Psychic strike and sneak attack

[Glyde]

It's not really clear on the SRD, but does a soulknife's psychic strike stack with a rogue's sneak attack? My next character was going to be a straight rogue/assassin, but this class looks interesting. Would a rogue/soulknife be viable?

[shadow_archmagi]

If I recall my knowledge of the soulknife correctly: No, because soulknife is an even worse class than samurai.

[Glyde]

Mind explaining why? I'm not psychic (HURR HURR) so I can't really balance classes in my head on a whim once first seeing them.

[Greg]

If I recall my knowledge of the soulknife correctly: No, because soulknife is an even worse class than samurai.

They do stack. There is no class worse than samurai.

The build is a viable one - particularly for a city/intrigue campaign.

[Vortling]

Mind explaining why? I'm not psychic (HURR HURR) so I can't really balance classes in my head on a whim once first seeing them.

Because nearly all of the Soulknife's class abilities can be duplicated by an appropriate level magic weapon. Yes, you'll never be without your weapon but unless your DM puts you in the "captured in prison without weapons" scenario a lot or gives you no WBL at all it's not worth it. If you're worried about being weaponless at some point you can probably spare the feat for improved unarmed strike.

Rogue is a solid class with lots of useful abilities. and you'll be much better off going straight rogue or rogue/PrC x.

[Zeful]

I'm pretty sure Sneak Attack/Psychic Strike stack as long as both abilities would activate at the same time (Ie, have surprise/flanking and your psionic focus (I don't remember how psychic strike works sadly)).

[Tsotha-lanti]

They don't stack, as such - however, they don't need to. They're entirely different effects and abilities, and if both apply, then both deal damage. If you have imbued your weapon with psychic strike and use it to deliver a sneak attack, you deal the extra damage for both.

There's no text addressing "stacking" or the like because it's not an issue. It's damage from different sources. If there were a bit saying, specifically, "you cannot deal psychic strike damage and sneak attack damage on the same attack", then... well, then you should probably ignore it.

shadow_archmagi's answer was flippant (and a bit useless). It is true, however, that soulknives are pretty suboptimal, but you can probably survive playing one, unless you're running with DMM clerics and non-evocation wizards.

[Glyde]

Things I know about the campaign is that it's evil. (Hence why assassin was the original plan). Being imprisoned isn't farfetched.


Also, the players are going to be far from optimized. (The wizard will most likely be flinging fireballs here and there, the cleric doesn't know much outside of core), which is the main reason I was thinking about diverting from my earlier plan.

[Greg]

Because nearly all of the Soulknife's class abilities can be duplicated by an appropriate level magic weapon. Yes, you'll never be without your weapon but unless your DM puts you in the "captured in prison without weapons" scenario a lot or gives you no WBL at all it's not worth it. If you're worried about being weaponless at some point you can probably spare the feat for improved unarmed strike.

It's quite handy for infiltration-type missions.

To be honest, if you're playing a rogue in a party with batman and CoDzilla, you're pretty much a walking set of lockpicks.

[Person_Man]

Bonus damage always stacks, unless it specifically says otherwise. So yes, it works. However, as everyone has already said, it sucks.

Consider a Psychic Warrior or Psychic Rogue/Psychic Assassin instead. That will give you Skills, Death Attack, Mind Cripple, some Sneak Attack, and some psionic powers.

Alternatively, you could use my homebrew Jedi/Soulknife.

[Draz74]

If you do go Soulknife -- which is perfectly viable in an underpowered campaign, especially if there are capture situations or a lack of magical equipment -- don't multiclass. Soulknife isn't a class that multiclasses well.

One level of Rogue to start off wouldn't hurt, but beyond that my advice stands.

Or you could go into Soulbow. It's a PrC from Complete Psionic that, according to general consensus, brings the Soulknife up to a nice, medium power level.

[Glyde]

I'm going to go with full on Rogue/Assassin for this campaign, and save the soulknife for another time (With the possibility of my own homebrew to balance it a bit more.)


The thing is, I know next to nothing about psionics. I'll have to research it more later.

[Draz74]

The thing is, I know next to nothing about psionics. I'll have to research it more later.

That's ok, Soulknives know next to nothing about psionics too.

