Ultimate Magus Classes

[Cowboy_ninja]

What is a spontaneous arcane casting class that has spells a Wizard can't get?

[only1doug]

Bard (cure spells)

[Kurald Galain]

What is a spontaneous arcane casting class that has spells a Wizard can't get?

That isn't really the point of an UM. The point is lots 'n lots of spells per day.

[MeklorIlavator]

Sorcerer(Draconomicon has some, as do several other books) and Warmage gets a few.

[Cowboy_ninja]

Sorcerer(Draconomicon has some, as do several other books) and Warmage gets a few.

well just to be clear the armor casting thing from the warmage/beguiler wont apply to the wizards spells ever. right?

[Kurald Galain]

well just to be clear the armor casting thing from the warmage/beguiler wont apply to the wizards spells ever. right?

It will if you take a level in Spellthief and grab the Master Spellthief feat.

But then, you don't really need armor all that much, anyway.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Light Armor:Mithral Breastplate +1, costs 5,200 GP, weighs 15 LBS, adds 6 to your AC, ACP of -1 and gives you a max Dex of +5, as well as whatever you had to do to get rid of the ASF.
No Armor: Greater Mage Armor. Costs one 3rd level slot, gives you +6 to AC. No max Dex, no ACP, no weight. Much more worth it.

[Eldariel]

Nar Demonbinder. It just happens to own otherwise too, putting you just one level behind a straight Wizard and getting you a superb Familiar while at it. You get stuff like Spell Resistance and the Blasphemy-line (for Ultimate Magus and the side with higher CL!). Although, to be fair, a Wizard with sufficient work can get any spells he wants.

[Waspinator]

Just grab one of those mithril chain shirts with all of the doodads that reduce arcane spell failure to 0% if you really want armor.

[Cowboy_ninja]

nah armor is no biggy to me.

i want to make a spell caster opptimized for metamagic. I figured a sorc/wiz ultimate magus was kinda redundant (b/c they have the same spell lists) and wanted to know if there were any more interesting combinations.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Beguiler works better than Sorc due to the casting stat. Duskblade is also good, for the same reason.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

I would have to say Duskblade also. full BAB, good saves, high hit dice, and the ability to channel spell power into a melee weapon. They do get a lot of the same spells, but it's based off of INT anyway...

[Eldariel]

Nar Demonbinder is easily worth it in spite of the casting stat though - you'll have a good number of non-stat related spells on the Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East) side and continue to accrue more as you get the Ultimate Magus-abilities that take Wizard-spells and move them to the spontaneous side. Also, you end up with level 8 casting on Demonbinder's side and 1-to-full on Wizard-side, so you can actually compete with a straight Wizard in spellcasting department.

[Sinfire Titan]

Ultimate Magus is a bad choice for a Duskblade unless you use the adaptation section to convert it into Spontaneous/Spontaneous and enter via Duskblade 13/Nar-Demonbinder 2 and have Wands of Divine Power somewhere on yoru character sheet.

Wizard/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus is considered strong. Also, Wu-Jen/Beguiler (or Sorcerer, if you want the spell list access) is good. Dread Necromancer/Wizard, with the right tricks can get into True Necromancer. Not very powerful (as they only end up with 8th level spells on both sides), but it can be entertaining.

The most powerful entry into it is Dragonwrought Kobold Wizard 5/War Weaver 5 with Loredrake. You end up with nice metamagic, decent spells, and the War Weaver's best abilities. Stopping part-way through Ultimate Magus to pick up 4 Legacy Champion levels that advance War Weaver is also a good idea.

[Tokiko Mima]

Other classes?? Bah! A wizard needs no such distractions. What you want is to take Spontaneous Divination replacement feature (from Complete Champion) at level 5 and cast spells as a wizard both spontaneous and with preparation. Then you get to *really* be an Ultimate Magus, with ninth level spells in your low teens.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Other classes?? Bah! A wizard needs no such distractions. What you want is to take Spontaneous Divination replacement feature (from Complete Champion) at level 5 and cast spells as a wizard both spontaneous and with preparation. Then you get to *really* be an Ultimate Magus, with ninth level spells in your low teens.

That shouldn't work...but somehow I suspect it does.

[FMArthur]

I think it does, I just read up on Ultimate Magus and Spontaneous Divination. The make-or-break point is whether or not a Wizard with Spontaneous Divination can be referred to as a "spontaneous arcane casting class". I think it does; it's a fairly descriptive phrase, which any class able to cast arcane spells spontaneously qualifies for. If it were a feat granting this ability, I'd say no, because this refers only to the class itself, but when you replace the class's features, those new features are now part of the class.

So he qualifies, and gains the full benefit of the super-spellcasting benefit because not one part of the spellcasting description states or implies that the identities of your casting classes must be mutually exclusive.

You gain the normal benefit from Arcane Spell Power.
Expanded Spell Knowledge doesn't work at all because for your spontaneous casting you are only able to cast divinations, all of which you already have access to.
Augmented Casting doesn't work either, because it refers to the benefit going to "another" class, and 'another' indicates mutually exclusive identities.

