Level adjustment and CR

[TakeV]

How does level adjustment corrospond with challange rating? I'd like to say that each +1 of LA means a +1 of CR, but then I saw that some monsters and templates have different values for each. For instance, the ghost template increases the CR by 2, but it has a +5 level adjustment.
Rather annoying when trying to balance encounters. :P

[jcsw]

LA has nothing to do with setting a proper challenge for your players.

LA is for players who want to play monsters.

If you want to apply a template to a monster in an encounter, add the CR modifier to the CR of the base monster, the LA on templates is for players who want to gain templates.

[TakeV]

Ah. But does it change the CR if I want to give the monster class levels?

[TakeV]

Ah. But does it change the CR if I want to give the monster class levels?

[Shishnarfne]

Ah. But does it change the CR if I want to give the monster class levels?

CR advances as you give a monster class levels (the level adjustment of the monster does not apply to this calculation). CR is increased by 1 for every "associated" class level and by 1/2 for every "non-associated" class level (once non-associated class levels equal other hit dice, they are treated as associated from that point forward).

Associated is really a judgement call based on whether the class levels help the monster do what "it appears to be designed to do," so, for instance, Fighter/Barbarian levels are associated for trolls (they boost melee combat), while they are not associated for mind flayers. (At least in my games...)

Edit: These are the rules, IIRC for PC classes. NPC classes boost CR by one less.

[Laurellien]

HD and LA are used when determining a monster's effective character level. This is for players who wish to play them. e.g. a monster listed with four hitdice and an LA of +2 would be equivalent to a 6th level character.

For determining EL, just use the CR of the monsters/traps involved.

As far as adding class levels goes, the Monster's CR increases by 1 for every class level that you add, and then decreases by 1 if the monster has any levels in any NPC class (Aristocrat, Commoner, Warrior, Expert, Adept etc...)

[Tsotha-lanti]

How does level adjustment corrospond with challange rating?

It doesn't, in any way, shape, or form. Abilities have totally different "value" for PCs and for NPCs/monsters.

It is never ever used for anything except PCs. (Unless you count it toward an NPC's WBL, in which case you add it to HD. I forget if that's how WotC does it.)

Giving a monster class levels is a different thing entirely. See here, for instance.

[monty]

As far as I know, all templates list their CR adjustment (keep in mind this isn't always accurate, though). This has little to do with the LA, if it has one. CR adjustment is how much better it is for a NPC, while LA is how much better it is for a player. LA is nearly always higher, the idea being that an NPC will usually be encountered once, while a PC can use the template's abilities all the time every day.

[JaxGaret]

Here's a good archived article on this subject.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Ghosts are actually a good example. A ghost is a so-so enemy; mostly it's just hard to hit (50% miss chance due to being incorporeal), and has a couple of spiffy special attacks. But as a PC? LA +5 doesn't even begin to cover how incredibly broken they are. Ethereal, incorporeal, perfect maneuverability flight, etc.?

(Well, actually, LA +5 is so crippling no one would or should ever play a ghost, but a ghost PC would still be overpowered in certain specific ways.)

Vampires are a similar, and an even more extreme case.

Good monsters/NPCs are often broken PCs.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Edit: These are the rules, IIRC for PC classes. NPC classes boost CR by one less.

No. NPC classes are simply always non-associated.

As far as adding class levels goes, the Monster's CR increases by 1 for every class level that you add, and then decreases by 1 if the monster has any levels in any NPC class (Aristocrat, Commoner, Warrior, Expert, Adept etc...)

Only correct if the race has no racial hit dice. Otherwise, the Associated/Non-associated class level rules apply.

[Tsotha-lanti]

No. NPC classes are simply always non-associated.

It's actually two ways. You're right when it comes to adding class levels to monsters/creatures: NPC classes are nonassociated. (Although it's slightly unclear to me if they continue to be nonassociated once the NPC class levels exceed racial HD.) If a creature only has HD from class levels, and has 1 or more NPC class levels, it's CR is equal to level -1.

So yeah, Laurellien and Shishnarfne are incorrect about adding levels to creatures, but would have been correct if they'd been talking about creating NPCs (with no racial HD).

Edit: Although personally I have houseruled that NPCs with only NPC classes have a CR of level/2, on occasion. It is not unproblematic, but it works out nicely enough. An 18th-level warrior is way closer to CR 9 than CR 17.

