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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Well, in the past, we've seen that Belkar won't pay attention to Haley as a group leader, so it's harder for her to keep him under control.

    But the bigger problem recently is that his Mark of Justice makes him too weak to attack anyone, so his one benefit has been taken away. And this is Haley, the group's cheapskate. She's not going to pay to get rid of a problem Belkar brought on himself.

    Of course, if
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    Belkar "convinces" the cleric that it's in his best interest to cure Belkar for free, then he might prove himself useful to Haley again.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    I said best character, not hottest character. (And Inara has competition there from more than half the crew...Kaylee and Mal could both give her a run for her money...)
    Well, I'm not really qualified to evaluate the comparative hotness of Mal or any of the male characters, so I'll defer to your judgment there. (Though that one scene where he got to be naked in front of the girls was pretty hot... but I digress.) But I'll agree that the other female crew members are pretty comparable strictly in terms of hotness. Inara is awesome for reasons beyond simple hotness, though; not least of which is just the fact that positive portrayals of sex workers in the media are a good thing.

    Just to say something vaguely on topic, I think that there's practically no chance that Belkar is going to die as a result of this scene, or that he's going to be replaced as a member of the Order. It might be convenient or rational for that to happen, but that's just not the way stories work. The job of the author is to take an improbable bunch of characters and show that they actually do end up complementing each other, however unlikely as it may seem. This is the story of the Order, and there is no reason to expect that they won't go through the entire story as a unified whole. Yes, Belkar probably will die per the Oracle's predictions, but only at a time when the plot requires it. And this is not that time. I don't expect Belkar or anyone to die (permanently) at any point before the climax of the story.

    It's just like Gollum. It may seem blatantly obvious at the moment that Haley should kill Belkar now and get him out of the way, but I guarantee you that when the whole story is told, it'll probably be apparent that it couldn't have worked without him as a part of it the whole way.
    Last edited by nleseul; 2008-10-23 at 04:17 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by nleseul View Post
    Well, I'm not really qualified to evaluate the comparative hotness of Mal or any of the male characters, so I'll defer to your judgment there. (Though that one scene where he got to be naked in front of the girls was pretty hot... but I digress.) But I'll agree that the other female crew members are pretty comparable strictly in terms of hotness. Inara is awesome for reasons beyond simple hotness, though; not least of which is just the fact that positive portrayals of sex workers in the media are a good thing.
    Okay, good point there.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Belkar has never been a desirable member of the team [from the party view. We find him very desirable.] A paraphrased Roy pretty much sums up the attitude "We owe him too much to abandon him, and we owe everybody else too much to let him loose."

    Since he is harmless at the moment and they have even less reason to deem themselves owing anything to him, now's a fine time to dump him.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Few words on the starting question

    Hm... the thing is, Belkar is a little onesided, which some people consider boring. And then there are those goodie-two-shoes who just don't like evil people. *shrug* Let's just say he's not someone everyone likes and some people wish he was dead.

    I myself am a great fan of death's lil helper. He might not be the best member of the Order, but without him they wouldn't have accomplished what they did. And no matter, what some people claim he IS important to the plot, he always was and probably will be until he dies (or even thereafter) It's not like he is always useful or does the right thing, that's out of question, but he's not that much of a hindrance as e.g. pre-swordsman Elan was.
    "What's done is done."

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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    To go back to the original question - why the sudden highmoralgroundedness towards Belkar? I think it might be a part of a set-up for some sort of redemption, hightened contrast and all that. The anti-hero achieving redemption and dying is one of the oldest tropes in the book. Besides he hasn't caused the death of Vaarsuvius yet...

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    (The Chaotic-Evil murdering jerk Jayne Cobb is aligned similar to Belkar--to the point where Belkar could be his "mini-me"-- and is absolutely the best character on Firefly/Serenity.)
    Jayne isn't killing just for the sake of rampage - and the only time he did something the others disapproved of, Mal tried to kill him. Also, I think Jayne is more NE.

