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Thread: The Ur-Priest

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrainFreeze View Post
    So by your opinion churches are stupid enough to send the exact same force that was destroyed the first second and third time, a fourth time and expect it to succeed where the first 3 failed?
    If you want any dramatic tension, or to maintain the CR system at all, they'd better. (Unless the Ur Priest is stomping them easily, then you should up the CR until it's fair.) It's incredibly anticlimactic for the GM to go "The omnipotent opponent you are facing has realized you'll be a threat later, so he's sending his Initiate of the Seven Fold Veils after you. He's 10 levels higher than you." or something like that. It's the same reason why the Batman never just shoots the Joker, or why the Bond Villain always places our spyful hero in a death trap. Because just killing him is not dramatic or heroic at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinotaur View Post
    Except that you are forgetting the part where overwhelming force is a KO every time, and you can't be a fugitive from it.

    Most Angels have the spell of spell like ability Holy Word. This is a spell that literally says, you kill any Ur-Priest that you are stronger then. Dead.

    You can't be a fugitive when a bunch of people with higher CLs are spending all their time scrying you and then killing you with spells that make you double dead.
    Take the Dungeon Master's Guide. Open up on page 49. Check out the table 3-2: Encounter Difficulty in the lower right corner. Realize that about 5% of the encounters are suggested to be of the 'overpowering' variant.

    Flip to page 50. Read the entry for 'overpowering': "The PCs should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose. The Encounter Level is 5 or more levels higher then the party level."

    Throwing an unwinnable encounter at the party is NOT bad GMing. It's right there, in the RAW. Throwing an unwinnable AND UNESCAPABLE encounter at the party is. Unless you want this to be the final fight of the campaign or something. For a party of evildoers, finally having karma catch up with them is probably just as fitting an end to a campaign as is finally defeating the BBEG for the heroic party.

    You do remember that the standard Ur-Priest is evil, yes?

    As for the angels: Someone already mentioned that there are ways to protect from scrying. There are ways of protecting from things like Holy Word. It is up to the players to find and use them.

    Or do you pity a party that suffers defeat when going up against, say, a red dragon without loading up on flame retardant?

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    Bah. Lycar is absolutely right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinotaur View Post
    Except that you are forgetting the part where overwhelming force is a KO every time, and you can't be a fugitive from it.
    Bah. Lycar is absolutely right.
    Also, I don't understand how you have simultaneously decided:
    1. individual enemies will use every tool (scry, teleport, etc) at their disposal to track you down whereever you may flee and destroy you
    2. enemy organizations will refrain from using any opponent that is too high a CR for you to defeat in combat.

    It's fine if you want to say "Lord of the Rings wouldn't be my style of game". But to claim that nobody else should play in that style... is a little odd. And Lord of the Rings is an extreme on the hiding/running side. There is plenty of middle ground.

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    Now we come to the most important part of this topic.

    How do you pronounce the "Ur" in Ur-Priest? I've always preferred to pronounce it "er". As in the first sound in Earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    Bah. Lycar is absolutely right.
    May I sig this, pretty please?

    Quote Originally Posted by KKL View Post
    Now we come to the most important part of this topic.

    How do you pronounce the "Ur" in Ur-Priest? I've always preferred to pronounce it "er". As in the first sound in Earth.
    Er? As in 'er'renously believing he can get away with thumping his nose at gods forwever?

    Of course, in german the 'U' gets pronounced like the 'ou' in 'you', so that's a bit like 'How do you pronounce potatoe?' 'Kartoffel.'

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    Bah. Lycar is absolutely right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weiser_Cain View Post
    at which point I stop the game and tell ken or whoever is DMing why he let me make an Ur-priest if he was just going to try and kill off my character specifically.
    Its your choice if you want to paint a target on your chest, and if that's really what you want to do, then why should the GM stop you?

    Becoming a target of every religious order in the world is a pretty obvious consequence of becoming an ur-priest; if you're not willing to accept the consequences of becoming an Ur-Priest, then don't become one.
    Last edited by Jayabalard; 2008-11-14 at 09:42 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycar View Post
    Take the Dungeon Master's Guide. Open up on page 49. Check out the table 3-2: Encounter Difficulty in the lower right corner. Realize that about 5% of the encounters are suggested to be of the 'overpowering' variant.

    Flip to page 50. Read the entry for 'overpowering': "The PCs should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose. The Encounter Level is 5 or more levels higher then the party level."

