Star Wars Dark Side/Light Side Source Books

[Kazasu]

I was wondering what everyone thought about the Dark side and Light side source books. Primarily whether they will still work well with Saga edition. This also brings about the question of whether source books before saga edition are still relevant. Sorry for the lack of direction, but I appreciate any help.

[Jack Zander]

I have no experience with prior systems, though I can say this no duh statement. Most all of the fluff (barring the fluff that is tied to any actual mechanics) can be kept with no problem. Any mechanics (stated NPCs and even homebrewed traps, items, or abilities) need to be converted.

This is true for any cross edition compatibility.

[Kizara]

I think that sourcebooks before SAGA are very relivant in that they show you what a real system would actually look like.

Unless you like the EasyMode version/4E, in which case they would likely be too overwhelming for you and you should stay away from them.

Warning, some elements require obvious houserules in order to retain balance (like placing a range on Force Grip).

[TheThan]

Yeah, the older edition books are always useful on some level. What you get out of it depends on a lot of factors. But I find all my old star wars books to be useful.

[Xero Kunai]

I think that sourcebooks before SAGA are very relivant in that they show you what a real system would actually look like.

Unless you like the EasyMode version/4E, in which case they would likely be too overwhelming for you and you should stay away from them.

Warning, some elements require obvious houserules in order to retain balance (like placing a range on Force Grip).

I love you.

I don't see why everyone gets a hard on for saga edition. I looked at the rules and I could swear it was made for ten year olds.
It's like the Hunter of systems.

[Ascension]

Wow, tough crowd... I won't comment in full, though, since it looks like this is teetering close enough to the brink of thread derail without me pushing it over.

[turkishproverb]

I love you.

I don't see why everyone gets a hard on for saga edition. I looked at the rules and I could swear it was made for ten year olds.
It's like the Hunter of systems.

Well, at least it works better as Saga than as 4.0.

[The_Snark]

Not to contribute too much to thread derailment, but I primarily liked Saga for condensing the useless classes (fringer and tech specialist were quite bad), and getting rid of the cumbersome morass that was the old Force skill/feat system. It also used the Talent/bonus feat system out of d20 Modern, and I've always been fond of that system; Star Wars ought to feel a little more like Modern than D&D, I feel.

Also, while I very much like the idea of having "magic" that drains vitality, I'm baffled by why using the Force was supposed to drain your endurance.

Anyway... In terms of game statistics, the Dark Side/Power of the Jedi sourcebooks give you ideas for Saga Force powers, and the tiers are still usually pretty applicable. You'd have to recalculate a lot of the NPC stats, of course, but the monsters require surprisingly little adaptation. The flavor, of course, is still useable.

As it happens, I never liked those two sourcebooks that much, but that was more due to disliking a lot of the source material they were using for it (mainly comics, I believe) than it was for the actual quality of the books.

[Kizara]

Not to contribute too much to thread derailment, but I primarily liked Saga for condensing the useless classes (fringer and tech specialist were quite bad), and getting rid of the cumbersome morass that was the old Force skill/feat system. It also used the Talent/bonus feat system out of d20 Modern, and I've always been fond of that system; Star Wars ought to feel a little more like Modern than D&D, I feel.

Also, while I very much like the idea of having "magic" that drains vitality, I'm baffled by why using the Force was supposed to drain your endurance.

Anyway... In terms of game statistics, the Dark Side/Power of the Jedi sourcebooks give you ideas for Saga Force powers, and the tiers are still usually pretty applicable. You'd have to recalculate a lot of the NPC stats, of course, but the monsters require surprisingly little adaptation. The flavor, of course, is still useable.

As it happens, I never liked those two sourcebooks that much, but that was more due to disliking a lot of the source material they were using for it (mainly comics, I believe) than it was for the actual quality of the books.

I think the way they did the Force using feats and skills instead of a seperate spellcasting system, as well as how they take vitality points is one of the most elegant, well-implamented and inspired solutions to balance I've ever seen.

