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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    So, our last session ended in an arguement whether are Wizards better than Cleric, with me of course, reprsenting the Wizard. Today, the friend that represented the Cleric called me and told me he wanted a duel. 20th lvl 1v1. But, since I'm not that familiar with high lvl spellcasting (My wizard is 10th lvl, so my knowledge isn't that good on spells past 6th lvl), I really need help on this one, since I want to pummel him good.

    My plan was Celerity + Time Stop + some disabling/annihilating spells and that's where you come along. Basically, anything that's in the books goes. So feel free to make suggestions on metamagicked enervations etc.

    Also, can I somehow counter his dispels? With ring of counterspelling perhaps?
    Common sense is not so common.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    For humiliation purposes, have your wizard be a little elf girl.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Celerity can be abused so easily, it isn't funny. Start with a Limited Wish for Favor of the Martyr, follow up with the 4th level Celerity to get another spell off (if you can be a Sorcerer or Ultimate Magus, Arcane Fusion for Celerity and a 1st level spell is a good way to open). Repeat each round, replacing the Wish with something more useful (like Grease or Dispel Magic). Use the first spell of a round to bait his counterspell.

    If you want to prevent him from casting spells, nothing says "No!" like a readied Disentegrate to the face. Hitting him while he is casting forces a concentration check, and is vastly superior to normal dispelling or counterspelling. Granted, you need to keep a Celerity prepared in case he changes tactics on you mid-round and just charges your ass. Make sure that only you and the DM know the trigger for your Readied action.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Quote Originally Posted by Stupendous_Man View Post
    For humiliation purposes, have your wizard be a little elf girl.
    Tallfellow halfling!

    How you deal with him will depend on how the duel plays out: Initiative and suprise, or following the traditional lethal spellduel rules in Complete Arcane? Either way, CoDzilla takes some nasty heat from dispel effects and multiple exhaustion spells (two guarantees success, no save needed)

    Also, Energy Drain is gold against any caster. Make sure to dispel death ward first, though.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    High level spellduel, cleric vs. wizard... you might want to consider initiate of the sevenfold veil. Complete Arcane.

    Cast all those spells through wards, kaleidoscopic doom might be nice, though it depends on dispel. Still. Great way to protect and make the cleric waste spells. Wards are countered w/ certain spells, so put up wards in which spells that counter it are not cleric spells (I'm not that familiar, so I don't know if that's all wards, or just some).
    Last edited by kladams707; 2008-10-23 at 05:59 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Remember to Contingency some Celerity as soon as combat starts, As far as I know, that lets you act in a surprise round, so even if he wins initiative, you still crush him like a bug beacuse of the Maximized (with a rod) Time Stop you use before combat even starts and the Maximized Delayed Blast Fireballs you can rain down on him from that Time Stop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    If you have access to arcane reach ,or even know how to make good use of a familiar, prepare a Maximised shivering touch or two, nothing says humiliation like 18 dex down the drain with no save.

    or heck, timestop, move action, poke (-18dex), poke (-18 dex)
    if he's got more than 36 dex as a cleric I'd start calling shenanigans..or poke im again
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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeggedoff View Post
    If you have access to arcane reach ,or even know how to make good use of a familiar, prepare a Maximised shivering touch or two, nothing says humiliation like 18 dex down the drain with no save.

    or heck, timestop, move action, poke (-18dex), poke (-18 dex)
    if he's got more than 36 dex as a cleric I'd start calling shenanigans..or poke im again
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.
    That's why Delayed Blast Fireballs work better, they're Delayed until Time Stop ends. Forcecage + Silence, Solid Fog, Tentacles or another persistent effect. Alternately, some Gate action for a few allies who proceed to crush him like a grape.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Aren't creatures invulnerable to all your attacks when your under the effect of Time stop?

    That's why I like the delayed fireball idea b/c no one's being targeted and as someone posted, you can wait until after time stop to detonate them.
    Last edited by kladams707; 2008-10-23 at 06:25 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    No prestige classes, only Wizard. No rules concerning duel, so I'm assuming some arena or undefined space.