    "Belkar hate" is just Belkar getting the consequences of his actions. I also think that, while some of his one-liners are funny, random violence is not - it gets oooooold quickly.

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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    Belkar used to be a pretty valuable member of the team and yet, from the recent strips it's seems as if his allies don't want anything to do with him, as if they suddenly noticed he is Chaotic Evil. Am i the only one bothered by this? If Haley hates Belkar's evil acts why did she adventure with him in the first place? She even went as far as to say he is a liability despite Belkar having saved the Order at least twice.
    I think the whole "it seems his allies want nothing to do with him" is a bit of exaggeration. I mean the party hasn't had to manage him for months, Haley has. And she wasn't in charge before. She was a member of a diverse team with her own goals and apsirations, just like V, Roy etc. Sure, they had a common direction, but still. And Belkar was largely under control - it's not like he was running wild and rubbing the teams nose in his chaotic evil. Her reaction to him killing the gnome was a lot more accepting then I suspect Roy's would have been. And her pre-mind wipe reaction to him killing the Oracle was perfectly fair and sensible.

    As to not removing the curse - well, she didn't know about the imminent attack, and this is Haley. It's in character. It doesn't seem any different to her finding Belkar in jail needing to be bailed because of some crime he committed - I mean, Haley wasting her gold on getting him out of trouble for something he brought on himself?

    And it's not like she's been treating him like Miko or even V would have. Because of his past actions, which led to him getting MoJ-ised he has been a bit of a weight on her and his usefulness limited - like having to physically lug Roy's corpse around so not to trigger the MoJ? Yet she didn't abandon him, as much as he appeared to annoy her. When he killed the gnome she didn't abandon him, and when he got sick and they couldn't remember why she still didn't dump him despite the dead wood effect. She was even going to pay for his cure until she learnt it was his own fault. I'm not really seeing any Belkar "hate" from Haley. Fed up perhaps, but hate? No.

    Sorry about the rant, it's just a bit sad to see what was a fun character being treated badly by his "allies".
    I still don't see the bad treatment. So she decided to let him remain under the effects of a Paladin endorsed punishment for something that was his own fault for a little longer. Roy wouldn't have a problem with that, Durkon probably wouldn't be bothered by it either. V on the other hand would enjoy seeing him like that.
    Last edited by Dr. Cthulwho; 2008-10-23 at 07:18 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Belkar reminds many people of that confident kid that bullied them in school. It's childhood trauma.

    I love Belkar though hahah.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Belkar's Evil. Right, but what about early Batman? He killed people as well and was not a bit disliked. Spawn as well. He is a minion of hell. a good one, but he still only has evil powers, works with the tools he has. A good soul in an evil body. Definition of "means justify the end". The thing is Belkar is Pure evil (song by Iced Earth by the way, really fits him )

    I honestly think that most of the fun is the Order to keep him at bay. As a fan of his I say that I don't like him to be so mistreated, but the delusional humor is nice.

    But often the tension is at least half the fun. Take it out and the story might become a little less fun, less entertaining. I know Rich is a genius and will find a way out that pleases Belkar lovers and Belkar haters(As he always does). I just wouldn't like if tha same thing that happened to Miko happened to him. I really miss the massacre, the gruesomeness and the vileness of this little bastard.

    By the way: The brazillian orkut community for OoTS has related "Belkar, THE halfling". And a friend of mine often spends his free time drawing Belkars
    Last edited by Ronan; 2008-10-23 at 07:08 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    He has had a hundred opportunities to turn on the Order and still chooses to stay loyal.
    Horrible example.

    That's only because of the benefits associated with being an Adventurer, not out of a sense of loyalty. The only reason he didn't accept Tsukiko's offer is because he wanted to fling Mr. Scruffy in somebody's face. When he remembered that he could get the MoJ removed, he wanted to go back. The only reason he couldn't accept it this time is because he flung Mr. Scruffy in Tsukiko's face.

    In the next couple of strips, we find out he has no problem with slavery and wants to continue the enslavement of the humans, flying in the face of everything Haley and her Chaotic Good alignment stand for. He ends up making Haley push the cart, calls her a fat ass, and tells her Elan left her because he doesn't like her.

