How do you deal with cultural insensitivity in D&D/with D&D players?

[celestialkin]

OK, so yesterday I was playing with my weekly group, and a player playing a paladin got in a little argument with the group over the whole "poisons are evil" argument.

I tried to explain nicely that cultures throughout history IRL have used poisons to hunt and in war. I also mentioned that my great grandmother was a Native South American who came from such a tribe, and that down there it is a central and important part of those cultures, which is also vital for their survival. I also tried to explain that in D&D mechanics, a sword with a vial of poison spread on it in melee is no different than a sword with electric damage or an ability/stat damaging property on it, and that the main issue with it is using poison in a "cowardly" fashion.

He then rudely interrupted, shaking his head vigorously with his arms crossed and I believe his words were something on the lines of "I don't care, all poisons are evil!".

I honestly had an urge to smack him. I would have if I didn't know him so well, and for so long.

[Tsotha-lanti]

You deal with it by not mixing real-world culture(s) with D&D.

In D&D, all poisons may indeed be evil, for no reason other than that the DM/a sourcebook says so. In the real world, there may be no such thing as "evil." D&D does not attempt to model the real world - as if you hadn't noticed.

Trying to use some real-world connection as a trump card in a RPG discussion strikes me as a poorly thought-out tactic.

And here I was actually expecting a story about stereotypes or appropriation.

[hotel_papa]

I feel your pain. Truth is, some people are just pigheaded. I ran a game in Iraq with my fellow Marines, who are not known for their political correctness. It made for some discomfort at the table. If you are the DM, ruling poisons as non-evil is certainly your perogative. Though, I think your pally has some back-up, RAW. How does he feel about ravages? (BoED) The paladin is entitled to roleplay his understanding of evil. This is, by the way why I only ban two classes: Truenamer and Paladin. One is made of suck and the other seems based on the idea that you should be able to tell other players what to do. No, thank you.

That being said, how did that culture use poison to hunt? Doesn't that spoil the meat? Just curious.

HP

[kamikasei]

How do you deal with cultural insensitivity in general? How do you deal with anyone being an ass during a session? These are the real questions, then just apply B to A.

I would probably recommend talking to the player after the session.

[celestialkin]

You deal with it by not mixing real-world culture(s) with D&D.

In D&D, all poisons may indeed be evil, for no reason other than that the DM/a sourcebook says so. In the real world, there may be no such thing as "evil." D&D does not attempt to model the real world - as if you hadn't noticed.

Trying to use some real-world connection as a trump card in a RPG discussion strikes me as a poorly thought-out tactic.

And here I was actually expecting a story about stereotypes or appropriation.

Um, basically he screamed out (while winning like a child) that all my ancestors were evil, and that so are my distant cousins/relatives still out there in the amazon rain forest.

How would you feel about that?

[Kizara]

Try not taking it personally, going out of your way to make it MORE personal, and then getting even more offended when he dismisses your personal arguments and states ""I don't care, all poisons are evil!".

Let him enjoy his character and class, and don't let YOUR cultural bias interfere with how he is playing his character.

I find it very believable that a paladin would view posion as being evil, as it causes unneccesary suffering or is often used in a cowardly fashion (assassination, etc). This doesn't mean it isn't useful, practical, or widely-used. Murder is extremely often useful, practical and widely-applied in many cultures, it doesn't make it inherently non-evil.

Saying "in my IRL culture it isn't" is pretty much irrelivant TBH unless he is trying to say that posion has no practical use ever and noone would ever want to use it, or some such complete nonsense.

[celestialkin]

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That being said, how did that culture use poison to hunt? Doesn't that spoil the meat? Just curious.

HP

It is kinda interesting in my opinion.

Basically, they get these poisonous frogs that are extremely brightly colored, kill them and rub dart on their skin.

They then hunt with the darts in blowguns.

I have always wondered about how they avoid second hand poisoning. However, considering that they have survived this long I am guessing that they have figured out how to deal with that issue.

See some Discovery Channel or National Geographic. Well, NG only. Discovery is no long really about science or "discovery" any more...


Oh, and there are still a few tribes out there. However, I am certain they will probably all fade in my lifetime due to human cruelty, which makes me quite sad.

[Kizara]

It is kinda interesting in my opinion.

Basically, they get these poisonous frogs that are extremely brightly colored, kill them and rub dart on their skin.

They then hunt with the darts in blowguns.

I have always wondered about how they avoid second hand poisoning. However, considering that they have survived this long I am guessing that they have figured out how to deal with that issue.

See some Discovery Channel or National Geographic. Well, NG only. Discovery is no long really about science or "discovery" any more...


Oh, and there are still a few tribes out there. However, I am certain they will probably all fade in my lifetime due to human cruelty, which makes me quite sad.

