[4e] More at-wills?

[Starsinger]

Spurred onward by a discussion with someone, I began to think. Would 4e be unbalanced in any way if you gave people more at wills? I mean, I understand it's useful for say, telling two Fighters apart, but would it really hurt?

I'd let humans have an additional at will though, beyond the limit. And I'd make some sort of deal with people like Paladins, Rangers, Clerics who are at a loss of at-wills since they're split between active stats.

So, bottom line, would having say 3 or 4 (+1 for humans) make 4e unbalanced in any way?

[Edge of Dreams]

Not unbalanced, just easier. And less interesting. Choosing your at-wills is a key part of character creation. Some classes (ranger, etc.) have only one really great at-will, and the rest are just okay, nice to have in certain cercumstances. Other classes would gain a lot more from this (wizard especially).

[NPCMook]

Humans already gain an additional At-will power

[Starsinger]

Not unbalanced, just easier. And less interesting. Choosing your at-wills is a key part of character creation. Some classes (ranger, etc.) have only one really great at-will, and the rest are just okay, nice to have in certain cercumstances. Other classes would gain a lot more from this (wizard especially).

All valid comments, for the purpose of the discussion, pretend the list of at-wills was large enough that you could have two fighters with different at wills still.

Humans already gain an additional At-will power

Yes I know. I said that because if I give everyone say 3 at wills, Humans feel sad. So, I was clarifying. If everyone gets 3 at wills umans get 4, for example.

[LotharBot]

It would not unbalance the game terribly to increase the number of at-wills people have. It probably wouldn't even hurt to let them design a custom at-will that fits their character concept, as long as you made sure it scaled well.

[kjones]

I think the best way to do this is just to have a party of all humans. I've considered doing this for other editions, and it would work out reasonably for everyone. Having 4 at-wills is just crazy, though - especially because most classes don't have 4 at-wills that are reasonable for a single character to have.

[Edge of Dreams]

All valid comments, for the purpose of the discussion, pretend the list of at-wills was large enough that you could have two fighters with different at wills still.

Ah, okay, if, for example, there were 6 different at-wills available, then giving each character 3 (4 if human) would not be so bad in terms of character differentiation. The hard part is making sure at-wills for any given class are both varied enough to make having more significantly beneficial, while not so varied as to offer a custom power for every situation. The ranger is an example of not enough variety, while the wizard is an example of too much, assuming more at-wills are granted.

I think this would make the game more fun, overall. I just worry about the details.

[bosssmiley]

Yeah, it should be fine. I mean, at-will powers are the basic things your class allows you to do all day, right? It's not like you're dishing out extra uses of 1/day abilities.

[Tengu_temp]

<Yami, who's voiced by Dan Green>Fine by me.</Yami>

[Erk]

Already doing it in my game, to a larger degree.

All players have 3 at wills, and humans have 4.

At level 4, they get a choice from several custom at-wills I'm writing for their character or the missing class at-will if there is one.

They also know 2 encounter abilities every time they gain an encounter "slot", but can only use one of those abilities per encounter. So, for example, our warlord knows Leaf on the Wind and Hammer and Anvil, but can't use them both in one encounter.

Since we have no repetition between character classes there is no problem with variability, and having the extra options makes things much, much more enjoyable. I don't find the game much easier so far

[Vortling]

The biggest challenge for something like this is the extra at-will powers that need to be added to each class. I'd say you need to add a minimum of 2 at-wills to each class so each 'build' has 3 options that are worth taking. This is especially true for classes like clerics where their different builds have different attack stats. Classes like Fighters and Warlords don't have as much problem since their attack stat doesn't vary.

If you can manage that, more at-wills isn't unbalanced at all. Related Question, would the extra at-wills all have to come from your class or could you pick up some cross class at-wills as well?

