, will create a half sylph half human. You are thinking of two 50% hybrids.
    As a geneticist myself I can confirm this.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Smiley_ View Post
    I would suspect the theoretical kid being an air genasi

    Also, genetics do not work like that. There is a 100% chance that a full human and a full sylph, if they can make babies, will create a half sylph half human. You are thinking of two 50% hybrids.
    That's only if syplhiness is tied to one gene, and even then only the dominant gene would take effect, leaving you either a sylph with recessive human genes or a human with recessive sylph genes.

    I think that's how it works, anyway.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    There's a 100% chance because any pairing in such a setting that results in offspring is going to give exactly half of each parent to the child.
    Last edited by Mauve Shirt; 2008-10-27 at 10:19 PM.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Yeah, just put it in a punnett square and all it comes out as is 100% half-human half-slyph, assuming one gene controls whether or human and one gene control slyphiness.
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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Not to mention that 1 gene is an exceptionally low number, considering that all they change is protein forming. As for the half human, half slyph, 25% thing, that would be if roy and celia had a kid, neither gene was dominant, somebody else did the same thing, and then those two kids bred. Punnet squares:

    --H---H
    s Hs Hs
    s Hs Hs

    Then for the two half slyph.
    --H----s
    H HH Hs
    s Hs ss

    This is of course highly simplified, but it helps to get the point across. If anybody wants to do the whole table thing with it, feel free.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    As Pirate Monk claims, if Sylphiness/humaness is a single gene trait with complete dominance, then the child will be 100% the dominant race. In all other situations (which are more likely as race probably involves several genes), then the child would be 50% human, 50% sylph. However my point was, is this called a 1/2 sylph, are there stats for such things, or would it be an air genasi or something I've never heard of?

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Assuming neither the Slyph or Human gene is dominate (which seems unlikely since in DnD, elves/humans always make half-elves, and orc/human always makes half-orc), then yes, it would be a half slyph, unless there is the unlikely chance that one of Celia's ancestor's was a human and by some string of luck she has managed to keep a recesssive human gene, or vice versa with Roy having a slyph ancestor. Doesn't seem very likely though.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMonk View Post
    That's only if syplhiness is tied to one gene, and even then only the dominant gene would take effect, leaving you either a sylph with recessive human genes or a human with recessive sylph genes.

    I think that's how it works, anyway.


    Yeah....because something as complex as Slyphiness would realistically be tied to only one gene...instead of, I don't know....every gene...since they all define the traits of the slyph.


    Even eye colour in humans is tied to multiple genes.


    Not to mention you're assuming Sylphs have an equal number of chromosomes to human and that said chromosomes in sylphs and humans code for similar traits.



    EDIT: Our of idle curiosity...which of our chromosomes codes for being human? If you can answer that and provide a reliable source, I'll give you an e-cookie.
    Last edited by Theodoriph; 2008-10-27 at 11:02 PM.

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Like I said, all 1 gene controls is a specific protein(ie hemoglobin might be a single gene). But its simplified to make it easier to understand.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    The child will be Miko reincarnated.

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by YeahThatGuy View Post
    The child will be Miko reincarnated.
    I don't think so because the potential child will not be lawful stupid. Naive, maybe, but not insane
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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoriph View Post
    EDIT: Our of idle curiosity...which of our chromosomes codes for being human? If you can answer that and provide a reliable source, I'll give you an e-cookie.
    Chromosome 6?

    Book of the same name, by Robin Cook?

    This is just a random guess.
    Last edited by Felixaar; 2008-10-27 at 11:06 PM.
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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Where exactly the line human is drawn is pretty ambiguous, as it comes down to whether the human can breed with another human(excepting sterility) and produce a fertile child, meaning that there is going to have to be a benchmark, and as there isn't we have no real measure. Because of that no individual chromosome does control it, although it is the sex chromosomes which have the biggest influence, as the difference between a XXY, XY, and XYY male are dramatic(although X versus XX in females isn't).
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    The only thing I can think of while reading this thread is tho hot slyph sex involved here.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by YeahThatGuy View Post
    The child will be Miko reincarnated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assassin 89 View Post
    I don't think so because the potential child will not be lawful stupid. Naive, maybe, but not insane
    That's why you have to
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    reincarnate Shojo's soul in the same body, too! They'll cancel each other out and the kid can start to grow it's own personality!

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    RogueGirl

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateJesus View Post
    Well with basic genetics, you would only have a 50% chance for a half-sylph. the rest is 25% for human and 25% for full sylph.



