Paizo's Barbarian interesting change

[Starbuck_II]

The new Barbarian is offerd up:
I like the change no more rage points used up top use Rage powers:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards...nateRageSystem

Basically, you get 4 + Con mod rounds in rage (in total). This increases by 2 round/level.

Rage powers can now be used infinitely as long as raging (making them useable more often).

I think that the Paizo team is learning.

Maybe old news though.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

It looks good to me; the Rage Point system was a little too powerful from what I had read about it. I have not actually played a Pathfinder Barbarian; but from the looks of it, oh Gods it looks powerful.

Paizo is doing well with reader suggestions, which makes for a better game. WoTC just jammed stuff down our throats, while Paizo is giving a chance to the players. Kudos to Paizo.

[Kurald Galain]

I think that the Paizo team is learning.

That is not old news. Considering the amount of fawning in their forums, I'm glad they can still hear some signal over the noise.

Anyway, the rage points were an overly complex kludge, so this new rule is a big improvement.

[bosssmiley]

That is not old news. Considering the amount of fawning in their forums, I'm glad they can still hear some signal over the noise.

Anyway, the rage points were an overly complex kludge, so this new rule is a big improvement.

^ This is truth. +1 this entire post.

The scaling on some of the abilities does seem a little tightfisted and grudging. That might be just a 'out-of-context from the rest of the class' thing though.

Example:

Powerful Blow (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 bonus to a single damage roll. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained. This power is used as a swift action before the roll to hit is made.

That is damage, and not TH, right? A whole extra point of damage, and another one on top of it every six levels! I might actually care if it was an extra die of damage.

Poor Jason. It seems he's being dragged kicking and screaming against his will in the direction of good, clean class design.

[Starbuck_II]

That is damage, and not TH, right? A whole extra point of damage, and another one on top of it every six levels! I might actually care if it was an extra die of damage.

Poor Jason. It seems he's being dragged kicking and screaming against his will in the direction of good, clean class design.

The benefit of damage as opposed to damage die is crits.

But yeah, it is good that slowly they are leaning to good class design.

If only they changed power attack back...

[Eldariel]

Wow. If Paizo keeps this up, they may actually end up making something worthwhile. Now someone just needs to tell them what's actually wrong in the game (and they might actually want to listen - they seem to have the "blablablabla, not listening"-gear on).

[Person_Man]

I would prefer that the hit points gained from Rage be treated like temporary hit points (lost first), which has been a house rule in my games for a long time. I'd also like the powers to be paced differently. Maybe something like:

Spoiler

Show

Barbarian
d12 hit die, 4 Skill points per level.

1) Rage:+4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will, -2 AC, (5+Barb level) rounds a day
2) Rage Power, Trap Sense = 1/2 Barbarian level
3) Rage Power
4) Rage Power, DR 1/-
5) Rage: +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 Will, -2 AC
6) Rage Power
7) Rage Power
8) Rage Power
9) Rage Power, DR 3/-
10) Rage: +8 Str, +8 Con, +4 Will, -2 AC
11) Rage Power
12) Rage Power
13) Rage Power
14) Rage Power, DR 6/-
15) Rage: +10 Str, +10 Con, +5 Will, -2 AC
16) Rage Power
17) Rage Power
18) Rage Power
19) Rage Power, DR 10/-
20) Rage: +12 Str, +12 Con, +6 Will, -2 AC

DR X/-: Always active.

Rage Powers:

Fast Movement: Whenever in a Rage, you gain +5 feet to your base movement. You may take this power multiple times.

Uncanny Dodge: You gain Uncanny Dodge. This ability is active at all times.

You may take this power a second time. If you do, you gain Improved Uncanny Dodge, which is active at all times.

You may take this power a third time. If you do, as long as you are not Surprised you may choose to activate your Rage as an immediate action, even before you have acted in the Initiative order. You may do this in response to an enemy's action as well. For example, you may rage after an enemy damages you to prevent death.

You may take this power a fourth time. If you do, you are never surprised. You automatically gain a chance to act in any Surprise round, and may take a full round action (instead of the normal standard action) during any Surprise round. In addition, you automatically succeed on any Sense Motive attempt to oppose a Bluff attempt to Feint against you.

Chaotic Mind: Once per rage a barbarian may reroll a failed Will save. This power is used as an immediate action after the save is failed. The barbarian must take the second result, even if it is worse. You may take this power a second time. If you do, then if you succeed on your re-rolled Will save from this power, the enemy who targeted you must Save or be Stunned for 1 round (DC = to the DC of effect against you).

Unpredictable Stance: Once per rage, you may make an immediate action to gain +1 Dodge bonus to attacks from any one enemy until the end of their turn. You may take this ability multiple times. Each time you take it, you may use it one additional time per rage, and the Dodge bonus increases by +1.

Intimidating Glare: Once per rage, you may Demoralize (see Intimidate Skill) all enemies that you threaten as a Swift action. You may take this power multiple times. Each time you take this power, you may use it one additional time per rage.