As a complete aside, it's sad that posions suck so bad in 3.5 DnD. I rather enjoy playing the hunter trope (amounst others, including paladins; including right now a githyanki ranger//paladin) and would find posion use an interesting way to expand my playing in some of those characters.

[kamikasei]

Was he saying that poison was evil within the game, or in real life? If the former, I have to agree with others that a real-world example doesn't do much to clear up the mess that is in-game morality, and you shouldn't take it personally.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Um, basically he screamed out (while winning like a child) that all my ancestors were evil, and that so are my distant cousins/relatives still out there in the amazon rain forest.

How would you feel about that?

I could have sworn you said he was talking about the game, where poisons may, indeed, be evil, and which has no bearing on anything in the real world.

You should not have mixed a sensitive real-world matter up with a game.

Did you actually address this with the DM? Did you say, "Hey, that's a bit offensive - are you saying my culture is evil?" Or did you, you know, huff and puff and come write a rant online? (I'd say that's passive-aggressive, but that's not even remotely what the term means, despite popular usage, so...)

And I, not being any kind of a nationalist, couldn't care less what anyone thinks of ancient Finns (and their habit of murdering foreign clergymen on frozen lakes). Never mind that, objectively, most ancient cultures were pretty heinous in ways too many to count.

[celestialkin]

Was he saying that poison was evil within the game, or in real life? If the former, I have to agree with others that a real-world example doesn't do much to clear up the mess that is in-game morality, and you shouldn't take it personally.

I am certain out.

Me, and the DM were explaining the same thing. And I believe the other player who was there said something as well. If the DM is explaining that it is not a moral evil no-no, then I am guessing it wasn't in game.

[hamishspence]

all acids, are, technically, poisons. But there is no rule saying Acid damage is evil. I think pulling it out in 4th ed was one of their better decisions.

[celestialkin]

Did you actually address this with the DM? Did you say, "Hey, that's a bit offensive - are you saying my culture is evil?" Or did you, you know, huff and puff and come write a rant online? (I'd say that's passive-aggressive, but that's not even remotely what the term means, despite popular usage, so...)

Geez...

No, I have problems (emotional and mental) which throughout my life have made me prone to rash and bad outbursts/decisions. Hence my urge to smack him, and my more recent urge to how I originally wanted to reply to you just now. So I decided to cool down, come on here, ask if others have had similar experiences or have helpful advice and if they would share them with me so I can better judge what to do, then I got some sprite and a snack while I wait for replies.


Now kindly, please leave this thread. You're not giving any productive help.

[Kizara]

all acids, are, technically, poisons. But there is no rule saying Acid damage is evil. I think pulling it out in 4th ed was one of their better decisions.

Most of my evil characters have a liking for acid weapons for exactly this reason. That and screaming (sonic), because it's cool and intimidating.

[charl]

all acids, are, technically, poisons. But there is no rule saying Acid damage is evil. I think pulling it out in 4th ed was one of their better decisions.

Acid = Poison makes no sense at all. Seriously. In that case vinegar would be a poison, and lemons and lots and lots of other stuff including the very building blocks of our (IRL) life. Plus IRL dangerous acids aren't considered poisons IIRC. They are corrosive, and that may cause severe irritation and loss of body parts, but they are not poisonous.

On the other hand D&D acid doesn't make sense. I figure the damage-dealing D&D acids are magical or at least supernatural by our reality's standard.

EDIT: As for the OP's question. I figure that you should ask him if he was talking about in-game or generally, and then deal with it when you know. Confront him and all that.

Can't say I've ever had any experiences like this in a game, but I'm extremely tolerant of other people, especially if they use ethnics slurs about my own ethnicity since I do it myself anyway. Swedish people suck. I'm no exception.

[hamishspence]

maybe its more a legal thing- if someone is fed acid and keels over, verdict may be Death By Poisoning.

Though this may be a massive oversimplification.

[hamishspence]

maybe phrase should have been "Killing someone by injecting acid into them, or feeding them it, counts as Poisoning them." Wasn't so much the scientific use of the term poisoning, as the colloquial use.

[newbDM]

maybe its more a legal thing- if someone is fed acid and keels over, verdict may be Death By Poisoning.

Though this may be a massive oversimplification.

Can you feed someone acid? I would figure the burning and such would be more of an issue/culprit.

[Maroon]

all acids, are, technically, poisons. But there is no rule saying Acid damage is evil. I think pulling it out in 4th ed was one of their better decisions.

Er, not really? Strong acids are corrosive substances and can cause burns. Poisons can cause illness, tissue damage and death when absorbed in a large enough dose by an organism. Furthermore, a substance that causes tissue damage but is not absorbed is classified as a corrosive, not a poison. All D&D acids, by virtue of burning your face off, are thus not poisons. They're distinct properties.

Acid damage is about as evil as fire damage or electric damage. It depends on if you see maiming someone as evil.

