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Thread: Cheap Metamagic

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    NinjaGuy

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    Question Cheap Metamagic

    what are all the ways an arcane caster can make matamagic cheaper?

    kind of likd how clerics have divine metamagic, what do Sorc/Wiz have?

    i'll bet a thread has already been made on this. If so please send me a link.

    THANKS!

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    The Metamagic School Focus feat lets you reduce the cost of any metamagic feat by one, three times per day, if the feat is used on a spell from the chosen school, no minimum given. Assume +0.
    This feat can be found in: Complete Mage.

    The Arcane Thesis feat makes each metamagic applied to the chosen spell cost less by one, no minimum given. Assume +0.
    This feat can be found in: Player's Handbook 2.

    The Ultimate Magus prestige class can use spell slots from one class to pay the cost of metamagic feats used on the other class, a limited number of times per day.
    This Prestige Class can be found in: Complete Mage.

    The Practical Metamagic feat reduces the cost of a chosen metamagic feat by one, minimum +1.
    This feat can be found in: Races of the Dragon.

    Metamagic rods are nice, but expensive.
    These items can be found in: www.d20srd.com

    The Metanode Spell feat reduces the cost of metamagic by the node's class number, no minimum given. Assume minimum +0. It's limited to metamagic used within the area of a node, of course, so not practical for most adventures.
    This feat can be found in: Champions of Ruin.

    The Residual Magic tactical feat does this: if you cast a spell with a metamagic effect, and then cast it again the next round, the second casting gets the metamagic effect for free. Limitations are: second spell only gets one metamagic effect, even if the first spell had several. Only works with metamagic effects generated by you (no rods, etc.). The free effect doesn't count as metamagic, so among other things it doesn't trigger the feat again.
    This feat can be found in: Complete Mage.
    Last edited by OzymandiasVolt; 2008-10-27 at 09:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Arcane Thesis, Instant Metamagic (either from Incantatrix or the epic feat), and Easy Metamagic (dragon magazine) are the big ones.

    The real trick is that with Arcane Thesis you can use +0 metamagic (such as Invisible Spell or Energy Substitution) to gain a -1 that you can apply to some other metamagic.

    So let's say that you have Arcane Thesis: Orb of Fire, Energy Substitution: Cold, Energy Adaption: Cold, Easy Metamagic: Energy Adaption, and Invisible Spell.

    You could use an Invisible (-1), Energy Substituted (-1), Energy Adapted (+3), Orb of Fire in a 5th level spell slot (+1 total level).

    Throw in Instant Metamagic and it doesn't up the level at all (while doubling the damage dealt).
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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    It says Minimum +1 for Arcane Thesis. Doesn't that mean it can't be applied to +0 metamagic feats at all?

    Unless there is text somewhere explicitly stating what happens when you apply Arcane thesis to a +0 metamagic effect.

    EDIT: Sorry, I was thinking maybe of Improved Metamagic, the Epic feat.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2008-10-26 at 04:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    The real trick is that with Arcane Thesis you can use +0 metamagic (such as Invisible Spell or Energy Substitution) to gain a -1 that you can apply to some other metamagic.
    This was recently errata'd. There's an added line:
    "A spell cannot be reduced below its original level with the use of this feat."

    EDIT: The errata is available here.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2008-10-26 at 04:26 PM.
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    smile Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by OzymandiasVolt View Post
    The Metamagic School Focus feat lets you reduce the cost of any metamagic feat by one, three times per day, if the feat is used on a spell from the chosen school, no minimum given. Assume +0.

    The Arcane Thesis feat makes all metamagic applied to the chosen spell cost less by one, no minimum given. Assume +0.

    Ultimate Magus PrC can use spell slots from one class to pay the cost of metamagic feats used on the other class, a limited number of times per day.

    The Practical Metamagic feat reduces the cost of a chosen metamagic feat by one, minimum +1.

    Metamagic rods are nice, but expensive.

    The Metanode Spell feat reduces the cost of metamagic by its class number, no minimum given. Assume minimum +0. It's limited to metamagic used within the area of a node, of course, so not practical for most adventures.