    I'm not taking any moral high-ground...but if I were Haley, I would have abandoned him as soon as he outlived his usefulness. And then nicked his magic daggers...and his magic items. Those things are valuable. Heck, might as well take his pants, too.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Belkar is funny, because you don't have to personally work with him. If you had to, then you'd probably want to stop working with him at the earliest opprotunity.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Compare Haley's pre-mindwipe thoughts on Belkar's murder of the Oracle as opposed to the post-mindwipe thoughts on getting rid of his curse. Haley's anger was why she wanted Belkar out, and when she wasn't angry, she didn't abandon him, just made him suffer for a crime he committed; even though he doesn't remember it. Think: did it have to be murder? Somehow, Belkar could have left a mile's radius of the corpse by complete accident. There was no proof. Haley won't abandon Belkar because she feels some pity for him, somewhere. The only person Belkar has left is Mr. Scruffy, and not even Belkar deserves that.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    Jayne isn't killing just for the sake of rampage - and the only time he did something the others disapproved of, Mal tried to kill him. Also, I think Jayne is more NE.
    Maybe.

    "I'll kill a man in a fair fight. Or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight. Or if he bothers me. Or if there's a woman. Or if I'm gettin' paid. Mostly when I'm gettin' paid."


    Either way, they're both quite evil.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronan_666 View Post
    By the way: The brazillian orkut community for OoTS has related "Belkar, THE halfling". And a friend of mine often spends his free time drawing Belkars
    Hopefully that's not done in a manner that'd force the Giant to send in Jones and Rodriguez to enforce his intellectual property rights... :)
    Don't bother trying to appeal to my better nature; I don't have one.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    You guys remember how Jayne was hired by Mal right? Jayne had a gun to pointed at Mal, and Mal bought him on the spot, and got Jayne to turn on his previous employer. Later, he tries to do the exact same thing to the firefly crew by selling them out to the alliance when they go to rob a hospital. He acts just like Belkar would in these regards, very CE to me.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Well, yeah - Jayne managed to betray his crew once already, and there were only 18 episodes (so far :)). Belkar hasn't betrayed the OOTS in over 600 strips. Does it matter why he remains loyal - as long as he does? V, on the other hand, starts with the best intentions but loyalty now seems pretty low on his list of priorities.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf View Post
    Does it matter why he remains loyal - as long as he does?
    Yes, it does. If the only reason someone is not betraying you is fear of reprisal or convience, once those reasons are gone so is any "loyalty" they may have.

    V, on the other hand, starts with the best intentions but loyalty now seems pretty low on his list of priorities.
    Vaarsuvius on the other hand is intensely loyal to Haley, and to a lesser degree Roy. Not Durkon, not Elan.

    So remove the reason for Vaarsuvius' loyalty to the portion of the party Vaarsuvius travelled with (Haley and the promise of trying to find Haley) and you will lose any loyalty Vaarsuvius will show. Vaarsuvius is still loyal to whom Vaarsuvius was always loyal, Vaarsuvius' friend, Haley (and to a lesser degree Roy).

    Vaarsuvius still has the same intentions Vaarsuvius has had since the party split.
    Last edited by evileeyore; 2008-10-24 at 04:44 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    "I'll kill a man in a fair fight. Or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight. Or if he bothers me. Or if there's a woman. Or if I'm gettin' paid. Mostly when I'm gettin' paid."
    Jayne likes to talk big. Doesn't make him any less evil, but there are a lot of things more important than getting paid, bothered, or quality time with a lady to him. It may be that he wasn't aware of that fact at the start of the series, but it sinks in pretty hard over the course of the season.

    Jayne has one at least virtue Belkar doesn't: he can feel shame and learn from it. A man who is more afraid for his reputation (or how it affects others) than his life when he's about to lose the latter is redeemable.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf View Post
    Well, yeah - Jayne managed to betray his crew once already, and there were only 18 episodes (so far :)).


