The Ur-Priest

[Heliomance]

Am I reading the class right? So far as I can make out, you can get into Ur-Priest at level six with a human Factotum 1/Fighter 2/Wizard 2 with Able Learner. This then means that you have 9th level cleric spells at level 14. That's truly disgusting.

[RMS Oceanic]

You haven't even fully abused its power, although it's slightly balanced by having fewer high-level spells per day. Take Wizard to level 9 (Enough to make the fort/will requirements), dip two levels in Ur Priest, then Mystic Theruge the rest of the way. By Level 19 you have 9th level arcane and divine spells!

[kamikasei]

It is a fairly ridiculous class, but was certainly intended to be harder to get in to than that. It's the combination of Factotum and a PrC with awkward skill prereqs that's making it look so bad.

[Heliomance]

You could do the same with Bard.

[AKA_Bait]

You could do the same with Bard.

Yes you can.

[Heliomance]

I meant the level 6 entry. Bard 1/Fighter 2/Wizard 2 gets in at sixth level, gaining 9th level spells 5 levels earlier than anything has a right to.

[kamikasei]

I'll have to look up the prereqs when I get home and see if there isn't something besides the skills that make it hard to get in to.

[Heliomance]

You need:
Two feats
Fort and Will +3
5 ranks in two skills, 6 ranks in one skill, and 8 ranks in two skills, all of which are on the bard spell list.

[Fax Celestis]

*idly wonders if one could go Factotum 1/Shadowcaster 2/Fighter 2/Ur-Priest 2/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 3 for double advancements.*

[Coplantor]

Let's see, I'm a horrible DM, and i allowed a player of mine to create a 12 level character. He did some combinations between wizard, Ur, theurge and swashbuckler. The guy killed a CR 21 dragon in one round.

[Scaboroth]

You're not a horrible DM. Exploding a dragon's head in one round is a classic at my gaming table.

[Frosty]

Warlock can also get the skills needed methinks.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ur-Priest is not as unbalancing as it at first appears. Look at it this way:

Character Level 6, Ur-Priest 1 with 1st level spells, everyone else has 3rd;
Character Level 7, Ur-Priest 2 with 2nd level spells, everyone else has 4th;
Character Level 8, Ur-Priest 3 with 3rd level spells, everyone else has 4th;
Character Level 9, Ur-Priest 4 with 4th level spells, everyone else has 5th;
Character Level 10, Ur-Priest 5 with 5th level spells, everyone else has 5th,
congratulations, half way through your adventuring career you've finally caught up with everyone else.

Character Level 11, Ur-Priest 6 with 6th level spells, everyone else has 6th;
Character Level 12, Ur-Priest 7 with 7th level spells, everyone else has 6th,
congratulations, you've finally pulled ahead of everyone else on highest level spells, at a level that most characters never even reach in the fist place.

Character Level 13, Ur-Priest 8 with 8th level spells, everyone else has 7th;
Character Level 14, Ur-Priest 9 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 7th;
Character Level 15, Ur-Priest 10 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 8th;
Character Level 16, Ur-Priest 10 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 8th;
Character Level 17, Ur-Priest 10 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 9th,
they've caught back up, you were ahead by a total of five character levels, 1/4 of your adventuring career, for the price of being behind everyone else for the fist half of your adventuring career.

You'd be better off going Wizard 10/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8 anyway.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Spoiler

Show

Ur-Priest is not as unbalancing as it at first appears. Look at it this way:

Character Level 6, Ur-Priest 1 with 1st level spells, everyone else has 3rd;
Character Level 7, Ur-Priest 2 with 2nd level spells, everyone else has 4th;
Character Level 8, Ur-Priest 3 with 3rd level spells, everyone else has 4th;
Character Level 9, Ur-Priest 4 with 4th level spells, everyone else has 5th;
Character Level 10, Ur-Priest 5 with 5th level spells, everyone else has 5th,
congratulations, half way through your adventuring career you've finally caught up with everyone else.

Character Level 11, Ur-Priest 6 with 6th level spells, everyone else has 6th;
Character Level 12, Ur-Priest 7 with 7th level spells, everyone else has 6th,
congratulations, you've finally pulled ahead of everyone else on highest level spells, at a level that most characters never even reach in the fist place.

Character Level 13, Ur-Priest 8 with 8th level spells, everyone else has 7th;
Character Level 14, Ur-Priest 9 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 7th;
Character Level 15, Ur-Priest 10 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 8th;
Character Level 16, Ur-Priest 10 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 8th;
Character Level 17, Ur-Priest 10 with 9th level spells, everyone else has 9th,
they've caught back up, you were ahead by a total of five character levels, 1/4 of your adventuring career, for the price of being behind everyone else for the fist half of your adventuring career.

You'd be better off going Wizard 10/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8 anyway.

Keep in mind though that they get far more free levels to play with. Psychic Warrior 4/Monk 1/Ur-Priest 10/X 5 gets a lot of benefits compared to a normal Cleric. Not to mention the obscenities that can be done with PrCs and similar.

[Heliomance]

There is also of course the roleplaying balance to it that every religious organisation in the world will hate you. You're stealing power from the gods - you're going to get squads of paladins after you. Early 9th level spells won't help that much when 20 paladins crest the hill.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

An oldschool gamer friend of mine came over when I was playing BG2 about a year ago and I was on the Suldanesselar dragon. I told him I was going to drop it in one round, he didn't believe me. I ran everyone in tanks first, paused before the dialogue started (refresh rate was turned up), ordered all three of my mages to use their Spell Sequencers on it (each had Flame Arrow x3), the arrows were in the air when the dialogue started, I clicked through it, and the dragon hit the dirt, a charred husk of its former glory. My friend didn't even have any words to describe his amazement.