Mighty Swing: Once per rage as a free action you automatically may confirm any critical hit that you make. You may take this power multiple times. Each time you take this power, you may use it one additional time per rage.

Dauntless: You are no longer Fatigued after you rage.

You may take this power a second time. If you do, while you rage you are immune to Fatigue and Exhaustion effects, regardless of the source. This includes both magical and non-magical effects, such as fatigue that you may have accumulated from sleeping in armor, harsh environments, lack of food, etc. If you were Fatigued or Exhausted before your rage began, then those effects return after your rage is over.

Vengeful Vigor: Once per rage as an Immediate action after you hit and damage an enemy, you regain a number of hit points equal to 1/2 your Barbarian level + your Con bonus. You may take this Power multiple times. Each time you take it, you may use it one additional time per rage.

Quick Reflexes: The barbarian can make an additional attack of opportunity above the normal limit of one per round. This power is used as an immediate action when an opponent takes an action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Keen Senses: While in a rage you gain the Scent ability.

Fortification: While in a rage you gain 25% Fortification (immunity to Sneak Attack, critical hits, etc). This ability does not stack stack with Fortification from any other source. However, you may take this power up to 4 times. Each time you take it, you gain an additional 25% Fortification.

Anywho, however you slice it, I like the way they're going.

[Epinephrine]

I would prefer that the hit points gained from Rage be treated like temporary hit points (lost first), which has been a house rule in my games for a long time.

Hmm, I like the image of a raging barbarian fighting until he drops, or keeling over when he runs out of meadrenaline.

That said, I'd be happy with half the hit points being temporary and half being actual. Or a rule that when the rage ends, a number of hit points of damage equal to the amount that was gained while raging are converted to non-lethal damage. Still drops the barbarian that went past his limits, but non-lethally, and much more easily fixed.

[mabriss lethe]

looks pretty neat at 1st glance, but I really haven't looked that hard at te pathfinder stuff.

[Person_Man]

Hmm, I like the image of a raging barbarian fighting until he drops, or keeling over when he runs out of meadrenaline.

That said, I'd be happy with half the hit points being temporary and half being actual. Or a rule that when the rage ends, a number of hit points of damage equal to the amount that was gained while raging are converted to non-lethal damage. Still drops the barbarian that went past his limits, but non-lethally, and much more easily fixed.

That would be weaker then what I use, but it would work.

I've found that in my games that if a Barbarian is essentially taking Con damage at the end of every combat, then he usually ends up dead or unconscious. Alternatively, the Cleric has to run up to the Barbarian and heal him before his Rage ends. Neither situation is particularly realistic, nor is it helpful for roleplaying. "Well, I've killed everyone, but I have to stand here and be angry until Father Mulcahy comes over and heals me, again..." Also, Barbarians (and non full casters in general) tend to be very weak at higher levels. So I'm happy with anything that gives them a reasonable power bump. Note that my variant does not give them free fast movement at 1st level. And if they want Uncanny Dodge at 2nd level, they have to take it as a Rage power. This makes their low level awesomeness more balanced.

[Nero24200]

Wow. If Paizo keeps this up, they may actually end up making something worthwhile. Now someone just needs to tell them what's actually wrong in the game (and they might actually want to listen - they seem to have the "blablablabla, not listening"-gear on).

QFT, I think their ideas might have run alot smoother if they actually listened to the complaints their players made.

[Starbuck_II]

QFT, I think their ideas might have run alot smoother if they actually listened to the complaints their players made.

It isn't just that though.

They do listen to them, but the issue is their paradigm (or rather the way they think of the rules); they are similar to the Playtesters of 3.5.

They think D&D should be played a certain way/rules should be.
Did you see how much stuck on "no full bab for Monk" the designers are?

They are 100% positive they can fix it without changing the BAB. They went so far as letting them count as full bab for manuevers like grapple in the beta.

So you have to prove to them in a playtest how they idea isn't correct; before they tweak it.

[bosssmiley]

So you have to prove to them in a playtest how they idea isn't correct; before they tweak it.

And even then they fall back on their "reverse compatibility" defence (aka, "We will follow the wisdom of the Ancestors, even though we know this is dumb and broken").

[mabriss lethe]

Completely tangential, but I'm sort of falling for the Ferocity variant given in the Cityscape web enhancement.

[Hurlbut]

Completely tangential, but I'm sort of falling for the Ferocity variant given in the Cityscape web enhancement.

oh a direct link to the Cityscape's web enhancement please?

[mabriss lethe]

Cityscape web enhancement

Quick and dirty:
Takes con completely out of the rage equation. replaces with a bonus to dex. you lose out on the will save bonus and take a near meaningless ranged attack penalty on anything past 30 feet, but can use it as an immediate action (even flatfooted at start of combat for a juicy boost to initiative.) you end your rage in a sickened instead of a fatigued state.