    Huh. I'm tryin' ta reckon where ya got 18....the most I can come up with are:

    14 TV episodes
    1 Movie
    2 Comic Series (although at 3 comics each, they are hardly a full episode length.)

    I suppose 17 is close. Maybe if you split the pilot into both parts...
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    (The Chaotic-Evil murdering jerk Jayne Cobb is aligned similar to Belkar--to the point where Belkar could be his "mini-me"-- and is absolutely the best character on Firefly/Serenity.)
    Really? Could you name one occasion on which Jayne Cobb has murdered someone for no other reason than avoiding having to walk some place? Heck, you can a plausible argument that late-series/Serenity Jayne was CN or TN. Belkar's not even playing in the same league.

    The fact Jayne sold out River and Simon kinda tends to ignore the fact that HE GOT STABBED BY RIVER WITH A BUTCHER'S KNIFE, and that both are wanted fugitives who could land both him and everyone aboard Serenity in deep trouble. Jayne's motives may have been selfish, but his analysis wasn't wrong. He didn't betray his crew, he betrayed the Tams. Whatever Mal may feel about it, there is a difference.

    Jayne has done a few things that would have to be considered more-or-less evil over the series, but he also risked his neck to save Mal from Niska, and performed at least one unequivocally good act in Serenity. He sends money home to his family and shows signs of latent guilt or sympathy on occasion. He is NOT a bloodthirsty psychopath who lives only to inflict pain on others, and comparisons to Belkar are both inapt and uncalled-for.

    Yes, the Belkster has quasi-inadvertantly saved the Order's bacon on one or two occasions, because his bloodlust fixation de jure miraculously happened to coincide with the Order's best interests at that particular time. There are also a heap of examples of him sabotaging the Order's plans and endangering all their lives through short-sighted, self-indulgent killing-sprees in defiance of direct orders. And yes, his severe impulse-control problems have miraculously prevented him from switching sides so far, but relying on this indefinitely out of a misplaced sense of loyalty which he has done nothing sincere to deserve is what I would call Lawful Stupid behaviour.

    Yes, Belkar can be funny as hell, but that's not going to make me like him any better as a person.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Belkar hasn't betrayed the party for 600 strips. I don't know about you people but that has got to count for something. "But Belkar was going to join Tsukiko!" you might say, well guess what, he didn't accept her offer. "Belkar wants to leave the order!!" He hasn't, and has given no signs of even planning to do so. You might try spinning the events as much as you want but the fact remains that every single time he has had a chance to turn on the order he refused to do so. Every single time. What does that say to you about his loyalty?

    No really, how many times must Belkar prove himself?

    He is one of the most useful members of the order by the way, Haley ditching him will only lead to more trouble later in the story. Heck many people have been saying Haley should have had the cleric remove his curse and now she has to fight horribly outnumbered because she refused to do so. Some meatshield there would be helpful, wouldn't it?

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    Belkar hasn't betrayed the party for 600 strips. I don't know about you people but that has got to count for something. "But Belkar was going to join Tsukiko!" you might say, well guess what, he didn't accept her offer. "Belkar wants to leave the order!!" He hasn't, and has given no signs of even planning to do so. You might try spinning the events as much as you want but the fact remains that every single time he has had a chance to turn on the order he refused to do so. Every single time. What does that say to you about his loyalty?

    No really, how many times must Belkar prove himself?

    He is one of the most useful members of the order by the way, Haley ditching him will only lead to more trouble later in the story. Heck many people have been saying Haley should have had the cleric remove his curse and now she has to fight horribly outnumbered because she refused to do so. Some meatshield there would be helpful, wouldn't it?
    Oh boy, I really hope you're being sarcastic but, from my previous argument with Belkar fans and the infamous «Belkar is chaotic good» threads, I assume you're just being delusionnal.

