Does this seem fair?

[Demons_eye]

Well I was going to a game one day and asked my dm if he allows DMM. He said no and no natural spell. I said ok but why? He said he didnt want a codzila in the game, which made me think fine but why not ban at lest some of the wizards spells. He said that he didnt think they were as bad as the cleric/druid.

Now I ask you is that fair? Can a cleric useing DMM be worse then a batman wizard?

[snoopy13a]

It doesn't really matter if it is fair or not. Chances are you won't be able to convince your DM so your choice is either to play in his game with his rules or to find another game.

[Break]

I won't comment on whether or not it's fair, but I will say that, generally speaking, a batman wizard will beat a DMM cleric or a druid. It is very possible for either to beat a wizard, but I assumed that you meant in general.

The more splatbooks are allowed, the more things shift in favor of the wizard, really.

[WirePaladin]

Personal preference really and might be impacted by the type of world / campaign...if there are checks and balances worked in to balance the wizard but nothing in play to stop the clr/dru from going g-dmode activate!...than yeah sounds fair

In general though...never found that it was DMM making a cleric or a druid go godmode

just tell him eff it...and roll up a spellscale dreadnecromancer...pointbuy add libris mortum and by lvl 7 your controlling what 200 hd worth of undead?

wont he wish his npc clerics had DMM than? O_O

[Keld Denar]

Well I was going to a game one day and asked my dm if he allows DMM. He said no and no natural spell. I said ok but why? He said he didnt want a codzila in the game, which made me think fine but why not ban at lest some of the wizards spells. He said that he didnt think they were as bad as the cleric/druid.

Now I ask you is that fair? Can a cleric useing DMM be worse then a batman wizard?

No. Most clerics who use DMM tend to be melee or archers. No mater how good you are, its still only damage. Nothing frustrates a DM more than thinking out a challenging and engaging encounter only to have the wizard gum it all up with Web, or Glitterdust, or any of those other low level win spells, and your poor monsters just sit there unable to function of fight back effectively while your party swams and finishes. A good disable wizard is a pretty scary thing to see, and annoying for a DM to track all of the layered debuffs a smart Batman can lay on in just a couple rounds.

[Demons_eye]

I ment a batman wizard. When he play a PC he plays a batman, all splat books are allowed in are group.

[Kurald Galain]

why not ban at lest some of the wizards spells. He said that he didnt think they were as bad as the cleric/druid.

Depends on what spells you're thinking about. If it's things like Moment of Prescience or Time Stop, chances are the campaign will never hit that character level anyway.

It also depends on whether by "Batman wizard" you mean "wizard who makes the rest of his team fight better" (as was its original definition) or "wizard who singlehandedly handles every encounter" (as people seem to think it means).

[Demons_eye]

The second. I dmed once when he played a wizard and he took the creture down by himself and it was a golem too....

[Hal]

DMM Persist is the one most people tend to dislike. If you have other plans, you should see if he'll allow any other DMMs. DMM Maximize is good for a healbot, or DMM Chain Spell for a buffer.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The thing is that with a bit of work any class with SoL or SoD spells can crush encounters, not just Wizards. I had a Beguiler take down a Rogue/Fighter 5 levels higher with Dominate Person. In the first session. It turned a challenge into a cakewalk. There really isn't a way to keep even moderately optimized arcanists from walking all over the enemy by banning spells.

For reference, my beguiler has save DCs of 25 on his 5th level spells at level 10. A char with Wis 10, a +3 item, and bad progression has +6 to the save. Needs a 19. A Cleric with Wis 24 has +14, needing an 11. I'm expecting a lot of enemies to start packing Iron Will, though.

[shadow_archmagi]

Well, the thing is, no one other than me in the party LIKES playing arcanists. And I don't have to worry about me when I dm, because I'm on my side.

Mike is in no way ever going to go into casterism.