[hamishspence]

Ah, I see. I've also seen references to powdered glass being used as a "poison" and it doesn't kill by absorption, but laceration.

Maybe term gets used too widely, and only substances that cause death by absorption into the body, count as poisons.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Just about everything can be poisonous if the dose is right.

Alle Ding sind Gift, und nichts ohn Gift; allein die Dosis macht, daß ein Ding kein Gift ist.

But the corrosive properties of acid is probably reason enough to describe it as acid rather than poison, just like we do not generally refer to water as poison.

[hamishspence]

some things combine traits. I've heard plutonium is both poisonous and radioactive.

Also, what does Death By Fed Allergen count as?

EDIT:
Then there's terms like Toxin and Venom.

One trope I've seen for villains and poisons is them accidentally spilling a drop on a surface- and the surface starts smoking.

[Douglas]

Did you ask why he considers poison evil? It could be that your argument was simply irrelevant to him rather than insufficient.

[Saph]

Um, basically he screamed out (while winning like a child) that all my ancestors were evil, and that so are my distant cousins/relatives still out there in the amazon rain forest.

How would you feel about that?

I think you're taking this way too personally. Part of the reason that people play D&D is that it's a fantasy world where you can play around with stuff like this and have silly arguments that don't relate to the real world. If he'd actually said, "your ancestors were evil" I'd understand you being angry, but he didn't. He said that he thought poisons were evil, which is completely different.

Bear in mind that everyone's ancestors have, over a long enough length of history, done things that were considered evil. This means that whenever anyone says that anything is evil, then by the standards you're using they're being 'insensitive' to everyone else (and themselves).

My advice? Shrug it off. If he's your friend, then this would be a really really trivial thing to lose a friendship over.

- Saph

[Tsotha-lanti]

I think the technical distinction is that a poisonous animal uses a toxin as a defense (against being eaten, etc.), while a venomous animal uses a toxin as an attack (to subdue or kill prey, etc.).

For people, "poisoning" is just about anything harmful getting into your system.

Acid definitely isn't a poison, though.

If the DM is explaining that it is not a moral evil no-no, then I am guessing it wasn't in game.

This doesn't make sense to me. The discussion seemed to concern the in-game morality of poisons. You need something stronger than an assumption to conclude that the DM was speaking about poison out of game.

Now kindly, please leave this thread. You're not giving any productive help.

Yeah, I'll get right on that, oh great King of Thread.

I think you meant that I'm not saying what you want to hear.

My advice still applies: don't drag real-world matters you are sensitive about into the game. It's a great way to avoid being offended.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

some things combine traits. I've heard plutonium is both poisonous and radioactive.

Certainly, so it is a balancing act.
Plutonium is easy though, you generally should not eat it or give it to your children to play with, but labeling all water bottles as potentially toxic seems excessive.

Also, what does Death By Fed Allergen count as?

Respiratory arrest due to anaphylaxis is my guess.
Just because something is poisonous given the right dose does not mean that it is the cause of death.
Drinking acid would probably result in drowning before intoxication occurs as would being submerged in water.

EDIT:
Then there's terms like Toxin and Venom.

Well, venom are natural biological poisons that are typically injected through a sting or bite and used by the animal for defense or attack.

[hamishspence]

And would the person who slips a big dose of Essence of Nut into his enemy's dinner be labelled a "Poisoner"?

My guess is, in fantasy settings, D&D, etc, poison is considered an exceptionally dishonorable method of dealing with an enemy.

Exalted Deeds reason was "unnecessary suffering" Which suggests they would have to be pretty excruciating, to cause more suffering than being chopped to bits by an enthusiatic adventurer.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Exalted Deeds reason was "unnecessary suffering" Which suggests they would have to be pretty excruciating, to cause more suffering than being chopped to bits by an enthusiatic adventurer.

Well, Exalted Deeds - and everything else dealing in detail with D&D morality as written, really - is an elaborate exercise in ham-handed apologism and ad-hoc reasoning.

[hamishspence]

Funny thing is, people moan about D&D poisons being ineffective, but, at least some, can expect to kill average commoner within one minute, and unlucky commoner in less than 6 seconds, through skin absorption (Black Lotus)

As far as I know, real world poisons aren't that deadly or quick-acting.

[bosssmiley]

OK, so yesterday I was playing with my weekly group, and a player playing a paladin got in a little argument with the group over the whole "poisons are evil" argument.

<trim>

He then rudely interrupted, shaking his head vigorously with his arms crossed and I believe his words were something on the lines of "I don't care, all poisons are evil!".

I honestly had an urge to smack him. I would have if I didn't know him so well, and for so long.

Sounds like the player was really getting into the paladin's mindset there. Are you sure he wasn't speaking in character at the time?

I wonder how the character reconciles animals that use poison with his black-and-white prohibition. If it's not going to create friction with the player you could explore this, otherwise just let it ride.