[bosssmiley]

It's actually two ways. You're right when it comes to adding class levels to monsters/creatures: NPC classes are nonassociated. (Although it's slightly unclear to me if they continue to be nonassociated once the NPC class levels exceed racial HD.)

That one's easy. When class levels (be they associated or not) exceed racial HD they become the creature's primary source of power. You just work out the CR backwards; class levels first, then + racial HD (or +1/2 if non-associated).

Critical Ankle Bites had an obvious-in-hindsight aside about this in one of their articles:

A level 14 wizard is a CR 14 creature.
A stone giant is a CR 8 creature.
A stone giant with 14 levels of Wizard is a CR 15 creature.
…yeah, no.

Look, I know the whole “class levels that don’t play to a monster’s strengths add 1/2 CR” rule. But when you have 14 levels of wizard, Wizard is now your strength! “Stone Giant” is now the non-associated part! Reverse the math.

14 + (8/2) = 18. So make him a level 11 Wizard, and 11 + (8/2) = 15. Or something.

Good call on the NPC classes = 1/2 CR btw Tsotha-lanti.

[Oslecamo]

That one's easy. When class levels (be they associated or not) exceed racial HD they become the creature's primary source of power. You just work out the CR backwards; class levels first, then + racial HD (or +1/2 if non-associated).

Critical Ankle Bites had an obvious-in-hindsight aside about this in one of their articles:

Yeah, that stone giant/wizard 14 with 10 int will really scare the crap out of my players.

Or not. It's kinda hard casting 7 levels spells with 10 int.

And even if you gear him up with equipment to try to bypass that, he's still gona be weaker than the human wizard who started with a 16 at int and will be casting spells with good DCs.

You could give him an elite array and put the 15 in int, but it'll still be lower than the human wizard, and then the class stops being a nonassociated, because you're giving caster levels to someone with the right mental stat and has hands and voice to cast. This is, why would he develop his int if he didn't want to become a caster?

[Tsotha-lanti]

Good call on the NPC classes = 1/2 CR btw Tsotha-lanti.

Thanks!

The biggest pitfall (pratfall?) is wealth. I don't think NPC classes should get anything near the NPC wealth anyway, but you'll get some absolutely broken crap if you field a CR 10 human warrior 20 with 20th-level NPC wealth.

This is solved (more or less) by giving the NPC a level 10 treasure converted into gear, or just gear worth the average level 10 treasure value.

Edit:

You could give him an elite array and put the 15 in int, but it'll still be lower than the human wizard, and then the class stops being a nonassociated, because you're giving caster levels to someone with the right mental stat and has hands and voice to cast. This is, why would he develop his int if he didn't want to become a caster?

How it is going to be lower than the human wizard? The now CR 16 (+1 from elite array) giant has Int 18 (15 + 3 from the wizard HD), compared to the expected/average Int of ... wow, 19 for a 16th-level PC wizard (15 + 4 from HD).

The specific example is irrelevant to the point anyway. Is a cloud giant cleric a better example?

You are right, though, that whether a class is associated or not is really arbitrary. (Although the aforementioned stone giant certainly isn't CR 22, either.)

Edit again:
Actually, it's CR 15. PC class levels come free with an elite array.

[jcsw]

You forget that nearly all monster entries use the "crappy NPC" base stats, ie they all have 10s and 11s before racial adjustment. This "commoner" stat array is indicative of the average populace, something that any member of the race can be.

Notice how adventurers have obviously better stats, this is because they are not meant to be average.
An NPC Wizard is one who has been selected out of the highest potential of the populace, within the 90th percentile in terms of intelligence, to study magic.
They too, are certainly not average, and should be able to roll stats. (Or point buy)

Thus a giant wizard certainly doesn't have 10 intelligence, in fact, it could easily have 18.

[SoD]

Thus a giant wizard certainly doesn't have 10 intelligence, in fact, it could easily have 18.

Hardley easily, but I conced to your point.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Hardley easily, but I conced to your point.

No, really, easily. Stone giant with +0 Int modifier, 15 from elite array (free with PC class levels), +3 from HD. That's 18.

[Oslecamo]

No, really, easily. Stone giant with +0 Int modifier, 15 from elite array (free with PC class levels), +3 from HD. That's 18.

And the sun elf wizard has 22, making him actually a much more fearsome caster.