[Glyde]

Exactly. I saw there was nothing on spells (Or powers, or whatever) and immediately decided to check it out, since it was a class I've never seen before or bothered researching.

[Person_Man]

I'm going to go with full on Rogue/Assassin for this campaign,

1) Mine the splat books for Assassin spells. There are some real gems out there.

2) You can apply Ability Focus to Death Attack. There's also a few Assassin specific magic items out there that improve it. Fear effects and any other debuffs work as well. For example, you could buy a Spell Storing weapon, and put any debuff spell in it. The attack and damage and status effects would take place before the Death Attack Save.

3) Assassin is unplayable past ECL 16. Your spells and Death Attack stop progressing. By the time you reach ECL 20, you're worthless.

[Fax Celestis]

3) Assassin is unplayable past ECL 16. Your spells and Death Attack stop progressing. By the time you reach ECL 20, you're worthless.

You can use the same tricks that some people use to twink out Hellfire Warlock to make Assassin more palatable--that is, messing with Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster's "+1 level of existing class features" abilities to continue progressing your Sneak Attack, your Assassin CL, and your Death Attack DC.

Alternatively, you can find another PrC that has Death Attack as a class feature (I know I've seen at least two, though they may be FR-centric) and take that, which will progress your Death Attack further as well. As for spells...well, "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" will continue to provide CL even if you're going off the end of the class' casting table, at the same rate it was before.

EDIT: Black Flame Zealot and Dark Hunter both get Death Attack. Black Flame Zealot gets divine halfcasting, but you may be able to convince your DM to let it apply to arcane spells--wouldn't be broken.

EDIT 2: List from another source:
- Imaskari Vengeance Taker (Underdark)
- Dark Hunter (Complete Warrior)
- Shattered Peak Cultist (Lost Empires of Faerun)
- Justice of Weald and Woe (Champions of Ruin, bow only)
- Teflammar Shadowlord (Unapproachable East)
- Monk of the Long Death (Player's Guide to Faerun)
- Avenger (web article)
- Black Dog (Dragonmarked)

[its_all_ogre]

in a gestalt game i had a pc running with a rogue//soulknife and at level 3 they were the hardest thing going...
until they met undead where suddenly the halfling was using a dagger to do d3 damage per hit piercing...against zombies/skeletons who have DR5

problem is also once you have iterative attacks you won't be able to utilise psychic strike as often.

assassin after level 16 surely goes into ninja, scout or even arcane trickster (get an item of mage hand, it'll be cheap)
ninja allows you to turn invisible which is always handy, plus adds damage
scout adds speed at level 3, adds initiative and fort saves plus skirmish
arcane trickster increases SA and spell casting

[Glyde]

Can I not continue to take rogue levels after I take assassin levels? My plan was going to be rogue10/assassin10, unless something is terribly bad about that.

Of course, the campaign probably wouldn't even last till after 12th level if that. I'm just curious.

[shadow_archmagi]

shadow_archmagi's answer was flippant (and a bit useless). It is true, however, that soulknives are pretty suboptimal, but you can probably survive playing one, unless you're running with DMM clerics and non-evocation wizards.

My apologies

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Can I not continue to take rogue levels after I take assassin levels? My plan was going to be rogue10/assassin10, unless something is terribly bad about that.

Of course, the campaign probably wouldn't even last till after 12th level if that. I'm just curious.

1) Assassin is only a 5 level PrC, to my knowledge

2) The problem is the DC for Death Attack becomes so trivial at later levels that you'll never find something able to be DA'd.

My suggestion is one of two:

1) Go Beguiler (from the PhB II). It's got all the skillmonkey of the Rogue with all the illusion and enchantment spells at your fingertips. Slide into Spymaster if you really feel like it, otherwise just go straight Beguiler.

2) Rogue/Nightsong Enforcer (or infiltrator if you prefer). Nightsong Enforcer and Nightsong Infiltrator are both very good group PrC's. They benefit the party as a whole without sucking up too much of your ability to do your thang. Enforcer is more martial oriented, probably want to go down a TWF route with Enforcer. Infiltrator means being damn good at making the party even better.

[Vortling]

Can I not continue to take rogue levels after I take assassin levels? My plan was going to be rogue10/assassin10, unless something is terribly bad about that.