    Throwing an unwinnable encounter at the party is NOT bad GMing. It's right there, in the RAW. Throwing an unwinnable AND UNESCAPABLE encounter at the party is. Unless you want this to be the final fight of the campaign or something. For a party of evildoers, finally having karma catch up with them is probably just as fitting an end to a campaign as is finally defeating the BBEG for the heroic party.
    1) A party facing an encounter EL 5 over the party level is not overpowering. It's a 50-50 shot either way. And it doesn't matter if it says you should run, you still can't run from something that moves faster then you can can kill you in a single standard action.

    2) There is one defense against Holy Word for an Ur-Priest, and that involves not being able to cast spells. Probably a bad deal when every single Cleric or Angel in the game can beat him in melee or ranged combat.

    3) If the Dragon teleports out of nowhere, they had no idea they would be facing him that day, and then he breathes a single breath which does not provide a Reflex save, and instantly kills every non Fire immune creature in the party, then yes, I pity the party that has to deal with that horrible DM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    Bah. Lycar is absolutely right.
    Also, I don't understand how you have simultaneously decided:
    1. individual enemies will use every tool (scry, teleport, etc) at their disposal to track you down whereever you may flee and destroy you
    2. enemy organizations will refrain from using any opponent that is too high a CR for you to defeat in combat.

    It's fine if you want to say "Lord of the Rings wouldn't be my style of game". But to claim that nobody else should play in that style... is a little odd. And Lord of the Rings is an extreme on the hiding/running side. There is plenty of middle ground.
    1) Yes, individuals will use every tool at their disposal that does not consumer permanent resources, because that's what individuals do. If I am told to find someone, I will totally use the internet instead of just hoping to actually run into them. This is because if I want to find them I will do my best.

    2) Enemy organizations will refrain from using an opponent that is too high CR because every organization has a million things to do at once. If the head of the church is a level 20 Cleric, then he is not going to be hunting down a level 10 Ur-Priest. He is going to be managing, or defending the church or hunting down a level 20 Ur-Priest.

    You are worth exactly as much as an opponent of your CR. If they send someone stronger then that after you, they will not have the resources to attempt some other important objective.

    Which is better DMing:

    1) An Astral Deva flies around invisible and then tracks you down and Holy Words you, you die. Meanwhile, Vecna, who was smart enough to not go Overkill against an Ur-Priest, Killed the injured Cleric that the Deva should have been defending.

    Net loss for the people who killed you, oh and your dead.

    2) Astral Deva manages to keep injured Cleric alive, in several levels maybe you'll get to kill that Cleric, in the mean time a couple Justice Archons showed up and you killed them.

    The Church is still alive and strong, oh and you are still alive to, hey look the campaign isn't over.


    Also, I like how no one actually answered my question about Balors and Clerics.

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    Why would the church bother sending the Justice Archons then? Why would it send anyone if they haven't got better than fair odds of actually winning the fight? If they haven't, which if they're CR equivalent they don't, then it's jut meaninglessly sacrificing minions for no gain. You'd send someone capable of getting the job done. If they prove stronger than you expected and win anyway, then you adjust your estimation of their strength and send someone stronger.
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    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2008-11-14 at 09:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycar View Post
    Throwing an unwinnable encounter at the party is NOT bad GMing. It's right there, in the RAW. Throwing an unwinnable AND UNESCAPABLE encounter at the party is.
    Likewise, allowing the PC's to throw themselves at an unwinnable and unescable encounter isn't bad GMing either. They should have that choice open to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinotaur View Post
    2) Enemy organizations will refrain from using an opponent that is too high CR because every organization has a million things to do at once.
    No, they'll use as much force as they possibly can, which can easily mean that they'll send someone out who will squash you like a bug. What they're absolutely not going to do is send out something CR unless they have no other choice.

    If the head of the church is a level 20 Cleric, then he is not going to be hunting down a level 10 Ur-Priest. He is going to be managing, or defending the church or hunting down a level 20 Ur-Priest.
    Not so; Since he goes out and deals with level 10 ur-priests, there aren't any level 20 ur-priests... because they've already been dealt with before they had a chance to before they become level 20 ur-priests.

    You are worth exactly as much as an opponent of your CR. If they send someone stronger then that after you, they will not have the resources to attempt some other important objective.
    This is not necessarily true.

    Which is better DMing:
    Neither of them is particularly good or bad DMing. They can both be appropriate choices for a DM to take.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojotech View Post
    If you want any dramatic tension, or to maintain the CR system at all, they'd better. (Unless the Ur Priest is stomping them easily, then you should up the CR until it's fair.) It's incredibly anticlimactic for the GM to go "The omnipotent opponent you are facing has realized you'll be a threat later, so he's sending his Initiate of the Seven Fold Veils after you. He's 10 levels higher than you." or something like that. It's the same reason why the Batman never just shoots the Joker, or why the Bond Villain always places our spyful hero in a death trap. Because just killing him is not dramatic or heroic at all.
    So your telling me there is no dramatic tension in the players doing everything in their power to escape/fight an overpowering force? I think you need to re-read alot of books. V was all about a morally grey individual fighting an oppressive regime. Lord of the Rings had multiple forces hunting those poor little almost powerless Hobbits. These are powerful stories that can only be told when using opponents that the players cannot just walk up to and defeat.