    Now, I don't mean to be snarky, but what on earth do you mean?

    It's just that I'm a geneticist, you see. So it bothers me. I assume this must be a misunderstanding of Mendel's second law, but a major one.

    With basic genetics, there would be a 100% chance of the offspring containing half human and half sylph genes, trust me.

    Maybe the issue is this: If Celia had grandchildren, and these grandchildren came from a mating between two of her own offspring (sorry, you can do it in animal breeding. Or plants.), then, given that for each individual gene her offspring have exactly one human- and one sylph-copy, the grandchildren would have 50% offspring with again one human- and one sylph-copy, while 25% grandchildren would have two human copies and the last 25% would have two sylph copies. But that goes for each _particular_ gene. Averaged over all of their DNA, the grandchildren arising from such a sibling crossing would STILL be exactly 50% human and 50% sylph. And also 50% inbred.

    Anyway, this is where the 1:2:1 ratio happens in genetics. I guess that must be where you got a bit mixed up.

    Celia and Roy's offspring would ALL be exactly 50% human and 50% sylph, since they originate from a fusion between two cells with exactly 50% of the genes you need to make a whole organism.

    Thanks, I just needed to get that out of my system.

    (EDIT: Heh, I can see other geneticists beat me to it. There's what comes from replying without reading the whole thread. I just got carried away, sorry...)
    Last edited by Caleniel; 2008-10-28 at 04:27 AM.

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    The 'human' DNA should be DNA that fits two criteria.

    1) It should not be present in any living nonhuman (excluding any possible half breeds)
    2) It should be (very nearly) the same in all living humans (excluding any possible half breeds)

    If you can find this DNA, you've got what makes us humans.

    As a matter of fact, I know of at least one gene that fits to these criteria. One of the genes responsible for our jaw muscles. While a similar gene exists in most primates (perhaps even most mammals), our version has mutated, shrinking our jaw muscles immensely. (Source is a National Geographic show about Will Wright's quest for discovering more about evolution)
    Last edited by InaVegt; 2008-10-28 at 04:49 AM.
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    I'm not as smart about genetics as Caleniel and PirateJesus are, but I always figured it was 50/50. Roy's and Celia's baby would be part-human and part-sylph. (Like Therkla was part-human, part-orc)

    Once that baby matured and decided to have a child of his/her own, that child would be 3/4 sylph and 3/4 human.

    Again, I may have gotten the calculations wrong....in fact, I think I did.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    There's a half-fey template in the 3.5 Fiend Folio. Although Sylph are not Fey (had to check, I sort of had the impression that they were), it's the closest thing, or sounds like it to me at least, to what template could be used for Roy's and Celia's hypothetical offspring.

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Atelm View Post
    There's a half-fey template in the 3.5 Fiend Folio. Although Sylph are not Fey (had to check, I sort of had the impression that they were), it's the closest thing, or sounds like it to me at least, to what template could be used for Roy's and Celia's hypothetical offspring.
    Or:

    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a

    Download the manual of planes and there is a template for half-elemental.

    Edit: And to answer Mastikator, yes they do. Everything in D&D can reproduce together .
    Last edited by Querzis; 2008-10-28 at 06:16 AM.
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    Imp

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Um, do elementals even have DNA? Celia is a para-elemental, and I always figured that elementals and outsiders are spiritual lifeforms, not material.
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleniel View Post
    (EDIT: Heh, I can see other geneticists beat me to it. There's what comes from replying without reading the whole thread. I just got carried away, sorry...)
    Correction: Other Geneticists and a high school student who paid attention in freshman year biology.

    Oh and belskter, you definitely got it wrong. Its either 100%/100% (as both genes have a 100% chance of showing up, assuming a single gene) then 75%/75% for both genes, or it goes from 50-50, to 75-25, to use your numbers. Or two opposite 75-25s produce a 50-50. This deals with more than one gene though, and using your phrasing its confusing. Basically it is impossible for something to be 75% slyph, 75% human, because that adds up to 150.
    Last edited by Knaight; 2008-10-28 at 07:02 AM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Firstly, I must congratulate Caleniel on an excelent explanation of Mendelian Genetics. It is both accurate and more easy to understand than what I would have probably said.

    To Belkster11, yes your calculations are wrong. You are getting confused because there are multiple posibilities. If the child mated with a human, the result would be 3/4 human, 1/4 sylph, if it mated with a sylph, the result would be 3/4 sylph, 1/4 human, if it mated with another 1/2 sylph 1/2 human, the result would still be 1/2 sylph, 1/2 human. Unless there was a single gene determining sylphiness/humanness.

