[3.5] Change of Plane/Pantheon

[mindblank19]

How would a change of pantheon/plane affect players?

At some point in my campaign I plan to send my players into an alternate Material Plane through a one-way portal (haven't decided if I bring them back yet). This world has different races and deities than the old plane (no orcs for example).

My party is a human druid, a human warmage, a human paladin, and an orc barbarian.

Question 1: The warmage is devoted to Kossuth (god of fire), who is not available on this new plane, but the warmage is not a divine spellcaster. How would the loss of his god affect him? (or a divine spellcaster, for that matter?)

Question 2: Orcs, as I mentioned, don't exist on this plane. How would the orc barbarian be viewed by the mostly human population of the plane? Demon? God? Magical mutant? I need answers!

[afroakuma]

Usually, displaced orcs are seen as whatever the nearest world approximation would be. Giant goblin, short ogre etc.

It would largely depend on the world's culture, but demon is not out of the question.

As for clerical and religious matters, the typical stance is that if Kossuth had any affiliation with a like god on that world, that god would pick up the slack in monitoring Kossuth's worshippers. Technically, Kossuth can watch over him, but probably won't because of territorialism.

That said, I imagine local clergy would take time to warm to him in any event.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Define "not available."

In the default D&D cosmology, as far as I know, all deities are available on all planes (Inner, Outer, Material, Astral, Ethereal), unless there's a special circumstance. Their power is "routed" through the Astral Plane (I think? Ethereal connects Inner Planes, Astral connects Outer Planes?).

There are specific worlds, like Athas, that are actually cut off from the other planes except for limited conduits. Athas has no Astral connection and a limited Ethereal connection, planar travel is very rare and difficult, etc., and no deities can grant power to anyone on the plane. (Druids and clerics follow an element, using the power of the Inner Planes that is funneled into Athas, and Templars are granted similar powers by their Dragon Kings, who are themselves conduits for the same elemental power.)

If there's no Astral/Outer Plane connection, then you can't use any powers granted by deities from the Outer Planes. No spells, for sure. Probably no paladin abilities.

Elemental deities are probably different, though, since they live on the Inner Planes. If there's an Ethereal/Inner Plane connection, then you probably can use magic and powers granted by deities from the Inner Planes.

Positive and negative energy (turn/rebuke undead and feats that use these, like Divine Might) may be accessible directly from the appropriate Inner Planes, through the Ethereal.

Question 1: The warmage, if profoundly faithful, would probably feel an absence "in his heart" - the warmth or presence of his deity is gone. However, if the Inner Planes are accessible, this probably wouldn't be true. His magic wouldn't be affected. For a divine spellcaster, see above.

Question 2: As whatever he most resembles, probably. Most D&D worlds have enough strange and creepy creatures that people rarely see that an orc really wouldn't be that exceptional. Reception dependent on the local xenophobia. Note that nobody actually knows "Hey, you don't belong on this plane!" They just know "Hey, I haven't seen folks like you before."

[afroakuma]

Any Material world with access to the Inner planes permits positive and negative energy.

Despite Kossuth residing on the Plane of Fire, if another deity has the Fire portfolio on that world Kossuth cannot act.

Question 1) If there is a fire deity or suchlike who is friendly to Kossuth on this world, the warmage will likely feel that he is under a different but like-minded watch. He won't know this god's name, affiliation, powers etc.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Despite Kossuth residing on the Plane of Fire, if another deity has the Fire portfolio on that world Kossuth cannot act.

Say what? Only one deity per portfolio is allowed?

I can't be assed to go through Faiths & Pantheons, but this seems really unlikely to me. For one thing, don't most races and cultures have their own deities for each portfolio? There's a dwarven deity of love, and an elven deity of love, and a human/general deity of love...

[hamishspence]

I got impression the Elemental Gods were like Lolth, Grummsh, Orcus- multi-planar gods, spanning speparate pantheons of separate worlds. Kossuth is mentioned in Princes of Elemental Evil articles in Dragon magazine.

So, in effect, wherever there is a Plane of Fire, there is Kossuth- is my theory.

[afroakuma]

All gods can do that; most just don't. Lolth is a racial deity, and represents the drow everywhere, because no other deity has that portfolio. Orcus is a demon prince, not a god, and is part of no pantheon. Gruumsh could still represent the orc, if he was a worshipper (although he might be cut off on worlds such as Athas in any event) but would have to put up with the restrictions erected by the local pantheon.