    Though I guess if your player's only reaction to a challenge such as this is to attempt to fight it in a one on one fight you should stay away from it. They will inevetably fail, and then it will obivously be your fault that they didnt think up a different course of action.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinotaur View Post
    Um. You can't run away from Higher CR enemies. Especially since they are apparently scry/teleport ambushing you all the time according to previous posters.

    Not that you can run away normally, since if you don't have teleport, (which you don't at level 10) they can run you down on their mounts/with their own spells.

    Running away doesn't really work pre teleport.
    Y'know, I was just going to keep quiet but now I'm just annoyed. I don't know about the other people who have said Ur-priests are likely to be hunted by high CR encounters but I sure as hell didn't mean..

    God A:Gah! Someone is stealing my power! Quick, send a Solar to kill that level six guy!

    No. I meant gods, angels, devils, etcs are usually very intelligent people. Beyond what we have an accurate example of IRL. Do you think a Super Genius is going to keep sending mooks after somebody who routinely trashes them? No, they are going to upgrade to the next step up. Well...what happens when they keep getting trashed (CR proper encounters)? Obviously just going up one step ain't gonna work. They'll skip one or two and see the results. That's what I meant so don't try and say I said 'Look! Ur-priest, teleport ambush him with the best we've got!' because that'd be wrong and lying.

    And that's mostly what I meant JackSmith..the perfect disguise don't exist. The REALLY good disguise only needs to fail once or come up against an abnormally high sense motive/knowledge religion check before people begin catching wise. This is, of course, assuming that the entire school of divination can't pick out a couple of Ur-priests.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycar View Post
    Of course, in german the 'U' gets pronounced like the 'ou' in 'you', so that's a bit like 'How do you pronounce potatoe?' 'Kartoffel.'
    For a second I parsed that sentence as you saying that the U in Ur was pronounced with an umlaut.

    Which admittedly, would make it sound hilariously bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    Why would the church bother sending the Justice Archons then? Why would it send anyone if they haven't got better than fair odds of actually winning the fight? If they haven't, which if they're CR equivalent they don't, then it's jut meaninglessly sacrificing minions for no gain. You'd send someone capable of getting the job done. If they prove stronger than you expected and win anyway, then you adjust your estimation of their strength and send someone stronger.
    Maybe because they think the Justice Archons have a chance. Maybe because Ur-Priest number 207 is not as big a threat to them as the Cleric of Vecna?

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    So just to be clear. You used to agree with me, but now you don't because even though my position hasn't changed, I have become meaner when faced with multitudes of people who claim it's okay to RFED a group just because of a class selection? But no change in how right I am, just my personality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayabalard View Post
    Neither of them is particularly good or bad DMing. They can both be appropriate choices for a DM to take.
    This is only aimed at sane normal people who want to have. I don't care if you think that arbitrarily killing your entire party just for your personal entertainment is good DMing. {Scrubbed}

    Quote Originally Posted by BrainFreeze View Post
    Lord of the Rings had multiple forces hunting those poor little almost powerless Hobbits. These are powerful stories that can only be told when using opponents that the players cannot just walk up to and defeat.
    I don't think it's possible to emphasize this enough: D&D is not lord of the rings, and you need to find another game if that's what you want.

    Sauron was a level 20 Fighter with no magic items, and Frodo/Bilbo ect where level 3 Rogues with a ring of invisibility.

    If Sauron had cast scy, followed by teleport, LotR would suck, just like any D&D campaign will that is based upon being on the run from high level spellcasters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    I meant gods, angels, devils, etcs are usually very intelligent people. Beyond what we have an accurate example of IRL. Do you think a Super Genius is going to keep sending mooks after somebody who routinely trashes them? No, they are going to upgrade to the next step up. Well...what happens when they keep getting trashed (CR proper encounters)? Obviously just going up one step ain't gonna work. They'll skip one or two and see the results. That's what I meant so don't try and say I said 'Look! Ur-priest, teleport ambush him with the best we've got!' because that'd be wrong and lying.
    Upgrading two steps is called sending a Solar against a level 14 party.

    CRs are:
    Astral Deva/Hound Archon Hero 14
    Planetar 16
    Solar 22.