    How about this... When I cast (mazimized) Time Stop - in the first round I'm dazed, since I cast Celerity. On the second round I cast Imbue Familiar with Spell ability. Third round I summon 1d3 of Fiendish Tyrannosauruses. Familiar casts say... Wall of stone around him. Fourth round I cast (maximized) Maw of Chaos, Familiar casts Fly. Fifth round I cast quickened true strike, move up, ready action to cast Mazimized Energy Drain when Time Stop ends, familiar does the same but with Enervation.

    Time stop ends - he takes 120 dmg from maw of chaos, has to make a will save or be dazed, gets 8 negative lvls from me and possibly 1d4 from familiar and 1-3 Fiendish Tyrannosaurs charge him. How does that sound?
    Common sense is not so common.

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    You make sense in an annoying way.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    One tactic to use, and to be aware of, is summoning in some fiendish wolves or, better yet, fiendish dire wolves. Don't have them immediately attack, just have them surround your opponent with readied actions to attempt an attack if they start casting. Since they are wolves, they also get a trip attempt if they succeed in their attack. Your opponent can't do much casting if they are flat on their back most of the time - not to mention the attacks of opportunities caused by casting.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbash View Post
    How about this... When I cast (mazimized) Time Stop - in the first round I'm dazed, since I cast Celerity.
    You can do that? Maximized makes a spell take up a slot that is 3 levels higher. Since time stop is already level 9, how can you maximise it?

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Quote Originally Posted by kladams707 View Post
    Aren't creatures invulnerable to all your attacks when your under the effect of Time stop?

    That's why I like the delayed fireball idea b/c no one's being targeted and as someone posted, you can wait until after time stop to detonate them.
    Yeah, but what they do is create a spell like cloudkill then dump the target and the cloud into a forcecage. Once Time stop runs out, the target is stuck in a forcecage along with the cloudkill.

    It violates the spirit of the Time stop spell which is described in the fluff as for either bluffing or running but is technically legal because of:

    "A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. "

    Both cloudkill and forcecage are allowed under that description

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Quote Originally Posted by holywhippet View Post
    You can do that? Maximized makes a spell take up a slot that is 3 levels higher. Since time stop is already level 9, how can you maximise it?
    Rod of Maximize Spell, Greater.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Actually, I was making my post in reference to "or heck, timestop, move action, poke (-18dex), poke (-18 dex)
    if he's got more than 36 dex as a cleric I'd start calling shenanigans..or poke im again"

    Sorry for the misunderstanding.
    Last edited by kladams707; 2008-10-23 at 06:46 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Your opponent can't do much casting if they are flat on their back most of the time - not to mention the attacks of opportunities caused by casting.
    Well, nothing's actually stopping him from casting defansivly while he's prone. I'd rather it be in the mouth of a Tyrannosaurus. If I get lucky, there might even be 2-3 of them. So he actually can't do anything. Unfortunately, they will too take damage from Maw of Chaos when they close in on him, but they have enough HP to last one more round which will make him dead (240 dmg from Maw, 45 from Energy Drain, 5-20 from Enervation). I could also prepare to cast Otto's Irresitible Dance instead of Energy Drain to give myself more rounds to harras him. Orbs come into play then.
    Common sense is not so common.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm da Rogue!
    You make sense in an annoying way.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbash View Post
    ...On the second round I cast Imbue Familiar with Spell ability.
    Imbue Familiar lasts an hour per lvl, so you could probably start the fight off with it cast. That way your familiar gets to hit him before you time stop. Hell, take Improved Familiar to give it hands and have it use a metamagic rod, too.
    Last edited by BossMuro; 2008-10-23 at 06:59 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbash View Post
    No prestige classes, only Wizard. No rules concerning duel, so I'm assuming some arena or undefined space.

