Assassins? Evil?

[Mindleshank]

Alright well first off i want to know why the assassin prestige class is evil. I'm DMing a campaign where there is a bounty hunters guild and an assassin is a bounty hunter why does he have to be evil.

[Tengu_temp]

There are two reasons:
1. One of the fluff requirements is to kill someone just to get to the guild, without question. That's evil.
2. By RAW, using poisons in DND is evil.

Scrap those requirements (they are both quite retarded anyway) and there you go.

[FoE]

I suppose assassins who are dedicated to bringing down tyrants and saving people by taking one life could be construed as good ... but their methods are still Evil, and so even that would count as "Evil, but for a Good cause."

[Draco Dracul]

I don't really get why assassins are automatically evil either. I mean an assassin is just someone who kills people for money and well most PC's go around killing people to take their money (which makes them thugs). I don't really see why being an assassin is inheriently more evil than being a thug.

[phoenixcire]

I need help, I've been trying to find where it says that using poison is evil but I cannot find it.

[Draco Dracul]

I suppose assassins who are dedicated to bringing down tyrants and saving people by taking one life could be construed as good ... but their methods are still Evil, and so even that would count as "Evil, but for a Good cause."

If Evil actions take out Evil people for a good cause, I would call it nuetral personally.

[hamishspence]

there is that Exalted prestige class Slayer of Domiel. Why them doing assassinations is OK but no-one else is, might be hard to explain, unless you use some interesting justification. Like:

They are dedicated to killing fiends. And some fiends can change shape, infiltrate power system, work their way to the top, corrupt country, easiest way to fix things is- remove the Fiend.

[FoE]

If Evil actions take out Evil people for a good cause, I would call it nuetral personally.

Where does it stop, though? When do we tell the villain who says "The ends justify the means" to shut his damn mouth, because there's no good reasons for his actions?

"I'm trying to take over the world and willing to step on anyone who gets in my way, including my Evil allies. But I think I would be a good ruler, so I guess that makes me Neutral."

Assassins are Evil. Accept it.

[Mindleshank]

If Evil actions take out Evil people for a good cause, I would call it nuetral personally.

Yeah i was thinking Chaotic neutral would be perfectly acceptable in this situation

[phoenixcire]

[quote}"I'm trying to take over the world and willing to step on anyone who gets in my way, including my Evil allies. But I think I would be a benevolent ruler, so I guess that makes me Neutral."[/quote]

That's using Evil to promote more Evil. I think the situation is more like "If you poison the BBEG, is it Evil or Good?"

[EvilElitest]

its the whole murder thing, murder is evil absolutly, and thus most assassins are evil. Through i could see a neutral assassin working through
from
EE

[zaei]

I need help, I've been trying to find where it says that using poison is evil but I cannot find it.

It's in the Book of Exalted Deeds, which says that poisons that cause ability damage are evil, and then goes on to describe substances that cause ability damage, but are A-OK for good characters to use because THEY ARE DEFINITELY NOT POISONS, and only affect evil things.

It also handwaves away the fact that even though spiders and what-not use poison, they are still neutral.

Yes, the BoED is a very silly book.

[Draco Dracul]

its the whole murder thing, murder is evil absolutly, and thus most assassins are evil. Through i could see a neutral assassin working through
from
EE

Right I'm thinking that an assassin that only kills the most evil of evil people (not say every criminal everywhere a la Death Notes's Light Yagami, but more like a man who sees it as his mission to take out the Stalins of the world) could count as nuetral.

[Mewtarthio]

The thing is that assassination is considered immoral because it's a sort of informal agreement between all world leaders: Nobody wants to be assassinated, so people don't use assassins. Unfortunately for DnD, that would make assassination Chaotic, not Evil.

[The Rose Dragon]

Yes, D&D is a very silly game.

Fixed it for ya.

[Draco Dracul]

Also why are assassins required to be evil, but not ninja's? Ninja's were for all intents and purposes assassins from Japan.

[Copacetic]

Lets break it down.

Heroes kill bad things. Hereos=good.

Assassins kill things. Assassins=bad.

If Assassin kills bad things, then assassin=hero=good. K?