    Ok, so you think hes loyal to the order and also the most usefull member of the party. Let me remind you a few parts from the comic:

    Belkar loyalty:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html Hes ready to kill his teammates for XP
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html And the only reason he doesnt is because they can kick his ass and later the only reason he doesnt is because of the Mark of justice...but for some weird reason you seem to think he wont betray them if the cleric get rid of the mark of justice? What comic have you been reading?
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html He doesnt want to help Roy, he just wanna kill giants.
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html Trying to kill a teammates...again
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html Belkar doesnt object killing ALL of his teammates as long as he get to keep the magic items.
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html Would have betrayed them if not for Mr.Scruffy
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html Would have betrayed them regardless of Mr.Scruffy if he had realized Xykon can get rid of the Mark

    Regardless of how much you like Belkar, I just dont get how anyone could think that he woudnt betray them if he manage to get rid of the Mark of Justice...

    Belkar usefullness:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html Yeah Belkar is a really good tracker.
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html What kind of brain-dead moron could do that? Well you Belkar.
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html Trying to kill his teammates apply to both loyalty and usefullness really
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html Get the entire party captured by setting a tent on fire and they would all have been killed without Roy and Durkon.
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0241.html Get the inn on fire even if some of his teammates are in it
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html trying to kill a teammates...again.
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html He got an abysmall will save if Nale could charm him
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html Killed the Oracle before he could answer their questions.

    Now his usefullness is less in question then his loyalty since he is, after all, a really good fighter. But he still get everyone else almost dead way too often, especially since sometimes its him who try to kill them directly. Beside, he has absolutely no use outside of combat.


    Now I would talk and show comic about his evilness but I hope at least you arent delusional to the point of thinking hes a good guy...right?

    Now I got nothing against people who like Belkar despite all that. But delusionnal people who twist everything we saw in the comic just to favor their favorite character (regardless of if its Belkar or anyone else...but most of the time its Belkar) just really annoy me.
    Last edited by Querzis; 2008-10-24 at 12:54 PM.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    if we go back to Origin- we see him decide what he will do, if he ever decides to attack party (delay to end of initiative order)

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by nleseul View Post
    Better than Inara? No way.

    And speaking of Inara, I'll be in my bunk.

    (I played a fighter a couple of campaigns ago who unintentionally ended up being very similar in temperament to Jayne. That line got quoted a lot. Even though I'd decided that the character was actually asexual.)
    what is this reference too?
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    biggrin Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Belkar loyalty:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html Hes ready to kill his teammates for XP
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html And the only reason he doesnt is because they can kick his ass and later the only reason he doesnt is because of the Mark of justice...but for some weird reason you seem to think he wont betray them if the cleric get rid of the mark of justice? What comic have you been reading?
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html He doesnt want to help Roy, he just wanna kill giants.
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html Trying to kill a teammates...again
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html Belkar doesnt object killing ALL of his teammates as long as he get to keep the magic items.
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html Would have betrayed them if not for Mr.Scruffy
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html Would have betrayed them regardless of Mr.Scruffy if he had realized Xykon can get rid of the Mark
    He's ready to kill them - but doesn't.
    He doesn't want to help Roy - but does.
    Trying to kill a teammate - but doesn't.
    He doesn't object to killing them - while under the influence of a charm spell. Doesn't kill them anyway.
    Would have betrayed them - but didn't.
    Ditto.

    Sorry, the point was? Belkar keeps saying that he wants to kill them, betray them, etc, he just never gets round to it?

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    Belkar hasn't betrayed the party for 600 strips.
    Trying to kill a party member for the XP is a betrayal. Having it pointed out that the party can then turn around and do the same thing to him doesn't change that fact.

    Revealing the party's location to an enemy because he wants to set something on fire over the objections of other party members is a betrayal.

    Having the openly stated goal of killing two members of his own party members is a betrayal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    I don't know about you people but that has got to count for something. "But Belkar was going to join Tsukiko!" you might say, well guess what, he didn't accept her offer.
    For the clearly stated reason that he hadn't thought it through, and nothing more than that. He tried to change his mind once he knew what it could get him, only to learn that wasn't an option any longer.