In the Kossuth example, if the warmage was traveling to Krynn (the Dragonlance world) he would be administered by the local fire deity, Sirrion. Kossuth has no worshippers on Krynn.

Say what? Only one deity per portfolio is allowed?

I can't be assed to go through Faiths & Pantheons, but this seems really unlikely to me. For one thing, don't most races and cultures have their own deities for each portfolio? There's a dwarven deity of love, and an elven deity of love, and a human/general deity of love...

That is correct for a world. If a culture has its own pantheon, then that pantheon is insular unto itself - Faerun's Mulhorandi pantheon, for example. Much like the Greeks, Egyptians and Norse, there are shared portfolios, but in different pantheons. In each pantheon only one god may hold each portfolio. Note that there is a "Dwarven deity of love." This is a race-specific pantheon. If said deity tried to acquire human worshippers on Faerun, a holy war would begin between said deity and Sune. Essentially, they have completely different portfolios.

Now, were human adventurers transported to a solid-dwarf world, and one happened to worship Sune, the dwarven deity of love would likely administer that character's blessings on behalf on Sune while on a world governed by that pantheon.

Making any sense?

[hamishspence]

Or, if you prefer, Sirrion The Flowing Flame is Dragonlance name for him, just as (in old 2nd ed novels "The Queen of Darkness" really dwells in Baator, but calls her area "The Abyss" and is Tiamat In Disguise.

I personally like crossovers.

Orcus is full deity in Ghostwalk, and in Faerun- Faiths and Pantheons is listed as a Lesser God, as is Pazrael, one of Pazuzu's names. Greyhawk is one place he doesn't wield full divine power though.

[afroakuma]

Wasn't aware of Ghostwalk (I don't know half as much as I'd like about that one) but I didn't see Orcus in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting; nor Pazrael for that matter. Was this the 3.X one?

Sirrion the Flowing flame, yes; I didn't feel up to giving him the full styling. I picked him because he had (sort of) been the subejct of a massive crossover novel.

For my money, Takhisis is not Tiamat, but chose her shape in homage to her fellow deity of pure evil. Same for Paladine (the latter better supported in that their godly realms are on different layers of Celestia)

[hamishspence]

in Tymora's Luck Xvim masquerades as him- its a crossover novel.

And- see Faiths And Pantheons 3.0 source- back of book, monster deities.

and Manual of Planes says Bahamut lives in floating city that moves around on the layers.

[afroakuma]

in Tymora's Luck Xvim masquerades as him- its a crossover novel.

That's the one I was referring to, yes.

And- see Faiths And Pantheons 3.0 source- back of book, monster deities.

and Manual of Planes says Bahamut lives in floating city that moves around on the layers.

Back of book? I'll check it when I get home later tonight. The campaign setting didn't include him. Let me guess, undead deity? That's some writer getting their wires crossed.

Bahamut's original home layer was Lunia, I believe, while Paladine's always been on Solania.

[hamishspence]

Every Greyhawk book (Vile Darkness, Libris Mortis, Fiendish Codex 1) (& Dungeon magazine last print issues) list him as Demon Lord on the brink of ascending to deityhood.

Maybe in Ghostwalk and Faerun, he holds enough power to actually hold deityhood?

[Tsotha-lanti]

That is correct for a world. If a culture has its own pantheon, then that pantheon is insular unto itself - Faerun's Mulhorandi pantheon, for example. Much like the Greeks, Egyptians and Norse, there are shared portfolios, but in different pantheons. In each pantheon only one god may hold each portfolio. Note that there is a "Dwarven deity of love." This is a race-specific pantheon. If said deity tried to acquire human worshippers on Faerun, a holy war would begin between said deity and Sune. Essentially, they have completely different portfolios.

Now, were human adventurers transported to a solid-dwarf world, and one happened to worship Sune, the dwarven deity of love would likely administer that character's blessings on behalf on Sune while on a world governed by that pantheon.

Making any sense?

Not really. What are you basing this on? It doesn't reflect anything I recall reading in any D&D manual.

I can't see any reason that, say, multiple human cultures couldn't all have their own complete sets of deities and be able to convert to any other pantheon.

[afroakuma]

Not really. What are you basing this on?

Could you clarify what this referred to?

I can't see any reason that, say, multiple human cultures couldn't all have their own complete sets of deities and be able to convert to any other pantheon.

I never said they couldn't; in fact, I cited a specific example wherein they could: Mulhorand.

Hamishspence: He had held that power at one time, while in the guise of Tenebrous. After ressurection, he lost his divine power, slipping back to demon prince status. So in a planar sense, he is still a demon prince, though the closest of them all to deity status.