Besides, if you're giving wizard levels to a guy with 15 int, hands and who can talk, how exactly isn't it an associated class? It isn't the best combination in the world, but it works quite well. Stone giants aren't stupid. They're good at smashing stuff, but they're also decent at other stuff like magic, so wizard wouldn't be a nonassociated class.

Now dire bear/wizard, for example, won't really scare anyone, since it will have trouble casting the simplest of cantrips, since he has no hands, can't talk and has starting int 2.

[monty]

Now dire bear/wizard, for example, won't really scare anyone, since it will have trouble casting the simplest of cantrips, since he has no hands, can't talk and has starting int 2.

Unless you awaken it, in which case you have a 1/216 chance of getting 18 Int (and much better odds of getting a lower but still respectable number).

[Tsotha-lanti]

Besides, if you're giving wizard levels to a guy with 15 int, hands and who can talk, how exactly isn't it an associated class? It isn't the best combination in the world, but it works quite well. Stone giants aren't stupid. They're good at smashing stuff, but they're also decent at other stuff like magic, so wizard wouldn't be a nonassociated class.

According to the guidelines in the MM/SRD, it would be, since it doesn't play into the existing role/strengths of the creature (i.e. hitting things). Casting classes are only considered associated from the start if the creature already has casting ability in that class, in which case the levels stack with it. (So sorcerer levels are associated for dragons, but wizard levels are not. The best way to make broken dragons is wizard levels.)

[its_all_ogre]

And the sun elf wizard has 22, making him actually a much more fearsome caster..

mechanically maybe.

however i would be unimpressed by someone roleplaying being more scared than any elf wizard compared with a stone giant wizard.

especially if they both cast the same spell to the same effect.

massive pluses to natural ac, Str and Con do help a wizard you know.
a stone giant with 14 levels of wizard IS harder than an elf 14 wizard.

[only1doug]

mechanically maybe.

however i would be unimpressed by someone roleplaying being more scared than any elf wizard compared with a stone giant wizard.

especially if they both cast the same spell to the same effect.

massive pluses to natural ac, Str and Con do help a wizard you know.
a stone giant with 14 levels of wizard IS harder than an elf 14 wizard.

you may have overlooked the extra 119 HPs the stone Giant would also have on top of 14 levels of wizard with a +4 con bonus.

a stone giant with caster L14 could ruin your day with just two L3 spells; greater magic weapon and greater mighty Wallop. now it and its allies thrown rocks or club are 3 size categories bigger and have +3 to hit and damage (6d8+15 before strength increase for elite array).

[Doug Lampert]

According to the guidelines in the MM/SRD, it would be, since it doesn't play into the existing role/strengths of the creature (i.e. hitting things). Casting classes are only considered associated from the start if the creature already has casting ability in that class, in which case the levels stack with it. (So sorcerer levels are associated for dragons, but wizard levels are not. The best way to make broken dragons is wizard levels.)

The RAW for adding class levels are OBVIOUSLY horribly, horribly broken.

Take a monster, say it's CR10. Add elite abilities and NOTHING else, +1 CR. This isn't unreasonable, it's best attacks went up by +2 or so, it's HP by +1/HD or so, it's AC by 1 or so, several saves are up, it may well have better skills. It's likely a bit weak, but better feat choices can fix that and ballance it nicely.

Now take that monster: add 2 Cleric levels (+3 to two saves, +9+2xCon Mod additional HP, +1 BAB, two domain special powers, the ability to use magic sticks of CLW, and gear appropriate to a CR11 NPC, about 2/3rds of the time it gets a feat and about 1/2 the time an ability increase which can give an additional +1 to its important ability).

There is no additional increase in CR. NONE. Everything in the paragraph above combined isn't worth even +1 more to CR than what you already had for the elite abilities because elite abilities are "free" for monsters with PC class levels! It's +1 CR either way.

Appearently 2 cleric levels and level 11 NPC gear are so low value they don't need to be represented in the CR! (Note that a Wisdom score of 10+ is strictly optional for this "build", I'm not actually planning to cast level 0 or 1 spells as a significant part of the power of this creature's attacks although some of the cleric buffs are nice.)

Two more levels of Cleric adds 1 more to EVERY save, 2 to BAB, 9+2xCon Mod more HP, and another 2/3rds of a feat and 1/2 an ability point. Oh, yeah, and as an unimportant incidental your spellcasting improves and now includes all those level 2 cleric self buffs. That also is only +1 to CR.

