Combining 3.5 and 4th

[DiscipleofBob]

After giving 4th edition a good test run, while there are still mixed feelings in my group, two things are definite. 1) DMing is a lot less work with the 4th edition Monster Manual. I have a lot more time to focus on other aspects of a D&D session such as the storyline, and if I have to run an encounter off the cuff because of something unexpected, it's actually plausible. 2) 3.5 classes and PC gameplay are more fun. 4th edition classes are good for party balance and an almost video game-esque feel, but since balance has never been a huge concern for us, the way some of the classes have been revamped seems more of a hindrance. The wizard no longer feels like a wizard with his vastly limited spell list, the concept of encounter and daily powers seem too artificial, and healing has been rendered near moot.

Disclaimer: I'm don't want to start a 3.5 vs. 4th edition thread here. This is just the conclusion my group has come to.

Is it plausible/a good idea to use, say, 4th edition monsters when players are playing 3.5 PC's?

What adjustments would I have to make?

Are there any houserules that would make the combination of the two more smooth?

[Kaiyanwang]

IMMHO, the effort would be greater than the advantages. It's difficult even to imagine it.

[DiscipleofBob]

Well, I'm not looking for a whole list of rules set in stone to follow by the letter when trying to play this way. Just some guidelines so either the players or monsters don't overpower one another simply due to mechanical differences. I'm hoping that will make this slightly easier.

[EvilElitest]

It will be hard, because they are such different games, and 4E relies so heavely upon its own internal design to keep its balance. But it could work, but i'd suggest first converting the 4E elements you want to 3E, then trying to reboot the entire game to a new sort of 5E edition
from
EE

[FoE]

I think you would have huge problems. 4E monsters scale in a different way to 3.5E. For the first few levels, your PCs would get slaughtered; and once you get into levels 11-20, I think you would have to start throwing much epic monsters at the PCs just to make it work.

Also, the tactics would be totally different: your monsters would be using tactics to slide and shift your players, but your PCs wouldn't.

If your problem is a gimped wizard, why not just homebrew some better spells for him?

[Yakk]

Building encounters in 4e is easier because the players have a pretty well defined HP, Healing and Offense 'budget'.

It takes about 4 hits (more if they are all at-will, less if they are all encounter/dailies) to take out an even-level opponent.

3e isn't built around that. So you certainly lose every single 'build encounter' tool in 4e, because they don't work anymore.

3e doesn't control modifiers to d20 rolls tightly, while 4e does. This means a level X opponent to a level X player isn't in an auto-hit or auto-miss situation usually.

4e balances monsters around having fights that last 6 to 10 rounds, so they have a mix of alpha-strike and sustained damage. This assumption is not valid in 3e.

...

In 3e, saves and DCs go up by some random amount. The first approximation is (level/2) plus your change in stats. Stats go up by about +8/20 levels. Enchanted items go up by about 5/20 levels. Call it +1 to +1.15/level total for PC saves.

In 3e, AC goes up by some random amount. It is quite easy to generate insane to-hit or insane AC levels. Power attack leverages AC hits into nearly instant-kills of the target.

Fighter (full-BaB) ATK goes up by +1 per level and +stat and +enchantment and +other. Enchantment is 5/20 levels, stat is +8/20 levels, meaning that full-BaB class ATK goes up by about +1.65/level. Less for 3/4 and 1/2 BaB classes, naturally.

In 4e, saves go up by about 1 per level. AC goes up by about 1 per level.

Damage-output wise, 3e doesn't attempt to generate any kind of damage budget that I can find. So HP are anyone's guess.

[Eorran]

One of the reasons 4e encounters are easy to build is the monsters are supposed to be out-of-the-box ready.
I think the only thing to do is a trial run, no modifications. Probably at something like level 5 - at level 1, 3.5 PCs don't have the resources to fight 4e lvl 1s. Unless you give them their Con score as a HP bonus at lvl1.

And let us know what you find out.

Here's a suggestion for someone with lots of time on their hands - look at the 3.5 MM and modify it to provide the advantages of 4e MM by assigning roles and simplifying the SA/SQ. Granted CR doesn't work well.