I assume he holds divine power in Ghostwalk because of the nature of the setting. As for Faerun, that's completely out of left field.

[hamishspence]

his story is long and complicated- to sum up:

Demon Prince Orcus was murdered by the Faerun deity Kiaransalee (in Greyhawk called Kiaransali)

Orcus rose as the Undead Deity Tenebrous. And wreaked havoc, killing multiple divine or near-divine entities, including Bwimb Princess of Ooze, and Primus, Lord of Modrons.

Orcus came back to life thanks to ritual by Quah-Nomag the Skull King, ogre-blooded human and most favoured servant. Even though the ritual was interrupted by adventurers.

While The Last Word power he did so much damage with was lost, the full Dungeon version of him retains some of its power.

And, when he shed that divine power and came back to life (though with some undead traits) it survived as a vestige, NE, still called Tenebrous, The Shadow That Was, which can be contacted by binders, and uniquely among vestiges, grant spells to clerics- Chaos, Evil, Death, Trickery.


does this cover most of the important details correctly?

[afroakuma]

Looks fully accurate. So as I stated, his current status should be demon prince. For now. Muahahahahahaha

[hamishspence]

In greyhawk, yes. Some entities do have more power elsewhere, If Pazuzu can as Pazrael, Orcus can.

[afroakuma]

I always view things from the planar perspective. In the Abyss, Orcus is not a power. It may be that he (and the aspect Pazrael) are worshipped and granting spells, but they are not powers.

[Innis Cabal]

Orcus was a deity for a time. He just wasn't Orcus

He also went around for a while acting as Primus after killing him.

[afroakuma]

Yes, we covered that. See hamish's post above.

[hamishspence]

maybe at the time they forgot to list Lesser God as Demon lord- serpent kingdoms, by contrast, lists the being worshipped by Khaastas and corrupted lizardmen as Demon Prince Sess-innek.

However as I said, Ghostwalk (which is rather further afield, and might not even have a Great Wheel), has him as a "full deity" depicted in both Fat Horned Fiend form and Shadowy Tenebrous form.

[afroakuma]

Yes, and as I stated, it makes a lot of sense to include him as a deity in that setting.

[hamishspence]

yes, maybe retcon Orcus and Pazrael's entries in Faerun to Demon Prince. Though, in 3rd ed, Great wheel vanished from Faerunian cosmology entirely to be replaced by The Tree and The Blood Rift.

From what I can tell, he had a hand in corruption of Damara and Vaasa, which was ended by Gareth Dragonsbane (though his smashing the Wand in the blood of a Tiamat avatar was probably not permanent)

And Narfell as well- early rulers were descendants of Orcus.

[afroakuma]

Not to mention duking it out with a drow goddess. I've always ignored the Great Tree, the Great Pokeball, heck, virtually all of them. I pay minor attention to Eberron's, but I play with Spalljammer and Planescape combined, so I'm less inclined to treat other worlds as alternate Material Planes.

[hamishspence]

And getting killed by her- was all of this in novels, game modules, or both?

I was inclined, especially given even after 3.0 Faerun had occasional Great Wheel references, to assume The wheel is still semi-valid in faerun- go to Blood Tor on Barrens and do right things and you might cross into the Abyssal Layer that corresponds to Blood Tor, mentioned in Fiendish Codex 1.

[afroakuma]

As far as I'm concerned, the Great Tree is just a set of linking Astral pathways to certain deific realms on the standard planes. Beshaba/Umberlee reside on the 13th layer of the Abyss.

I don't know of any novel detailing Orcus' demise. The backstory to his fall was available in the Dead Gods module, along with his time as Tenebrous and his demotion ressurection. Not to mention the part where Kiaransalee soiled herself.

[hamishspence]

Dead Gods module was 2nd ed?

I've reconstructed the info entirely from 3.0 to 3.5 products and Dragon magazines.

[afroakuma]

Dead Gods was 2nd Ed., yes. It was the adventure detailing Tenebrous' quest to regain his wand, his failure to do so and his subsequent ressurection from his dead god form (which collapsed his divinity)

[hamishspence]

I notice that even if Tenebrous failed to get wand back, 3.0 Orcus has it, as does 3.5 Orcus aspect, and Dungeon Orcus Himself (with weaker Word). Did it reconstitute?

[afroakuma]

His demon self got it back. He clocked out as Tenebrous right before getting it, due to having used the Last Word.