Jedi can still be awesome, they own with their lightsabers and have some really good abilities. However, they are incredibly MAD, have very little skill points left over after they pay for their force skills and are thus rather limited in what they can do outside of mind tricks and melee combat. Really, although some things here and there need to be tweaked, the system itself is AWESOME, and I will even say better-written and balanced then regular 3.5.

Things like how armor/weapon proficency matters alot more and is harder to get alot of. How in a game focused a bit more on social interaction, problem solving and detective work and a bit less on fighting bad guys, the classes are well-balanced to allow various roles to shine and feel useful without taking away from the others.

I will however admit that they two tech-classes, while appropriate for the setting and a stable trope of the genre, are poorly-designed and implimented, and serve as more NPC classes then anything.

[Jack Zander]

Classes in Saga are more for taking a few level dips in anyway. I've found my most effective characters to start out as a noble, scoundrel, or scout, and then go soldier or Jedi the rest of the way for the attack bonuses and better talents.

[Mando Knight]

Not to contribute too much to thread derailment, but I primarily liked Saga for condensing the useless classes (fringer and tech specialist were quite bad), and getting rid of the cumbersome morass that was the old Force skill/feat system. It also used the Talent/bonus feat system out of d20 Modern, and I've always been fond of that system; Star Wars ought to feel a little more like Modern than D&D, I feel.

I agree on using the d20 Modern/Future system rather than the 3.5 D&D system for talents and whatnot. It makes the systems seem... Star Wars-y.

SAGA edition does have a conversion guide... perhaps you should start there? (Warning: 15 page PDF. Do not follow link without decently-fast Internet connection.)

[Kazasu]

Eh.. My dial up is 19 kbs.. on a good day. Thank you all for the helpful comments. Really helpful.

I also must say that Saga has interested me much more than DnD. Its system is relatively simple and easy to learn. Plus the fact that you can basically say what kind of character you want to play without even looking at the books, and then use the versatility of the rules to create it. You aren't limited to the books imagination, but instead, you are limited to your own. However, that is what I believe, and the comments are of my own opinion. I am in no way saying this is what other people should or do believe[/flameguard2.0]

[The_Snark]

I think the way they did the Force using feats and skills instead of a seperate spellcasting system, as well as how they take vitality points is one of the most elegant, well-implamented and inspired solutions to balance I've ever seen.

Jedi can still be awesome, they own with their lightsabers and have some really good abilities. However, they are incredibly MAD, have very little skill points left over after they pay for their force skills and are thus rather limited in what they can do outside of mind tricks and melee combat. Really, although some things here and there need to be tweaked, the system itself is AWESOME, and I will even say better-written and balanced then regular 3.5.

Things like how armor/weapon proficency matters alot more and is harder to get alot of. How in a game focused a bit more on social interaction, problem solving and detective work and a bit less on fighting bad guys, the classes are well-balanced to allow various roles to shine and feel useful without taking away from the others.

I will however admit that they two tech-classes, while appropriate for the setting and a stable trope of the genre, are poorly-designed and implimented, and serve as more NPC classes then anything.

Agreed on some of that. The Force skill system is one of the few skill-based magic systems I've seen in a d20 system that works, and is way better than the only D&D attempt to do so. I also like the vitality cost as a balancing mechanic, and as flavor—but it's not Star Wars flavor. Having use of the Force exhaust you is, for the most part, a complete divergence from the movies and (I think) most of the books. It's something I had to sort of quietly ignore in the game-world, rather than use.

And while the skill system sort of worked, it felt sort of clumsy that Illusion and Mind Trick weren't connected at all, and that Force Grip and Force Strike and Move Object were almost wholly unrelated, and that healing yourself was completely different from healing someone else... and so on, and so on. Saga has a much lesser version of the same problem.

The division between Force skills and Force feats also felt arbitrary. Why are there separate skills to move people and objects, and a feat to move yourself? I felt like they missed an opportunity here: condense the Force skills to a smaller number of skills (maybe along the Alter/Control/Sense divide, but with a little more variety than that), and make the player spend feats to gain stranger applications of them.