[EvilElitest]

Right I'm thinking that an assassin that only kills the most evil of evil people (not say every criminal everywhere a la Death Notes's Light Yagami, but more like a man who sees it as his mission to take out the Stalins of the world) could count as nuetral.

it could, but the act of murder is evil, so your treading on very thin ice there. The act of murder is always absolutely evil, no matter what the situation is (short of being mind controlled of course) so you wouldnt be able to pull that off for long. True, you could just kill people the normal way

Remember, even people like Stalin are still human beings, so murder is still murder.
from
EE

[Mewtarthio]

Lets break it down.

Heroes kill bad things. Hereos=good.

Assassins kill things. Assassins=bad.

If Assassin kills bad things, then assassin=hero=good. K?

No, no, no, you got it all wrong:

Heroes kill bad things. Heroes = good.

Assassins are killed by heroes. Ergo, assassins = bad.

[Ganurath]

Also why are assassins required to be evil, but not ninja's? Ninja's were for all intents and purposes assassins from Japan.

Ninjas kill for a cause greater than themselves: Sometimes an ideal, but usually a lord they serve. If the lord is good, they're killing bad stuff, and are good. If they serve an evil lord, they're just like assassins.

[Mewtarthio]

it could, but the act of murder is evil, so your treading on very thin ice there. The act of murder is always absolutely evil, no matter what the situation is (short of being mind controlled of course) so you wouldnt be able to pull that off for long. True, you could just kill people the normal way

Oh, I get it now! Breaking into a human's home and killing him because he's evil and is causing untold pain and suffering is murder. Breaking into a dragon's home and killing him because he's evil and has lots of shineys is "the normal way."

[Ravens_cry]

Lets break it down.

Heroes kill bad things. Hereos=good.

Assassins kill things. Assassins=bad.

If Assassin kills bad things, then assassin=hero=good. K?

I don't like the Heroes kill Bad Things equation. Heroes kill Things who do Bad Things (no innuendo intended) is a bit better.

[The Rose Dragon]

Oh, I get it now! Breaking into a human's home and killing him because he's evil and is causing untold pain and suffering is murder. Breaking into a dragon's home and killing him because he's evil and has lots of shineys is "the normal way."

In EE's view of morality and ethics: Yes, that is about right.

[Copacetic]

No, no, no, you got it all wrong:

Heroes kill bad things. Heroes = good.

Assassins are killed by heroes. Ergo, assassins = bad.

Not quite. "Heroes kill Things who do Bad Things", therefore, if assassins kill bad things like heroes, they are good, and do not get killed by heroes, because they do not do bad things.

[FMArthur]

I'd link to the Avenger... but this thread is making me see that you shouldn't avoid the problem of the stupid alignment rules from WotC. You need to outright houserule the alignment rules to be bull****, cut them out of your books, and then get on with your game.

[hamishspence]

I remember another theory: aggressive violence is bad- initiating the use of violence is bad. But responding to it, using violence to protect others from those who initiate violence, is Good.

Or "Anger, fear, aggression, the dark side are they" "A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack"

Many references in Exalted Deeds stress things like this. village of evil orcs that hasn't attacked anyone- Attack is not OK. Village that routinely attacks others- attack is OK.

[EvilElitest]

Oh, I get it now! Breaking into a human's home and killing him because he's evil and is causing untold pain and suffering is murder. Breaking into a dragon's home and killing him because he's evil and has lots of shineys is "the normal way."

Well depends if dragons are always evil. If your in ebberon i wouldn't think so

In EE's view of morality and ethics: Yes, that is about right.

not my view, my morals are irrelevant here, its about WoTCs
from
EE

[Starbuck_II]

Assassins are evil because as a special requirement: you have to kill someone for no other reason than wanting to join.

Killing some for no good reason is evil.

Really, that is it. It is actually very simple.

If you change the Prereqs (Slayer of Domiel and Avenger show how) it becomes good or Lawful.

[hamishspence]

I've seen lots of "they're supplements- they don't count" but without them, you can justify pretty much anything, since nothing in PHB defines specific evil acts.

[puppyavenger]

Assassins are evil because as a special requirement: you have to kill someone for no other reason than wanting to join.

Killing some for no good reason is evil.

Really, that is it. It is actually very simple.

If you change the Prereqs (Slayer of Domiel and Avenger show how) it becomes good or Lawful.

so do do the requirement.


go to Abyss
kill dretch

BING requirement completed.