    How about this... When I cast (mazimized) Time Stop - in the first round I'm dazed, since I cast Celerity. On the second round I cast Imbue Familiar with Spell ability. Third round I summon 1d3 of Fiendish Tyrannosauruses. Familiar casts say... Wall of stone around him. Fourth round I cast (maximized) Maw of Chaos, Familiar casts Fly. Fifth round I cast quickened true strike, move up, ready action to cast Mazimized Energy Drain when Time Stop ends, familiar does the same but with Enervation.

    Time stop ends - he takes 120 dmg from maw of chaos, has to make a will save or be dazed, gets 8 negative lvls from me and possibly 1d4 from familiar and 1-3 Fiendish Tyrannosaurs charge him. How does that sound?
    Energy Drain & Enervation probably won't hit him, if he was smart enough to put death ward up.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    From the Devil's Advocate PoV, if I was that cleric, I'd definitately be prebuffed. Pop a Bead of Karma, wear a Ring of Enduring Arcana, use an Orange IWIN Stone, and use Divine Spell Power to jack your CL up about 13. That lands you an effective CL of 33, which equals a DC 44 CL check on the dispel. Assuming you use a Greater Dispel AND roll a 20, you'll only hit DC 35, 37 if you use both an Orange IWIN Stone and a Ring of Arcane Might, and 38 if you can nab a level of Archmage on top of that, which it sounds like you can't. Therefore, his buffs are off limits. Also, depending on his domains, he can ALSO use Time Stop - Celerity cheese. He'll definitely have both FoM and Death Ward running, so you can forget about the standard debuff and BC. He'll also probably have a CL29 Spell Resistance up, giving him what, SR 39? Thats only reliably beatable if you burn a precious swift action on Assay SR.

    And if I was him, I'd go for the Celerity + Time Stop combo, pop another Bead of Karma, and drop a CL ~29 Holy Word (or Blasphemy, or Word of Chaos, or Dictum), which will leave you paralyzed for 1d10 minutes. If he wanted to get really mean, he could roll Gnome, take Earth Spell and Heighten Spell, and cast Holy Word as a 9th level spell, increasing the CL by 3 more, for a CL 32 Holy Word, which WILL autokill you.

    To counter your start, he could be packing a pair of Greater Rings of Counterspelling loaded with Greater Dispel Magic as well as a Battle Magic Perception running. He might have the Inquisition domain, which gives him a +4 on dispel checks, meaning he can counter any of your spells (DC31-33) on a roll of 10 or so. Your odds of getting your Time Stop off then involves 3 consective ~50% rolls, which if he makes one, he wins. Oh, and a simple Anklets of Translocation or Boots of Big Stepping keeps him out of your Force Cage if you do even get it off.

    Granted, he might not do all of this, but if I was building the cleric to kill your wizard, I think you'd be uncomfortably surprised by some of the things a cleric can come up with.
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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    I just thought of the most important way to combat a Cleric you know nothing about: Neutral alignment.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganurath View Post
    I just thought of the most important way to combat a Cleric you know nothing about: Neutral alignment.
    Holy Word hits everything non-good. Therefore, it blasts neutral and evil indiscrimantly. Being True Neutral gets you screwed by ALL 4 of those spells.
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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    First of all, we won't have time to prebuff, since then it's just silly, so no Death Ward. Second of all, he's not an optimizer so his idea of beating wizard is that he just have to many healings for me to kill him.
    Common sense is not so common.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Will you have hour/day buffs on though? If so, Persistent Metamagic Incantatrix is the way to go (well, it's ALWAYS the way to go). Persistent Foresight FTW. Other than that, spells you'd probably want on if possible (burn multiple level X slots to Extend it sufficient times to make a 10 min/level spell last whole day):
    Contingency (on a command word - speakable as a free action): Dimension Door
    Battlemagic Perception [Heroes of Battle]
    Anticipate Teleport [Spell Compendium]
    Moment of Prescience (burn on Initiative-check)
    Nerveskitter [Spell Compendium - cast while rolling Initiative as per spell description]
    Overland Flight or Phantom Steed
    Superior Resistance [Spell Compendium]
    Greater Mage Armor & the usual basic AC buffs (although they'll be unnecessary)
    False Life (c'mon, pay him a little homage and keep some low-level buffs around too)