[DiscipleofBob]

It will be hard, because they are such different games, and 4E relies so heavely upon its own internal design to keep its balance. But it could work, but i'd suggest first converting the 4E elements you want to 3E, then trying to reboot the entire game to a new sort of 5E edition
from
EE

Well, the thing I like most about 4th Edition is the layout of the Monster Manual. Each monster entry usually has several examples of said monster (good for variation), lists what role they provide in combat (easy to play one-time monsters without extensive research or playtesting), and if I need to, monsters are similar enough to each other that I can just switch the names and flavor on one monster stat block and have a completely new monster. I don't need to worry about adding appropriate class levels, HD, or feats as necessary. This is the main element I'd like to import over to 3.5 games.

I also like the idea of At-Wills, particularly how stuff like Prestidigitation can be used as much as you want all day.

I think you would have huge problems. 4E monsters scale in a different way to 3.5E. For the first few levels, your PCs would get slaughtered; and once you get into levels 11-20, I think you would have to start throwing much epic monsters at the PCs just to make it work.

Also, the tactics would be totally different: your monsters would be using tactics to slide and shift your players, but your PCs wouldn't.

If your problem is a gimped wizard, why not just homebrew some better spells for him?

What I would like to do is just adjust the numbers accordingly on specific monsters to make them "level-appropriate" based on what I think the PC's could handle AC-wise, damage-wise, and HP-wise. I'm honestly not too concerned about balance. Our group has taken out grossly overpowered enemies with over 1000 hit points multiple times in several different campaigns, despite every reason we should have lost, and not through a matter of DM fiat on our part. We weren't using traditionally overpowered classes either; fighters, blaster-casters, druids who rarely wild-shaped, bards, and we do just fine. I guess it's just our playstyle.

The slide-push-pull tactics are one of the biggest things, since bull rushing etc. is much more difficult in 3.5. I'm thinking about simply importing some of the much easier bull rush/grapple/etc. mechanics from 4th or simply replace some of the push-pull moves on the monsters with another ability.

The problem isn't just the wizard, though he's the best example by far. The healers can only heal once or twice per encounter. The rogue is forced to choose between one of the many Utility powers for skill checks (which, IMO, a rogue should be able to do EVERYTHING the level 2 utility powers describe). The ranger is the only class who can TWF effectively. Intelligence is effectively a useless stat unless you're one of the appropriate classes. And finally, the level progression for every class is, well, rather boring. All of the cool class features come at either 1st, 11th, or 21st level and the only thing you get other than feats or stat points or powers which have limited uses. Not to mention you'll eventually have to GET RID of old powers just to get new ones. These are the primary complaints my group has of 4th edition.

One of the reasons 4e encounters are easy to build is the monsters are supposed to be out-of-the-box ready.
I think the only thing to do is a trial run, no modifications. Probably at something like level 5 - at level 1, 3.5 PCs don't have the resources to fight 4e lvl 1s. Unless you give them their Con score as a HP bonus at lvl1.

And let us know what you find out.

Here's a suggestion for someone with lots of time on their hands - look at the 3.5 MM and modify it to provide the advantages of 4e MM by assigning roles and simplifying the SA/SQ. Granted CR doesn't work well.

These are good suggestions, I'll try some of these for next game.

[FoE]

No, no, no, you didn't get my point. While 4E PCs follow a gradual progression in power as they gain levels, 3.5 PCs start jumping by leaps and bounds once you've cleared, oh, 6th level? The problem is not the PCs being able to beat the monsters; the problem is that you would have to use over-powered monsters just to be on the same playing field with the PCs after the first few levels.

[DiscipleofBob]

No, no, no, you didn't get my point. While 4E PCs follow a gradual progression in power as they gain levels, 3.5 PCs start jumping by leaps and bounds once you've cleared, oh, 6th level? The problem is not the PCs being able to beat the monsters; the problem is that you would have to use over-powered monsters just to be on the same playing field with the PCs after the first few levels.

Very true...

If/when I try this, I'll be sure to keep in mind the different power increases.

On the other hand, if at early levels I have to lower the numbers of level-appropriate monsters, then maybe at those higher levels I can do less gimping of the monsters.