    The Residual Magic tactical feat does this: if you cast a spell with a metamagic effect, and then cast it again the next round, the second casting gets the metamagic effect for free. Limitations are: second spell only gets one metamagic effect, even if the first spell had several. Only works with metamagic effects generated by you (no rods, etc.). The free effect doesn't count as metamagic, so among other things it doesn't trigger the feat again.
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    what book is the metanode spell feat in?
    what book is the practical metamagic feat in?

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel
    This was recently errata'd. There's an added line:
    "A spell cannot be reduced below its original level with the use of this feat."
    Right; that only means you can't cast Orb of Fire from 0-level spell slots.

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    By Original level, doesn't that mean- level it started out as: Fireball, multiple arane-thesis effects, still, at least level 3?

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Temp. View Post
    Right; that only means you can't cast Orb of Fire from 0-level spell slots.
    Hm, true. I thought they'd have fixed it when they assigned the errata :P Oh well.
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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    I don't get it. Thesis errata seemed to imply Original level. so, Invisible, Energy substituted fireball would still be 3rd level, not 1st.

    Though, I suppose lots of 0th level plus lots of + several levels metamagic feats combined, gets round that.

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Incantatrix prc (players guide to faerun). Almost every single level of the 10 is pure winsauce (not only the instant metamagic). Its so good its cheesy.

    Not only can you fix your own spells without spell level adjustments, you can fix those of your fellow party member casters as well, so it has built in "dont hog the spotlight by being too awesome"-protection. All it takes is optimizing your spellcraft checks a bit (+ skill items, aid another from fellow party members, item familiar, ...)
    Last edited by goram.browncoat; 2008-10-26 at 04:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Complete Scoundrel has a 3 level Prc (2/3rd progression)) that lets you use a Metamagic feat with no slot adjustment but can't be more than +4. But only 1/day
    Magical Trickster.

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Temp. View Post
    Right; that only means you can't cast Orb of Fire from 0-level spell slots.
    You're thinking of lesser orb. Orb of fire is a 4th level spell.
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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Incantatrix is definitely one of the cheesiest best ways to do this.


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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    i think rule is, if you're just using Arcane Thesis, no matter how many -1 adjustments you stack on from Thesised metamagic feats, final level of spell must be original level, or higher.

    Which is what you use all those higher level (+1, +2, +3, even after thesis), feats for.

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    The RAI is, you can't get negative adjustments from metamagic feats.

    RAW, unfortunately, does not spell this out, so TECHNICALLY, you can.

    Their mistake was limiting the errata to a specific feat instead of covering metamagic in general.
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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    By Original level, doesn't that mean- level it started out as: Fireball, multiple arane-thesis effects, still, at least level 3?
    That is correct.

    The FAQ used a different interpretation before the errata. I guess sometimes it is difficult to make up ones mind...
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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy_ninja View Post

    what book is the metanode spell feat in?
    what book is the practical metamagic feat in?
    Metanode Spell - Champions of Ruin
    Pracitcal Metamagic - Races of the Dragon

    Edit: Haha, I didn't realize Ozymandias altered his post. Very informative and thanks - disregard this repetition.
    Last edited by Kantolin; 2008-10-26 at 05:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I don't get it. Thesis errata seemed to imply Original level. so, Invisible, Energy substituted fireball would still be 3rd level, not 1st.

    Though, I suppose lots of 0th level plus lots of + several levels metamagic feats combined, gets round that.
    Yes, but you can still have a Heightened Quickened Twinned Energy Admixed Widened Repeated Maximized Fell Animate Delayed Fell Frighten Fell Drain Explosive Empowered Silent Still Transdimensional Sculpted Fell Weaken Fell Energy Enlarged Blistering Fireball of doom, and with enough +0 adjustments and whatnot it could get back down to level 3.

    Anyone care to figure out how to pull that combo off? Or what it would do?
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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    The slaymate, arguably one of the worst D+D monsters, has an aura that makes necromancy spells cast at metamagic -1.

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Also, how many -1 level spells per day does a person get?
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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg
    You're thinking of lesser orb. Orb of fire is a 4th level spell.
    Throw four different energy subs onto it and it would turn into a 0-level spell if it weren't for the errata.

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Dweomerkeeper also eventually gets -1 to all metamagics (to a minimum of +1, or +0 if the metamagic was originally +0). I think its available as a web enhancement for the complete divine.
    Last edited by JeminiZero; 2008-10-26 at 09:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Sacred exorcist lets you advance arcane, lets you enter as arcane, and has turn undead. Lets you use divine meta.