So that means that demon eye is the only one I have to fear as far as overpowered magic goes. And, you know, wizard spells have a definate potential for creativity and amusement, unlike "I play the DMM card, raising my attack by 400 points!" If there WAS batmanish abuse, then, you know, I'd whittle the spell list a bit.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, the thing is, no one other than me in the party LIKES playing arcanists. And I don't have to worry about me when I dm, because I'm on my side.

Mike is in no way ever going to go into casterism.

So that means that demon eye is the only one I have to fear as far as overpowered magic goes. And, you know, wizard spells have a definate potential for creativity and amusement, unlike "I play the DMM card, raising my attack by 400 points!" If there WAS batmanish abuse, then, you know, I'd whittle the spell list a bit.

The problem is that I was playing essentially a skill-monkey with casting who simply took the feets to boost DCs and had maxed his prime stat. And then I had a slave who was better in combat than the tanks. No munchkinry, simply smart building.

[Will_Shakespear]

Hi there,

we only allow PHB spells in our group. Of course, there are a lot of core spells that have encounter-ending / BBEG-instant-killing potential. But my experience is, that such a limitation kills some of the, let me call them, cheesy spells out there. You only need one book to rule the world: Spell Compendium. Banning it will definitely have an effect. Those killer spells in the PHB, well, a DM should be better capable handling them or most players won't be motivated playing a wizard.
While in our group only the PHB spells are allowed, I always take this a little further and play a specialist wizard, taking Enchantment and Necromancy as prohibited schools. That kills some of the killer spells in the PHB, i guess. Of course there are still some that can be used. But as I said already, a good DM should be capable in working against / around them.
The power of wizards, especially at high levels, has been discussed over and over again. Wizards have power, without doubt.

As the "cheesy" DMM is concerned. I as a DM do not have any problems with it. A healer with DMM (Empower)? He can heal more damage. A buffer with DMM (Chain Spell)? Good job, buff all your buddies. A guy with DMM (Persistent): let them have it. If you really want to do something against a DMM (Persistent) buffed char and you're afraid that he will be able to break your BBEG encounter. Just let a NPC have one or two Greater Dispel Magic ready and let them use it. Et voila, those persistent buffs have been dispelled. And the char possibly has used nearly all of his turn attempts to get all his DMM (Persistent) buffs (Nightstick cheese is not allowed in my game). Let the party meet a bunch of (high level) undead from time to time. The players will become upset, if the cleric has no effective turn undead available, cause everyday he buffs himself with some persistent spells. Really, let some undead kick your pc's butts and look how that changes certain players' behavior.
Honestly, I as a DM always say: let your players play what they want (except some of the cheesiest things possible, like Pun-Pun e.g. or a Candle of Invocation abuse or a DMM / Nightstick abuse etc.) and find a way to challenge them nonetheless.

Just my 2 cents

Will

[Irreverent Fool]

In my experience, divine metamagic isn't all that bad, assuming you use the errata and don't let nightsticks stack. Natural spell is a tad worse because the druid can basically do everything himself and if he gets ahold of some wild armor and a wild shield, nothing can touch him.

Even without natural spell, a druid can just buff himself up before wildshaping, so there's not a huge difference.

The weak point of wizards is that, despite popular belief, they are not always prepared and the lousy fort/reflex saves combines with low HP can really show from time to time. CoDzilla and Druids don't have to worry about that at all.

I've seen Natural spell abuse and am guilty of DMM: Persist abuse as well. There's good reason to disallow these... but then there's good reason to disallow wizards as well.

...and find a way to challenge them nonetheless

This works fine as long as everyone is on roughly the same power level. When the campaign is tuned for the guys that can hit AC 40 on a roll of 3 and you're playing a rogue, THEN there's a problem. Just make sure everyone is having fun.

In closing: The DM can ban whatever he likes. You don't have to play with him.
obnoxious
sig

[RebelRogue]

Excluding Persistent DMM and Nightstick cheese, I don't think DMM is all that bad, really. If the player wants to powergame he can do that just fine with cleric core anyway. And for paladins it really gives them a bit of needed oomph. Divine Might/Vigour are your friends in that case.