The classes also tended to be unexciting. The soldier was fine; there were enough feats to keep you interested, and it's essentially a D&D fighter in a world where weapon proficiencies are actually a nice bonus. The Jedi classes were likewise balanced (against each other, and against other classes by a combination of their lack of non-Force skills and vitality point costs). The scoundrel worked, mostly because of the skill points, but frankly lacked in class features. The noble was all right; the favor class ability was cool, the resource access was useful, and they had enough skill points to get by. The scout... well, you get class abilities related to trailblazing through the wilderness... and some skills, although not as many as the scoundrel and not from as good a class list for the most part.

A lot of the appeal of Saga, for me, was the class improvements. Now you get to pick your own class features from a list, rather than inventing a justification for your ace pilot to be good at buying and selling illegal stuff, or for your diplomat's sudden influx of money and tendency to make speeches in the middle of a fight. But I've always liked the Talent system, so that's nothing new. The feats have similarly improved, and most of them look like feats I could use for the right character.

Sorry, I just realized we're doing the sidetracking thing again. But I didn't have Saga when it first came out, so I missed most of the discussion about it back then, and I'm curious to talk with someone who disliked it. I'm guessing that it's the simplified skill system and new Force mechanics that you dislike?

[Kizara]

Agreed on some of that. The Force skill system is one of the few skill-based magic systems I've seen in a d20 system that works, and is way better than the only D&D attempt to do so. I also like the vitality cost as a balancing mechanic, and as flavor—but it's not Star Wars flavor. Having use of the Force exhaust you is, for the most part, a complete divergence from the movies and (I think) most of the books. It's something I had to sort of quietly ignore in the game-world, rather than use.

And while the skill system sort of worked, it felt sort of clumsy that Illusion and Mind Trick weren't connected at all, and that Force Grip and Force Strike and Move Object were almost wholly unrelated, and that healing yourself was completely different from healing someone else... and so on, and so on. Saga has a much lesser version of the same problem.

The division between Force skills and Force feats also felt arbitrary. Why are there separate skills to move people and objects, and a feat to move yourself? I felt like they missed an opportunity here: condense the Force skills to a smaller number of skills (maybe along the Alter/Control/Sense divide, but with a little more variety than that), and make the player spend feats to gain stranger applications of them.

The classes also tended to be unexciting. The soldier was fine; there were enough feats to keep you interested, and it's essentially a D&D fighter in a world where weapon proficiencies are actually a nice bonus. The Jedi classes were likewise balanced (against each other, and against other classes by a combination of their lack of non-Force skills and vitality point costs). The scoundrel worked, mostly because of the skill points, but frankly lacked in class features. The noble was all right; the favor class ability was cool, the resource access was useful, and they had enough skill points to get by. The scout... well, you get class abilities related to trailblazing through the wilderness... and some skills, although not as many as the scoundrel and not from as good a class list for the most part.

A lot of the appeal of Saga, for me, was the class improvements. Now you get to pick your own class features from a list, rather than inventing a justification for your ace pilot to be good at buying and selling illegal stuff, or for your diplomat's sudden influx of money and tendency to make speeches in the middle of a fight. But I've always liked the Talent system, so that's nothing new. The feats have similarly improved, and most of them look like feats I could use for the right character.

Sorry, I just realized we're doing the sidetracking thing again. But I didn't have Saga when it first came out, so I missed most of the discussion about it back then, and I'm curious to talk with someone who disliked it. I'm guessing that it's the simplified skill system and new Force mechanics that you dislike?

I'd like to continue as well, perhaps make another thread? I'll participate in it.

Also, I admit that I have not played RC as much as I'd have liked to, and have not played SAGA at all.

Now I'm going to stop myself from responding to the rest of your post so we don't complete the jacking of the thread.

[TheThan]

I'd like to continue as well, perhaps make another thread? I'll participate in it.

Also, I admit that I have not played RC as much as I'd have liked to, and have not played SAGA at all.

Now I'm going to stop myself from responding to the rest of your post so we don't complete the jacking of the thread.

I'm for it. It could prove interesting. (not the thread jacking).

[Kazasu]

Or you could just continue it on this thread? Seeing as its original purpose has been fullfilled...