[Hal]

The biggest challenge for something like this is the extra at-will powers that need to be added to each class. I'd say you need to add a minimum of 2 at-wills to each class so each 'build' has 3 options that are worth taking. This is especially true for classes like clerics where their different builds have different attack stats. Classes like Fighters and Warlords don't have as much problem since their attack stat doesn't vary.

If you can manage that, more at-wills isn't unbalanced at all. Related Question, would the extra at-wills all have to come from your class or could you pick up some cross class at-wills as well?

Agreed. I'm playing a healer/blaster cleric, with high wis/cha and dumped str. I already have 3 at-wills, and a 4th would do nothing for me.

[Shadow_Elf]

I like this idea, but there is also the issue of the Warlock. Their At-wills are very pact specific. I'd say each pact would need multiple at-wills for this to work out.

That being said, maybe we should open up a Thread on the Homebrew forums for new 4e at-wills?

[Townopolis]

Man, I'd love to homebrew some at-wills. Moggy needs a special charge to eke some extra advantage out of all his athleticism feats.

I'm generally in favor of having more options in combat. It's difficult to have too many options. IMO, it just makes combat more interesting the more decision points you are presented with.

Spoiler

Show

Sudden Pounce: level 1 ranger
You leap upon you enemy, closing distance with frightening speed. As they scramble to deflect your first, wild swing, they leave an opening for your real attack.
At-Will*Melee*Weapon
Range: Melee
Special: You must be wielding two weapons
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Strength VS. Ref (offhand)
Hit: 1[W]+Str damage (offhand)
Special: You may use this as a basic attack while charging.
- Raise to 2[W] at 21

I don't know how that stacks up, but it's a weapon attack targeting a non-AC defense, so you've effectively got +3 to attack against most enemies.

[Starsinger]

If you can manage that, more at-wills isn't unbalanced at all. Related Question, would the extra at-wills all have to come from your class or could you pick up some cross class at-wills as well?

I was considering allowing your 4th at will (if I go with 4 at wills for non humans) which you'd gain at ~ level 6 to be from your Multiclass (if you have one). Half-Elves, as an extension of Dilettante, at change it from being usable encountery, to their third at will.

I like this idea, but there is also the issue of the Warlock. Their At-wills are very pact specific. I'd say each pact would need multiple at-wills for this to work out.

That being said, maybe we should open up a Thread on the Homebrew forums for new 4e at-wills?

Human Warlocks already get another at-will of their choice.

[Zocelot]

I like the idea of getting 2 at-wills at level one, and then additional at-wills depending on your PP and ED when you get to levels 11 and 21.

Versatility does give more power to the PCs, so the DM would have to adjust encounters accordingly.

[RPGuru1331]

I think it'll work out mostly fine, really. PCs may end up slightly more powerful, but it shouldn't be a problem unless you're giving them Dailies as At Wills or some craziness.

[nows7]

Over the last four hours at work, between actual work, I typed up a nice long detailed account of why I don't think adding an extra at will at-wills adds much to the game and it's benifits aren't evenly distributed. Saddly, I took to long and lost it all when i tried to submit it, having been logged out server side.... :*(

Like the OP says, clerics and pallies and human rangers don't gain much; However non-human rangers get alot - both of the TWF/Archery powers, plus their build specific option. Humans in general really lose ground all in all though. They loose their iconic "quickest to learn" as a feature, and instead just get an additonal power that isn't for their build; however that might be made up for by giving humans an addtional +2 to an ability score.

The real loss in my opinion is in the lesser variety of at-wills possible. With two at wills, there are 6 combos - three at-wills give only 4 combos, and with FOUR at wills there is no variety.

That could be fixed by homebrewing more at-wills, but that's not a course of action I like.

Now, for my to CP, would be not to give the PC's anything extra until Paragon tier. At 11th, i'd let the players have their Lvl 1 encounter power twice an encounter or perhaps as a recharge 5,6 like a monster might. Once they reached epic level and the at-will power bump happend, I'd make the encounter power strait at-will.