    To Querzis, thank you, I didn't realise Manual of the planes had a 1/2 elemental template.

    To Mastikator, even spiritual beings mate in DnD. They can often mate with many species so maybe they magically make DNA conveniant for what they want to mate with.

    Edit: Yes, it is impossible to total to more than 100%
    Last edited by Sereg; 2008-10-28 at 07:06 AM.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    It could be a human with sylph bloodline, for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, check out unearthed Arcana, has a list of bloodlines, and gives rules for making one.
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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereg View Post
    This has got me wondering since Sara mentioned it. If Celia and Roy do have a child (after he has been raised of course), what will the child's race be? Is there a half-sylph template or something from a book I don't own. If so what is such a creature like?
    In AD&D, the offspring of a humanoid and a sylph is always a female sylph, and they lay eggs, like the medusa. What they are like in OOTSworld is anyone's guess, since Celia's treehugging ex-boyfriend is apparently the same race. (Maybe he's some kind of fey creature instead?).
    Last edited by jamroar; 2008-10-28 at 07:20 AM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Edhelras's Avatar

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    LOL, I'm a half-geneticist myself....

    This hole debate, I had it recently on another website discussing what would be the offspring of Half-elf and Elf.

    The whole debate seems to hinge on people believing "race" to be a single-gene trait (alternatively a single-chromosome feature, something which is quite strange as except from the sex chromosomes, no specific function can be assigned to the chromosome as such; function is related to genes, and each chromosome contains a wide variety of genes. Therefore, whole-chromosome disorders like trisomies produce offspring (if viable) with a large set of different malfunctions). Which is ridiculous, given the enormous amount of differences between sylphs and humans. The whole business of growing wings, for instance, would require a large amount of genes to make them grow and function.

    The other error made is of course that the whole concept of "race" is flawed. It's only usable in web-comics and DnD (which is, BTW, the topic of this debate.... ). IRL - and if you choose to talk about genetics, you're kind of introducing IRL whether you want to or not - you cannot really talk about race, at least not when you're looking at a particular individual and try to assign it to this or that race. There are so many shared properties between different "races", and so many individuals who from one point of view appears to belong to race A but from another point of view have much more in common with race B. You can only talk about race if you choose a certain set of criteria, arbitrarily chosen and overlooking other creteria, that possibly are more important to function and should be more prominent in classification.

    Even if you look at these specific criteria (like, to take the obvious, skin colour, curliness of hair, thickness of lips - yes, I'm your typical caucasian, and to people from my part of the world, the African blacks are the most obvious "other race" when the subject is brought up) you'll find it in many cases difficult to decide whether the individual is fitting into this or that category. How curly hair is curly? How dark a coloration of the skin? Obviously, there are some clearcut cases, but inevitably, you'll find borderline cases that make the whole "race" discussion useless.

    In DnD, it's much simpler. All elves have low-light vision, heck, even blind ones. All dwarves are stable, even one-legged ones. All humans are resourcefull, even stupid ones. And so on.

    Which is why I concur with the OP. Just focusing on simple DnD mechanics; what should we call the offspring of Roy and Celia? I would term it Half-sylph, because that's the way things are done in DnD: Every time you use Half - if not otherwise stated - it means half-human, half-other creature.
    Generally, if the template doesn't exist, you should take away some of the most spectacular features of the sylph - like the wings (replace with lesser flying-like abilities, perhaps even the ability to levitate), cut the benefits in half (magical abilities, for instance) and add some skill points. Reduce expected longevity to some years above normal human life expectancies.

    As for eye colour, well, just follow ordinary RL rules...

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    Default Re: If Celia falls pregnant

    I thought all sylphs were female. They need to mate with other races but the offspring is always 100% sylph (and female).

    For the geneticists out here, think of it as parthenogenesis with the male being there just to get the process going.

    Oops, ninja'd.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamroar View Post
    In AD&D, the offspring of a humanoid and a sylph is always a female sylph, and they lay eggs, like the medusa. What they are like in OOTSworld is anyone's guess, since Celia's treehugging ex-boyfriend is apparently the same race. (Maybe he's some kind of fey creature instead?).
    Yes, that was what I remembered, always female and egg-laying.
    Last edited by teratorn; 2008-10-28 at 07:48 AM.
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