Redeeming a BBEG... for as little as 4,000 GP (inc. VAT and P&P)

[Laurellien]

Helm of Opposite Alignment
This metal hat looks like a typical helmet. When placed upon the head, however, its curse immediately takes effect (Will DC 15 negates). On a failed save, the alignment of the wearer is radically altered to an alignment as different as possible from the former alignment—good to evil, chaotic to lawful, neutral to some extreme commitment (LE, LG, CE, or CG). Alteration in alignment is mental as well as moral, and the individual changed by the magic thoroughly enjoys his new outlook. A character who succeeds on his save can continue to wear the helmet without suffering the effect of the curse, but if he takes it off and later puts it on again, another save is required. The curse only works once; that is, a character whose alignment has been changed cannot change it again by donning the helmet a second time.

Only a wish or a miracle can restore former alignment, and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. (In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible.) If a character of a class with an alignment requirement is affected, an atonement spell is needed as well if the curse is to be obliterated. When a helm of opposite alignment has functioned once, it loses its magical properties.

Strong transmutation; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level; Price 4,000 gp;Weight 3 lb.

Is it really that simple and cheap? Just cast detect evil (if the captured BBEG is evil), and keep ramming the helmet onto their head until they stop showing up as evil.

Am I missing something here?

[Tsotha-lanti]

It's a bit of a switch, though. By the end of that, the PCs are probably evil-aligned, since brainwashing and magical compulsion are pretty evil. It's evil for a good end, but still an evil action. (Then again, I guess the BoED would tell you it's A-OK, since at least one of the Exalted spells does essentially the same. Uh, let's not start another 20-page thread about that one, though, okay?)

Incidentally, why would anyone ever wear a magical helm anyhow (especially one with a transmutation aura)? Unless it's got an assortment of incredibly expensive gems on it, it can't really be anything that's good for you. Worst cursed item ever.

Edit:
Then there's the whole mess about how exactly the helm works, and what changes. Does it change an evil character's motivations? Does it change an evil character's goals? Does it change the methods the evil character uses to achieve these? How quickly can the character revert back to evil alignment through "natural" alignment change? Characters of all alignments commit evil acts, and they're certainly not aware of their own alignment or concepts like "changing alignment". What stops the Neutral Evil zealot who becomes Neutral Good from going overboard pursuing the same goals?

Further, depending on the precise effect, ethically you might as well be murdering the character instead, since in many cases the alignment change would require a complete rewriting of who the person is, and of all the influences on their life since their birth.

It's really the worst cursed item ever, suitable for absolutely nothing. Figuring out its actual effects on either PCs or NPCs is too much work, and the results are next to nil and mostly annoying. It's not like the suddenly-evil PC is going to attack the rest of the party - they're still his friends, and he may remain rabidly loyal to them while being evil.

[Laurellien]

Further, depending on the precise effect, ethically you might as well be murdering the character instead, since in many cases the alignment change would require a complete rewriting of who the person is, and of all the influences on their life since their birth.

I never looked at it like that.

As far as the BoED goes, you can redeem a character by using diplomacy vs. will save + character level. So it's hard, but doable (unless you come up against an evil cleric of an evil deity, who gains his good base will, his wisdom, and a set of circumstance modifies worth a hefty whack).

If I am not mistaken, the spell you are referring to is 'Vision of Heaven' which is level 1, and just gives them a -1 will save against redemption...

[kamikasei]

If I am not mistaken, the spell you are referring to is 'Vision of Heaven' which is level 1, and just gives them a -1 will save against redemption...

I assume he means "Sanctify the Wicked" which imprisons the creature's soul in a gem for a year and reprograms them to be good little citizens of pure heart.

No, seriously.

[Irreverent Fool]

Does it change an evil character's motivations? Does it change an evil character's goals? Does it change the methods the evil character uses to achieve these? How quickly can the character revert back to evil alignment through "natural" alignment change? Characters of all alignments commit evil acts, and they're certainly not aware of their own alignment or concepts like "changing alignment". What stops the Neutral Evil zealot who becomes Neutral Good from going overboard pursuing the same goals?

...and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. (In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible.)

I imagine 'avoiding it in any way possible' would keep him from going back to his old ways. I do agree that using the helm in this way should be considered an evil act... on the other hand, I can also see it being used in this way to redeem the BBEG and let him see the error of his ways. "Welcome to the Light, friend. Quickly now, help us to stop your hordes before it is too late!" We're getting into the whole good/evil thing again.

Of course that's kind of got a 'creepy cult' vibe to it.

[Swordguy]

I assume he means "Sanctify the Wicked" which imprisons the creature's soul in a gem for a year and reprograms them to be good little citizens of pure heart.