    With Greater Mirror Image at a ready. Of course, you don't probably need to use most of the spells. Nerveskitter & Moment of Prescience more or less guarantee won Initiative. Then just do something simple like AMF+Wall of Force+Cloudkill him or something. Archmage with Mastery of Shaping seems like the easiest way to go - keeping a constant Shaped AMF around you is all kinds of fun.

    Something like tossing him into a Solid Fog with AMF on you (covering the general area of the solid fog) and killing him slowly, but steadily with something like Cloudkills could be quite amusing. AMF removes his protections, Solid Fog stops him from escaping and Cloudkill slowly drains his Con to 0. Just repeat as necessary. For extra points, make 4 Wall of Forces around the Solid Fog so once he gets to the edge, he'll run into an invisible barrier. You're floating overhead of course, emanating your AMF not subject to the Cloudkill and completely out of his reach. You could use Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize on Time Stop to make that happen immediately. Heck, you could even lose the Initiative and Celerity>do that in case he doesn't know how to acquire Celerity as a Cleric.

    Make no mistake, a Cleric vs. Wizard no holds barred-fight on level 20 would be a fight of epic proportions, but if the Cleric-player doesn't even know the basics of tricking out a Cleric, he'll be toast before he can speak.


    EDIT: Anything goes?! Craft Contingent Spell [Complete Arcane]. Game over. Also, toss Incantatrix at him. Enervate his immortal soul to oblivion.
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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    no pre-buffs
    no prestige classes
    seriously read this post.

    if the cleric is not built to kill a wizard and the wizard is built to do in the cleric then why worry?
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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbash View Post
    First of all, we won't have time to prebuff, since then it's just silly, so no Death Ward. Second of all, he's not an optimizer so his idea of beating wizard is that he just have to many healings for me to kill him.
    Have you thought of Ray of Stupidity (2nd level spell)? Clerics aren't likely to have more than 12 int at most.
    1d4+1 Int damage.

    If use imbue on Familar then it casts with Touch of Idiocy:

    Order is Touch of Idiocy (lower Int to 1): then drop it to 0 with the Ray.

    Best thing all these spells are in your spells known possible for level 10 as well.
    You beat him with low level spells.

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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Your plan sounds good so far, Gorbash. Going back to disabling him, Shivering Ray would be good due to how he probably won't have high Dex. When will the duel happen?
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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    d'oh, it really shows that I've never played a high enough level caster to CAST time stop yet, sorry :/

    fokay, how about time stop, imbue ferret familiar with multiple maximised shivering touches, send ferret into clerics trousers, continue time stopped shenanigans, time stop ends, hilarity ensues
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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Have you thought of Ray of Stupidity (2nd level spell)? Clerics aren't likely to have more than 12 int at most.
    1d4+1 Int damage.

    If use imbue on Familar then it casts with Touch of Idiocy:

    Order is Touch of Idiocy (lower Int to 1): then drop it to 0 with the Ray.

    Best thing all these spells are in your spells known possible for level 10 as well.
    You beat him with low level spells.
    Touch of Idiocy only does 1d6 Int, Wis, and Cha damage; it doesn't automatically lower the score to 1.

    I wouldn't worry about this fight at all. Your strategy looks good, especially since he is planning to be a healbot and... heal himself?
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    Default Re: [3.5] A Lesson of Humility

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Rogue_Monk View Post
    Touch of Idiocy only does 1d6 Int, Wis, and Cha damage; it doesn't automatically lower the score to 1.

    I wouldn't worry about this fight at all. Your strategy looks good, especially since he is planning to be a healbot and... heal himself?
    Oh right. Darn that would have been a good combo.

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