    Anima mage lets you do a free one every 5 rounds.

    Ultimate magus can cheapen it a decent amount.
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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    Sacred exorcist lets you advance arcane, lets you enter as arcane, and has turn undead. Lets you use divine meta.

    Anima mage lets you do a free one every 5 rounds.

    Ultimate magus can cheapen it a decent amount.
    DMM only applies to Divine spells, thus unless you have some way of making your arcane spells divine (Geomancer is the only way I can think of), it's not very practical for arcane users.

    However, Practical Metamagic for Still and Silent Spell makes for a caster who cannot be Counterspelled...
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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    DMM only applies to Divine spells, thus unless you have some way of making your arcane spells divine (Geomancer is the only way I can think of), it's not very practical for arcane users.
    There is also Alternate Source Spell.

    But you need to splash for 1 divine spell class to get it. Easiest is Cleric which also grants you turn undead for DMM Arcane spell abuse.

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    That's only stated in the fluff part of the feat, and not in the benefits mentioned in the ruling, as far as I can tell.

    Alternatively, follow up with 10 levels of rainbow disciple.
    Last edited by Yukitsu; 2008-10-26 at 10:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    I think WotC actually said somewhere that a single casting of a spell cannot benefit from Arcane Thesis more than once, i.e. using one metamagic feat on an Arcane Thesis spell gives it a -1 metamagic cost; using four metamagic feats on an Arcane Thesis spell still gives it only a -1 metamagic cost. I think the reasoning behind it is that feats taken/applied more than once do not stack with themselves, so Arcane Thesis cannot apply more than once to the same spell, it either gets a -1 to the total metamagic cost or it doesn't, the multiple -1's do not stack. Still, you could probably just use Sanctum Spell with Arcane Thesis outside your designated sanctum to make every spell cast from one slot lower, since Sanctum reverse-Heightens it by one level.

    Practical Metamagic (RotD) with Easy Metamagic (Dragon 325) are two great ways of accomplishing it, though each one costs a feat to do so. Easy Metamagic counts as a Metamagic feat, so it can be taken when you get a bonus feat of that type. Note in Practical Metamagic's wording, the spell's level must be one higher after everything is applied. If you get Practical Easy Split Ray and Practical Easy Maximize, you can cast a Maximized Split Enervation for only +1 spell level. According to the rules on applying your own bonuses and penalties in whatever order you choose, Practical Metamagic only checks that it's at +1 when it's applied, and another effect can be added after to further reduce it. Throw on Arcane Thesis and Sanctum Spell and you're dealing eight negative levels from a 3rd level spell slot, though for eight feats.

    Incantatrix (PGtF) is a completely broken class, seriously way too good, but it's the best class at improving metamagic. It wouldn't be anywhere near as broken as it is if you weren't able to buff yourself then use Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your buffs. As long as you take ten on the Spellcraft check, get Skill Focus, and start with at least Int 16 and put every 4th level point into it, you should only need a +20 Competence item to always be able to Persist your highest level spells. Usable Int bonus +3 times per day, it's better than Divine Metamagic. Removing Persistent Spell, or even just not allowing Metamagic Effect to be used with it, would make this class much more reasonable, but still so-good-every-Wizard-takes-it.

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    I think WotC actually said somewhere that a single casting of a spell cannot benefit from Arcane Thesis more than once, i.e. using one metamagic feat on an Arcane Thesis spell gives it a -1 metamagic cost; using four metamagic feats on an Arcane Thesis spell still gives it only a -1 metamagic cost. I think the reasoning behind it is that feats taken/applied more than once do not stack with themselves, so Arcane Thesis cannot apply more than once to the same spell, it either gets a -1 to the total metamagic cost or it doesn't, the multiple -1's do not stack. Still, you could probably just use Sanctum Spell with Arcane Thesis outside your designated sanctum to make every spell cast from one slot lower, since Sanctum reverse-Heightens it by one level.
    That's because of the Type Stacking rules, however the -1 is technically unnamed and technically a penalty so it doesn't apply in either case.

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    Default Re: Cheap Metamagic

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    That's because of the Type Stacking rules, however the -1 is technically unnamed and technically a penalty so it doesn't apply in either case.
    Untyped bonuses and penalties from the same source never stack.

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