No, seriously.

Wait...what?!

That's it. I don't care WHAT EE says about the BoED - it's off my "canon" list forever for that little bit of logical fallacy. I'm bookmarking this thread so I can pull it up anytime somebody says that the BoED must be right.

That's just...

*throws up hands in the air and goes to bed*

[jcsw]

As for making diplomacy checks to redeem someone, that DC is way too easy at any level for anyone whose main goal is the redemption of such creatures.

At level one, a evil cleric has a Will save of 2+4(Wis) and +1 for level, a good bard with maxed charisma has 4+4(Cha), the odds are already in the diplomancer's favor.
The next level the bard's synergy bonuses come into play, shifting the balance further towards the bard's favor.

[Laurellien]

I assume he means "Sanctify the Wicked" which imprisons the creature's soul in a gem for a year and reprograms them to be good little citizens of pure heart.

No, seriously.

Holy crap, I just read that spell. That should have [EVIL MWAHAHAHAHA] as it's descriptor.

[Aquillion]

Wait...what?!

That's it. I don't care WHAT EE says about the BoED - it's off my "canon" list forever for that little bit of logical fallacy. I'm bookmarking this thread so I can pull it up anytime somebody says that the BoED must be right.

That's just...

*throws up hands in the air and goes to bed*

They should call that spell Summon Clockwork Orange.

The only thing I can think of is that that might be acceptable for use on "always evil" creatures (they lack free will in matters of alignment anyway, so it's not like you're actually taking anything away from them.) If you do that to a demon -- in a setting where demons are literally always chaotic evil, no exceptions, and lack the capacity to be good without supernatural intervention -- then I could see it being non-evil, since you're basically just reversing the process that turned / created them as a demon in the first place. Basically, if it were restricted to use as a magical 'deprogramming' tool for use on creatures that are normally intrinsically bound to evil, I could see it working.

But the text of the spell doesn't even make it clear whether or not it can be used that way... and does make it clear it can be used in lots of more problematic ways...

Anyway, that goes for the other methods of forcibly changing alignment, too. If a creature has free will and chose to be evil of their own accord, I think it would be problematic to forcibly change their alignment. But if a creature's alignment wasn't their own choice to begin with, then you're (at worst) basically just reversing things that were already broken in their head.

Although even for creatures with free will in alignment, I can't really rate it that much worse than just killing them -- if your best bet to beat the genocidal evil wizard is to trick him into putting on a helm of opposite alignment, knock yourself out. I wouldn't consider it a good act, certainly, but I fail to see how it's that much worse than tricking him with a Scarab of Death. Heck, if using it as a weapon/trap it bothers you morally, then you can switch his alignment, have him surrender to your custody, then switch his alignment back -- no different than a higher-caliber Charm Person if you're just using it temporarily. Of course, he will scream and plead with you not to put the second helm on his head and make him evil again -- which makes for an interesting moral dilemma.


Also, this seems like a good place to bring up Mindrape vs. Programmed Amnesia again. Both do the same thing (and can be used for deprogramming / reprogramming in the same way), but Mindrape has an [evil] descriptor and Programmed Amnesia doesn't.


Oh, also. The OP wasn't really asking about alignment issues. If your party is evil, there's still plenty of reasons why you might want to force someone to become good (especially if you can then use their newfound conscience to manipulate them.) So, yeah, if you're evil yourself, knock yourself out forcibly converting people at every turn.

[Roderick_BR]

Read "Identity Crisis" from DC Comics to see how forced alignment shift worked out for the heroes...

Yeah, using a spell to brainwash a villain into someone good would be an evil act, even with a good intention. Claiming that you are "helping them to see the light", is a weak excuse.
Some interesting side-effects would be the former villain, now a good person, be tortured by his memories of evil-doing, and even condemn the others heroes about using such a tactic on him, instead of doing it "the morally correct way".
And there's always the chance a former ally of the ex-villain can try to "rescue" him, and he'll be a VERY pissed off villain...

[SurlySeraph]

I assume he means "Sanctify the Wicked" which imprisons the creature's soul in a gem for a year and reprograms them to be good little citizens of pure heart.

No, seriously.

I support this spell, and anyone who does not is guilty of ungood crimethink. Remember, citizens, Big Pelor is watching you!

Wait...what?!

That's it. I don't care WHAT EE says about the BoED - it's off my "canon" list forever for that little bit of logical fallacy. I'm bookmarking this thread so I can pull it up anytime somebody says that the BoED must be right.

That's just...

*throws up hands in the air and goes to bed*

Search within your heart. You know it to be true.

[Fishy]

Well, yes. Forcing someone to wear a Helm of Opposite Alignment is an act of domination and oppression, and is comparable to murder. I'd call it Evil enough to get you kicked down three alignment notches in one go.