    In other words, he'd have accepted the offer if he'd understood it. He'd also have accepted it if he hadn't had access to a cat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    "Belkar wants to leave the order!!" He hasn't, and has given no signs of even planning to do so.
    Well, ignoring the fact that he can't, there's also the fact that he hasn't murdered either V or Roy yet. That's hardly an inspirational reason for having someone stay with the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    You might try spinning the events as much as you want...
    By stating the facts you've omitted from the examples cited above? No, the only one guilty of spin here is you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    What does that say to you about his loyalty?
    Nothing at all. Once you take away all the spin, you're left with a guy who hopes to kill at least two party members, and who has tried to kill two others. When he helps out, it's only because it coincides with his interests in killing or antagonizing other people (who he isn't always shown to think of as anything more than chunks of xp or sources of profit) or his own personal entertainment.

    At best, he's in it for personal aggrandizement: this being little more than a chance to make up for the opportunity missed here -- with a bigger body count.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    He is one of the most useful members of the order by the way...
    After Roy and Haley, of course, the two most likely to get things done. And V and Durkon, since the spellpower has proven very useful. And let's not forget Elan's contributions, though he tends to work best with careful guidance from one of the aforementioned characters.

    But after all of them, Belkar is most certainly the most useful party member. Why, if it wasn't for his tracking skills and spellcasting abilities... uh... Oh, hey, how about the way he protected the spellcasters during the first assault on Xykon? Uh... how about the way he kicked Miko in the head after Roy brought her down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    Haley ditching him will only lead to more trouble later in the story.
    Only in the sense that keeping Belkar alive will lead to more trouble later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
    Heck many people have been saying Haley should have had the cleric remove his curse and now she has to fight horribly outnumbered because she refused to do so. Some meatshield there would be helpful, wouldn't it?
    Maybe, but is it worth opening the homicidal genie's bottle? Haley's history with Belkar tells her it's not.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    That's funny. He didn't kill anyone in any of Querzi's examples, most of it was Belkar just talking about it but never actually doing it, which was the point of my post. Had he stabbed Elan i would agree with you. The only ones he came close to it was when he was being mind controlled and when he threw V against an owlbear, and that was because V played some pretty nasty (and dangerous) tricks on him befgore (fire toilet? ouch!). They both seem to like playing rough.

    Delusional? where did i say Belkar is a good guy? I said he was useful and mistreated by some of the comic characters. You think Belkar isn't useful, did you read the first two examples i posted at the beginning of the comic? I got them just by glancing at the archives, and i'm sure he has done much more than that. He made some wrong calls and has a pretty low WIS score but everybody makes mistakes, even Roy. Hell, i'm pretty sure Elan has screwed up worse than him and he is one of the more popular characters.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    yes, V could be argued as having began it all with Crushing despair. Maybe delayed revenge for being abandoned in the middle of pack of ghasts?

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf View Post
    He's ready to kill them - but doesn't.
    Only because he was certain to come out behind on that deal, getting killed in turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf View Post
    He doesn't want to help Roy - but does.
    No, he doesn't. By the end of the arc, he hasn't actually done a thing to help Roy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf View Post
    Trying to kill a teammate - but doesn't.
    Failing in his objective doesn't change the fact that it was his objective. V only survived because someone else managed to rescue him -- not because Belkar was pulling his pushes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf View Post
    He doesn't object to killing them - while under the influence of a charm spell.
    You have misstated the case here: the charm spell only allows Nale to direct Belkar to kill his teammates because Belkar has no objections to doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf View Post
    Doesn't kill them anyway.
    Because they prevented him from doing so. Again, failure doesn't make the attempt irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf View Post
    Would have betrayed them - but didn't.
    Failing to think the consequences of his decisions -- and obviously regretting the missed opportunity -- doesn't change the fact that he'd have done it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf View Post
    Sorry, the point was?
    The point is that the party's lucky Belkar is incompetent. Otherwise, he'd have done a lot more damage to them than he already has. As it is, Shojo's odds of still being alive and Xykon's odds of being destroyed once and for all would have been significantly higher if the halfling had been cut loose after the party left the Dungeon of Durokan.

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