But those aren't even important, compared to the power of a 13th-level Wizard with 9th-level spells. It obviously wasn't designed with a single class in mind, but takes no preventative measures against it. Class features not working don't prevent you from qualifying for and advancing in the class.

Oh, and you don't gain the benefit of increased spellcasting progression on the 10th level, since your Wizard casting hit 20th on the 9th level of UM.



So... what do you do with those 6 extra levels?

[Sinfire Titan]

That shouldn't work...but somehow I suspect it does.

It doesn't. Char Ops has disproved that theory ever since people tried using Southern Magician to get Cleric 15 at 10th level. They disproved the Spontaneous Divinations wizard when I posted the idea over there too.

[Andras]

what do you do with those 6 extra levels?

Go for the gold, take levels in Ur-Priest.

They disproved the Spontaneous Divinations wizard when I posted the idea over there too.

Please, explain.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm pretty sure a Spontaneous Divination Wizard is just as much a spontaneous arcane class as a Cleric who can convert spells into Cures or Inflicts or a Druid who can spontaneously convert spells into Summons would be considered a spontaneous divine class. If you're spontaneously converting prepared spells into other spells, you're not casting them spontaneously in the same sense that a true spontaneous caster converts open spell slots into whatever spells they cast. Spontaneously converting prepared spells does not make a spontaneous casting class.

[Kurald Galain]

That shouldn't work...but somehow I suspect it does.

It relies on a highly dodgy interpretation of what the rules actually say, that runs against both grammar and common sense. I seriously doubt that any DM would let you get away with that.

[Captain Six]

What is a spontaneous arcane casting class that has spells a Wizard can't get?

If you're looking for one ask your DM if you can be a sorcerer with the Wu Jen spell list, it's a lot different but not any better than a wizards/sorcerers. Or if you want to follow RAW, be a Wu Jen and multiclass sorcerer. After all, what spells can a wizard get that a sorcerer can't?

[RMS Oceanic]

Other classes?? Bah! A wizard needs no such distractions. What you want is to take Spontaneous Divination replacement feature (from Complete Champion) at level 5 and cast spells as a wizard both spontaneous and with preparation. Then you get to *really* be an Ultimate Magus, with ninth level spells in your low teens.

If the party Wizard tried to pull that one on me, He'd find himself in a druidic forest suffering from a curious disease...[/Start of Darkness]

Playing it properly, Beguiler/Wizard seems to be the best bet, as it minimizes MAD. As for sorceror-only spells, there's a 5th Level Universal spell from complete mage that lets you simultaneously cast a fourth level spell and a first level spell you know.

[Tokiko Mima]

Well, I've always felt that 3.5 D&D needed a hard and fast rule that you can only cast spells that a pure-caster with as many levels as you have Hit Die could cast. There are too many abilities and creatures that break that rule, e.g. Nymph's cast as 7th level Druids but have 6 HD and there are a lot of templates that grant SLAs for spells you couldn't cast if it were based on HD.

Yeah, there's not a lot of constraints on out of control caster power in 3.5, to put it bluntly. You'd really need to apply Rule 0 to make the Spontaneously Divining Ultimate Magus not work, because it's more or less RAW but not RAI.

If the party Wizard tried to pull that one on me, He'd find himself in a druidic forest suffering from a curious disease...[/Start of Darkness]

So... the solution is becoming a lich, you say?

[RMS Oceanic]

So... the solution is becoming a lich, you say?

The Wizard would then discover that he suffers from a congenital defect that allows virii to affect him even if he has become undead. No save.

[Sinfire Titan]

Go for the gold, take levels in Ur-Priest.



Please, explain.

I tried the exact same thing, and they showed me the FAQ and Sage rulings (which are very reasonable, as getting faster spell access for so little is absurdly powerful).

[Emperor Tippy]

I tried the exact same thing, and they showed me the FAQ and Sage rulings (which are very reasonable, as getting faster spell access for so little is absurdly powerful).

Sage and FAQ have no bearing on RAW discussions.

RAW Spontaneous Divination should allow a wizard to qualify for Ultimate Magus. Whether or not you can get double caster progression is the debatable point.

RAI it's not supposed to be allowed.

[Eldariel]

It's funny that by RAW, Wizard/Nar Demonbinder has to use Spontaneous Divination to qualify for Ultimate Magus since UM requires the ability to cast level 1 Spontaneous Spells, something Nar Demonbinder does not provide. That said, in that case I wouldn't see a problem with it as it seems against RAI not to allow Demonbinder work anyways.

[Thurbane]

Full casting* (base) classes -

Spontaneous:
Bard* (CHA)
Beguiler (INT)
Dread Necromancer (CHA)
Duskblade* (INT)
Sorcerer (CHA)
Warmage (CHA)

Non-Spontaneous:
Wizard (INT)
Wu-jen (INT)

...did I miss any?

[The Glyphstone]

Well, if the Bard is on there, the Duskblade would deserve a spot too, wouldn't it?