Which is why you buy two.

[Theodoxus]

My group is having a similar, well, related argument regarding dominate person. While the spell doesn't have an 'evil' descriptor, it's my thinking that making someone do anything against their will is an evil act. The specifics is when the wizard, of undeterminate alignment, cast dominate person on a lawful evil dwarf and made him his body guard. He's had the dwarf for some time, and has always pinged as evil when detected.

The wizard contends that mind control isn't evil, as I noted, the spell doesn't include the evil descriptor. I contend that mind rape is mind rape, regardless of reason or victim. Sounds like the Helm and that BoED spell are in a similar boat.

The nasty sticking point though, is, why go through these ethical delimnas when it's easier - and often more justified - to simply kill the 'victims.' Hardly anyone argues over whether killing badguys in the middle of combat is bad - unless you use a mercy weapon and knock them out - but that's another discussion.

To me, this whole thing is another case where Wizards views D&D as a video game (all wizards are evokers, druids don't really use their best abilities and pick the best shapes, fighters are Great!, etc.) without ramification for RP.

Only when you get into the heads of the characters do choices really start to matter - where actions have consequences, and people start to care. IMO, Wizards never meant their game to go there, yet, here we are.

The philosophy of the player and the philosophy of the company are quite different. 4th Ed I think was an attempt to get away from that concept, and to move the player back to 'hack and slash' over RP. but I digress...

Theo

[Fishy]

Actually, I think 4th makes a lot more sense, setting wise. Instead of having Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, and Neutral- *none* of which were defined to anybody's satisfaction, we have the Gods and the Primordials. Ancient creatures of elemental power that predate life, and the beings who created civilization and at the same time were created by civilization. It's actually a heck of a lot -closer- to certain kinds of mythology: The Olympians vs. the Titans, the Aesir and the Vanir vs. the Jotun. If that means questions of morality are left up the the individual, well... that's how it works around here, isn't it?

</setting geek>

[Tsotha-lanti]

Well, yes. Forcing someone to wear a Helm of Opposite Alignment is an act of domination and oppression, and is comparable to murder. I'd call it Evil enough to get you kicked down three alignment notches in one go.

Which is why you buy two.

That is freaking foolproof.

Each PC can only do it once, though, I guess.

My group is having a similar, well, related argument regarding dominate person. While the spell doesn't have an 'evil' descriptor, it's my thinking that making someone do anything against their will is an evil act. The specifics is when the wizard, of undeterminate alignment, cast dominate person on a lawful evil dwarf and made him his body guard. He's had the dwarf for some time, and has always pinged as evil when detected.

This varies. Killing someone is an evil act, too, and objectifies a person way more than depriving them of agency does, in my opinion. But killing in self-defense is justifiable. Using a non-lethal method like dominate person to neutralize a combat threat is probably Neutral, and might be more Good than using violence is. It comes down to what you order the target to do, really.

Using charm person and dominate person in social situations to get your way is definitely not Good, and is probably Evil a lot of the time. (I'd compare it to nonlethal torture and to blackmail, but it's more forceful than either.)

But neither permanently rewrites a person, destroying who they were before. They're just magically and really effectively forcing people to do what you want, differing from physical methods mostly by their extent and reliability.

[hamishspence]

Yes, the mindrape spell from Vile darkness does this, only more so- you can rewrite everything- memory, personality, everything. Sanctify doesn't wipe memories.

2nd ed handled Helms of Opposite alignment by saying while chracter was aware of what was done to them, the reversed alignment manifested by being "compelled to commit all manner of destructive deeds."- this was LG to CE. See DMG 2nd ed, page 42, Alignment changes.

It also pointed out that when was looking carefully for ways of getting helm off, and eventually managed to tick an evil wizard into removing it.

This was, however, back in 2nd ed, when helm always worked, but stayed on.

EDIT: I figure- only good justification for sanctify is- when its that or execution. If you're feeling generous toward the spell, figure it simply magnifies Good traits in the person affected, until Good impulses speak much, much louder to them than evil impulses. Which is why it doesn't work on Evil Outsiders.

[Leicontis]

I'm actually about to start playing a character that will want to shove a Helm of Opposite Alignment on the head of an evil outsider - a Nightmare, to be specific. He's a LG Knight that is very like Batman (the superhero, not the wizard) in his aesthetic, theatricality, and tactics. What better mount for such an evil-terrorizing knight than a jet black horse that flies and is ON FIRE?

[hamishspence]

One Blackguard in Faerun rides a pure white Nightmare that has blue Fire. Still evil though.