Edit: my super lag made me double post without me even noticing...

[Heliomance]

/me fails to see what that has to do with Ur-Priests.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

/me fails to see what that has to do with Ur-Priests.

There were some people talking about dropping a dragon in one round, I'd tried posting but thought my lag ate it, so I took the time to tack the story onto the end of my post. When it finally did post, I saw that my earlier attempt had worked after all, so I edited out the redundant portion, leaving only the story...

[BobVosh]

There is also of course the roleplaying balance to it that every religious organisation in the world will hate you. You're stealing power from the gods - you're going to get squads of paladins after you. Early 9th level spells won't help that much when 20 paladins crest the hill.

Methinks you are doing your 9th level spells wrong. A 5th lvl spell would work fine. Teleport. I would like to see pallies keep up with that.

[Heliomance]

They'll keep showing up though. They'll interrupt you when you're trying to adventure, or whatever. And eventually they'll catch you when you're out of spells. And that's assuming they don't just bring along someone to cast Dimensional Anchor.

[Weiser_Cain]

at which point I stop the game and tell ken or whoever is DMing why he let me make an Ur-priest if he was just going to try and kill off my character specifically. What with the Ur-priest shaped traps, the random doors to Celestia in place of tavern bathrooms, pools of poisoned divine juice...

[Zeta Kai]

They'll keep showing up though. They'll interrupt you when you're trying to adventure, or whatever. And eventually they'll catch you when you're out of spells. And that's assuming they don't just bring along someone to cast Dimensional Anchor.

Yeah, that's not an issue with the religious of the world hating you. That's an issue with the DM hating you. If your DM allows an Ur-Priest in their game without comment, you have a legitimate argument against excessive retribution.

[Eldariel]

*idly wonders if one could go Factotum 1/Shadowcaster 2/Fighter 2/Ur-Priest 2/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 3 for double advancements.*

There was actually an old Char Ops thread on building Triple Threats and Quad Threats.

[Talya]

You haven't even fully abused its power, although it's slightly balanced by having fewer high-level spells per day. Take Wizard to level 9 (Enough to make the fort/will requirements), dip two levels in Ur Priest, then Mystic Theruge the rest of the way. By Level 19 you have 9th level arcane and divine spells!

...so an actually cheesy, viable use for Mystic Theurge?

[Heliomance]

Yeah, that's not an issue with the religious of the world hating you. That's an issue with the DM hating you. If your DM allows an Ur-Priest in their game without comment, you have a legitimate argument against excessive retribution.

Oh, I agree the DM should warn you in advance that if you make an Ur-Priest, every faith in existance will be out for your hide. But looking at it from an in-game perspective, if you were the high priest of a church - or even a god - would you put up with someone stealing your god's/your power? I really don't think so. Anything other than attempted termination with extreme prejudice breaks verisimilitude somewhat.

[BrainFreeze]

I wouldnt call it the DM hating you, perhaps you should have read the background before picking the class.

For some reason i cant see servents of Pelor allowing the injustice that is you to live.

[Vinotaur]

1) How on earth do they know you are an Ur-Priest?

2) How do they know where to find you?

3) Having People attack you is not a disadvantage. This is D&D, someone will be attacking you. It's comparatively an advantage to know who is going to attack you, especially when your class gives you spell resistance against those people.

If your DM makes encounters that are above CR guidelines then your DM is being a jerk. If they are within CR guidelines, then you kill Paladins instead of Fighters and you still get XP.

[Sinfire Titan]

No one's even bothered with Binder 2/Wizard 1 or Binder 1/Hexblade 2? You meet over half of the requirements by 3rd level, the only thing you need is ranks in the right skills.

Oh, and Pally of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 2/Crusader (or Swordsage) 2/Ur-priest 2/Contemplative 1/War-priest 1/Ordained Champion 5/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5=Uber Gish.

[Callos_DeTerran]

1) How on earth do they know you are an Ur-Priest?

2) How do they know where to find you?

3) Having People attack you is not a disadvantage. This is D&D, someone will be attacking you. It's comparatively an advantage to know who is going to attack you, especially when your class gives you spell resistance against those people.

If your DM makes encounters that are above CR guidelines then your DM is being a jerk. If they are within CR guidelines, then you kill Paladins instead of Fighters and you still get XP.

1) More powerful you get the more you drain, eventually the god will notice and inform his followers.

2) There is a whole school called Divination that'd likely be directed towards finding you.

3)This is a good point, unless they start doing something completely silly and hire other people who you can't defend against after the first couple cleric/paladin groups get thrashed.

If they are consistently within CR guidelines then he's not being a jerk, he's being soft. People notice if they send progressively stronger people to murder you that you keep on squeeking by, eventually they'll just calling extraplanar help or some such to 'end it once and for all'. The trick isn't to defeat the people they send after you, it's to evade them so they DON'T send the big guns after you. That way they think your still too weak to be a REAL threat which is why you are hiding.

[Adumbration]

Is there any way to double up Sublime Chord and Ur-priest with Mystic Theurge? Get a level each on Sublime and Ur, then go up MT 9? Or are the requirements too steep?