Find a published monster with more HD than 2xCR (there are some, although I don't think any in core can reasonably take class levels, fortunately there's plenty of non-core out there), add non-associtated class levels (cleric is still best) equal to HD, congradulations, the creature's CLASS LEVEL exceeds it's CR, as if all the stuff it already had as a monster were a negative value. It's BAB is pretty well guaranteed to equal or exceed CR (even if it's a Fey with Wizard levels).

In my experience, LA+HD is a fine way to measure the combat value of a vaguely competent build monster with PC class levels and gear. The fact is that CONTRARY to WotC's explanation about how some abilities are worth more to a PC than an NPC the vast majority of stuff is useful based on how it works in combat, and for a PC or a competent NPC that's about even.

If a monster has regeneration, hard to bypass DR, incorporial, fast healing, or takes a very suboptimal build and class for that race then you may end up 1 or two points high in the CR if you use LA+HD (fast healing and DR type abilities really are worth more to a PC), but even in those cases you'll be FAR closer than the broken system in the MM will put you.

What makes for high LA is that most monsters are built to be an appropriate challenge with little or no gear, and PCs get gear which STACKS with the high numbers most monsters have for abilities and natural armor so they have appropriate attacks and AC for their CR without enhancement bonuses on their attacks, stat boosters from gear and spells, and without applying most of the six or so ways PCs typically improve their AC.

NPCs with gear appropriate to an NPC of the same level as their ECL as a PC are normally pretty close to being worth that ECL as their CR.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

No, really, easily. Stone giant with +0 Int modifier, 15 from elite array (free with PC class levels), +3 from HD. That's 18.

There is no gain from HD (unless of course you are talking about a Stone Giant with 10 class levels).

[Oslecamo]

mechanically maybe.

however i would be unimpressed by someone roleplaying being more scared than any elf wizard compared with a stone giant wizard.

especially if they both cast the same spell to the same effect.

massive pluses to natural ac, Str and Con do help a wizard you know.
a stone giant with 14 levels of wizard IS harder than an elf 14 wizard.

The sun elf wizard just polymorphed into a stone giant. Here, str, con and AC bonus. And he's still 1 CR lower.

Also, I don't know why everybody is complaining of the big pitcure:

Problem 1-People say it's easy to make broken characters who'll easily kill monsters of the same CR.
Problem 2-People complain that it's easy to make broken monsters who are stronger than regular characters of the same CR.

Solution:throw the optimized monsters to the optimized characters and let the blood feast begin! Hell, I would like to see the battle between the optimized stone giant wizard and a lv14 party.

It all balances in the end. Why is everyone complaining so much?

Also, mr. roboto:
1-Pick a construct
2-Give it the incarnate construct template, wich reduces it's CR by half and makes it a living creature.
3-Give it the half-golem template, wich gives +3CR and turns him again into a construct.
4-Repeat 2 and 3 untill you have something really sick, but of relatively low CR.
5-?
6-Profit.

[Tsotha-lanti]

There is no gain from HD (unless of course you are talking about a Stone Giant with 10 class levels).

Er, yes. It's the 14th-level stone giant wizard we were discussing. 4th, 8th, and 12th.

The RAW for adding class levels are OBVIOUSLY horribly, horribly broken.

Yeah, that was kinda the point of the thread.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Er, yes. It's the 14th-level stone giant wizard we were discussing. 4th, 8th, and 12th.

Well in that case you may add an additional ability increase for reaching 28 HD (2 wiz, 6 wiz, 10 wiz and 14 wiz).

[Talic]

CR 19:

White Dragon, Adult (Large) - CR 10
17 Levels Rogue - +8.5 CR
1 Level Ninja - +0.5 CR

Now, at CR 19, I have a Large creature with 36 HD.

Assume it has the Darkstalker Feat.
Assume also, that the Rogue levels are Wilderness rogue.
It took Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight.

It has 39 Ranks in Hide and Move Silently... and a -4 penalty for size. Assume Epic Skill focus in both, for +10. Let's add in Lingering Damage, and we have a hide of +45, Move silent +49. Let's further say he has barding, greater shadow. +60 hide, +49 move silent.

So now, it can snipe every round with a +40 to hide, and remain undetectable, mostly.

So, now that we have Hidden Dragon, where's Crouching Tiger?

[hamishspence]

what level is Sun elf wizard- isn't max for 1st levl 18, +2 Int, for 20?