[Tokiko Mima]

I always liked how Morality Undone worked as opposed to more permanent solutions like Mindrape, Programmed Amnesia and Helm of Opposite Alignment. A spell that turns Champion of Good into black hearted jerks for a couple hours as opposed to forever was always more fun to deal with. Plus, it doesn't feel much more 'evil' to me than Charm Person usually does.

[hamishspence]

Owl's Wisdom seemed to work on Belkar like Morality Redone Turns into total good guy. Until spell dismisssed.

[kamikasei]

I find it an interesting, if probably unintended, commentary on morality that you have a spell which can turn people evil for a few hours but turning them good requires restructuring their souls permanently. So we all have dark impulses that can be brought to the fore and given power to overwhelm us, but apparently not corresponding tendencies towards good?

[hamishspence]

Sanctify The Wicked requires a "spark of good" somewhere down there, to work. Hence, not Evil Outsiders.

So, anything but a fiend has at least a little trace of Good.

EDIT: Morality Undone works on "any non-evil living creature". This would include celestials.

Easy way to describe in this case (or maybe, all cases) a big chunk of Evil is summoned up from the lower planes and dropped in targets brain. Overwhelms normal thinking processes.

[Adumbration]

A moral dilemma: you have captured a small orcish war scout party, tied them up and discovered that there's an enormous army of orcs coming their way. The orcs have spent the last few days scouting your city's defences, and were on their way to report the crucial weaknesses. If you leave them tied up and go warn the city, the scouts will certainly be found by the army, directly causing the deaths of innocent people. The other choice is to coup them all to the other world and burn their bodies. They are all of evil alignment (detect evil), and thus wouldn't be an evil action.

The third choice is the Helm of Opposite Alignment in your backpack. What do you do?

[Dragonus45]

I find it an interesting, if probably unintended, commentary on morality that you have a spell which can turn people evil for a few hours but turning them good requires restructuring their souls permanently. So we all have dark impulses that can be brought to the fore and given power to overwhelm us, but apparently not corresponding tendencies towards good?

Well look at the world, mankind has always had trouble fighting off the darker urges. Thats mostly because they're the most gratifying but sometimes it just fun to do them. Well good usually gets you little in the way of material thing. Evil is just easier, but not overpowering.

[kamikasei]

The other choice is to coup them all to the other world and burn their bodies. They are all of evil alignment (detect evil), and thus wouldn't be an evil action.

The third choice is the Helm of Opposite Alignment in your backpack. What do you do?

Kill them. They're dead either way, but you should have the guts to admit it to yourself.

[Glyde]

It's a bit of a switch, though. By the end of that, the PCs are probably evil-aligned, since brainwashing and magical compulsion are pretty evil. It's evil for a good end, but still an evil action. (Then again, I guess the BoED would tell you it's A-OK, since at least one of the Exalted spells does essentially the same. Uh, let's not start another 20-page thread about that one, though, okay?)

Sanctify the Wicked works in that it gives the victim time to reflect on what they've done, and they convert naturally. I *think* there might be a save for it, but I'm not sure (I haven't checked that book in a while.)

[hamishspence]

in Robinson Crusoe, the heroes checked to see if any wanted to switch sides, took some of those who did, and made saw that those who did, co-operated by warning them that if they proved false, this would be signalled and their friends would be killed.

Not sure if it was a bluff.

EDIT:
StW grants will save, and spell resistance, and PC sacrifices 1 level, and, annoyingly, doesn't specify Not Evil Outsiders in description (does in template) Creature's alignment, at least, is same as yours- LG caster turns CE red dragon into LG Sanctified Red Dragon.

[Khanderas]

It's a bit of a switch, though. By the end of that, the PCs are probably evil-aligned, since brainwashing and magical compulsion are pretty evil. It's evil for a good end, but still an evil action. (Then again, I guess the BoED would tell you it's A-OK, since at least one of the Exalted spells does essentially the same. Uh, let's not start another 20-page thread about that one, though, okay?)

No problem. just put the helmet on youself when you are done.

[LibraryOgre]

In a world of objective good and evil (such as the base assumption of 3.x), I don't think it's evil to force someone to become really and truly good. Not just "I'm good because I don't want the consequences of evil" but "I'm good because I really and truly believe in good."

We see it as unethical because good doesn't really have an objective definition in our world. But in D&D, it is an objective thing... you can even travel to places that ARE good... not just "This place is pretty nice" but "This place is a physical manifestation of Good. All inhabitants are nothing but Good. Evil is explicitly an invader."

[Fishy]

re: Orc Scouting Party: If it's an army, and you're in a war, they kind of let you kill the other guys.

But yeah, in a world of Objective Good, and in a medieval setting where the right-to-freedom hasn't been invented yet, you also have allowances.