Of course, the campaign probably wouldn't even last till after 12th level if that. I'm just curious.

You can continue to take rogue levels after assassin levels. You won't get as many of the cool rogue stuff if you take that many assassin levels but that's up to you. Seconded on mining the source books for assassin spells.

[Fax Celestis]

1) Assassin is only a 5 level PrC, to my knowledge

Nope, 10 levels.

[Glyde]

Yeah, I have a whole whack of different books for assassin spells, no worries there.

Also, of the classes that were listed to also use Death Attack, I found that none of them really catered to the character (At least from the books that I have.) The levels would just be better spent on rogue. I do plan on maxing Assassin to 10 to max out the DC as much as possible, and focus on int and dex at character creation.

[mabriss lethe]

On soulknife. I have to disagree with Draz74 about soulknives and multiclassing. Well, only if this feat is allowed.


From Realms help:

Practiced Mind Blade
Type: Psionic
Source: Dragon #341

Your mind blade is more powerful.

Prerequisite: Concentration 4 ranks, ability to form a mind blade.
Benefit: You are treated as having 4 more levels of soulknife for the purpose of manifinting your mind blade (increasing its enhancement bonus and its special abilities). This benefit cannot grant you an effective soulknife level greater than your Hit Dice. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain Hit Dice from levels that do not improve your mind blade, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus.
For example, a human 6th-level soulknife/3rd-level ranger would have an effective soulknife level of 9th (because he has 9 Hit Dice), thus allowing him to manifest a +2 mind blade with a +1 special ability equivalent. If he later increased his ranger level to 4th (increasing his total Hit Dice to 10) he could take frill advantage of this feat, manifesting his mind blade as a 10th-level soulknife and increasing his mind blade's special abilities to a +2 special ability equivalent.
This feat affects only the mind blade's enhancement bonus and special abilities. It does not grant any other soulknife abilities such as improved psychic strike, throw mind blade, or the like.

[Fishy]

Hmm. Three levels of Rogue or Feat Rogue, two of Soulknife, and fill the rest with Soulbow? 4 skill points per level is kind of terrible, but if you took the Able Learner feat, you could keep up the scouting/trapmonkey routine, and maybe one social skill, while at the same time having the power to kill a goat at 30' with mind bullets. (That's telekinesis, baby!)

But that's an entirely different character.

[Burley]

Question: Why not take Spellthief instead of Rogue? I can't remember completely, but their sneak attack is comparable, if not identicle, no? Plus, you get other spell casting...eventually. It'd open up more prestige classes, as well.

[Fax Celestis]

Question: Why not take Spellthief instead of Rogue? I can't remember completely, but their sneak attack is comparable, if not identicle, no? Plus, you get other spell casting...eventually. It'd open up more prestige classes, as well.

Spellthief is SA every 3 levels instead of every 2, but they get the Steal Spell ability--and taking Master Spellthief lets you stack Steal Spell on Assassin levels. Psithief lets you steal psionics instead of magic, too.

[Burley]

Spellthief is SA every 3 levels instead of every 2, but they get the Steal Spell ability--and taking Master Spellthief lets you stack Steal Spell on Assassin levels. Psithief lets you steal psionics instead of magic, too.

I gotta say it, Fax: This week has been "Burley Gets Validation From Fax Week." And, I'm loving it.

Edit: In the Complete Scoundrel, they had all sorts of feats that allow Rogue/Ranger/Scout levels to stack for certain things. Would the Spellthief be applicable for any of those feats? They have Sneak Attack reqs, but not Rogue requirements. (They do however say that your "Rogue level" stacks... I think...) Hm...

Also, would a feat allowing you to sacrifice SA dice AND Psychic Strike dice for more ability damage with Knife to the Soul be over/underpowered? Would it be over/underpowered to DM fiat this?

[Fax Celestis]

I gotta say it, Fax: This week has been "Burley Gets Validation From Fax Week." And, I'm loving it.

[Must research something: Will Edit This Line.]

Burley Celestis? Fax Warlockius?

[Burley]

Burley Celestis? Fax Warlockius?

I wasn't researching Gene Splicing. Just looking at the SRD...