    If you are upgrading two steps from the Astral Deva whole failed to kill the level 14 character (or level 10 party, although, Astral Devas actually always win against level 10 Evil parties) Then you are going to send a Solar Next, and you are going to send it after at level 15 character.

    Tell you what, I'll run a challenge in which level 20 Clerics of every Deity are constantly Divining for Ur-Priests instead of actually advancing their deities cause. You start at whatever level you take your first level of Ur-Priest, they will send a CR enemy. Then another one. Then a Stronger one but you'll have leveled. And then they'll upgrade 2 steps, and send a Planetar at your level 10 character and kill you dead.

    All of this is exactly the same as the Paladin discussion earlier. Demons and Devils and Lichs are super intelligent too, why do they keep sending people that you can beat? Why doesn't every party die instantly upon existing because all the forces of evil are constantly divining for them and killing them? A) Because that's not a fun game when level 1 parties get Balor jumped. B) Because those high level characters and monsters have high level threats and monsters to deal with. And if they waste all their time tracking down an Ur-Priest 5 levels lower then them and killing him, then a Balor is going to take advantage of the situation to raze six churches and slaughter all the Clerics inside.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2008-11-14 at 09:39 PM.

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    However if they wait for the ur-priest to get to level 20 and they have to take care of him then, there's still nothing stopping that balor from screwing them over in the fuss.
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    for "realism" (Verisimilitude?) some opponents must be the sort of things you run away from. even generating them randomly, some will be a little too powerful.

    Picking "Now" as time to drop in some monsters or clerics out to kill the Ur-priest isn't a bad thing- as long as its fair- He should have opportunity to run and hide- an "On the run" campaign can work, done right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinotaur View Post
    I don't think it's possible to emphasize this enough: D&D is not lord of the rings, and you need to find another game if that's what you want.

    Sauron was a level 20 Fighter with no magic items, and Frodo/Bilbo ect where level 3 Rogues with a ring of invisibility.

    If Sauron had cast scy, followed by teleport, LotR would suck, just like any D&D campaign will that is based upon being on the run from high level spellcasters.
    And so we should skip out on an entire line of promissing stories because in YOUR opinion the system is not capable of handling them. I'm sorry no, if you are incapable of finding a way for it to work that is just fine for YOUR game.

    Though I guess playing in one of your games would be compforting due to the fact that we would very rarely be confronted with challenges that would be difficult to overcome. Mass murder here I come, they wont send anyone after me more then 2-3 CRs over mine so this should be easy.

    This method of thought breaks continunity, and paints all the NPCs in the world as idiots that dont understand the concept of damage control.
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    I love that people seem to think that running is viable. Scry&Die is such a horrid tactic because it can slaughter anyone without massive defenses before they can react. And in a world with spell slots, if you're level 10 you're probably only going to have one teleport. A higher level can move faster and teleport more. Running isn't viable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinotaur View Post
    I'm only talking to people who actually want to have a fun game of D&D for everyone, not just killer DM *******.
    Tone down the melodrama a bit, eh?

    I don't think it's possible to emphasize this enough: D&D is not lord of the rings, and you need to find another game if that's what you want.
    It doesn't really matter how much you emphasize it, you're simply incorrect.

    D&D is not just the game as Vinotaur likes to play it; someone playing a lord of the rings style game using D&D is not doing it wrong; nor do they need to find another game. D&D can do a wide variety of gaming styles.
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    Default Re: The Ur-Priest

    Lord of Madness, for more horrific campaigns, tells us that first encounter should be very hard- PCs should run away, then take on weaker minions of Big Bad, before a difficult end of campaign showdown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Lord of Madness, for more horrific campaigns, tells us that first encounter should be very hard- PCs should run away, then take on weaker minions of Big Bad, before a difficult end of campaign showdown.
    I just don't see how running is possible without houserules.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    I just don't see how running is possible without houserules.
    The Game moves at the Speed of Plot. If the plot needs the PCs escape, then the PCs (through some sort of miracle, if need be) can escape. If the plot says there is no escape this time, then even a miracle can't save them.

    Remember all that talk of DM-Fudging? That doesn't just apply to dice. Maybe the lich expended all his divinations on finding out where The Priceless Orb of World Domination exactly is, and the PCs fortuitously happened to run into him that day. Maybe they're not the first party to show up today--"That's not dust you're walking in, it's disintegrated adventurers." Maybe the villain's on an ego trip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    The Game moves at the Speed of Plot. If the plot needs the PCs escape, then the PCs (through some sort of miracle, if need be) can escape. If the plot says there is no escape this time, then even a miracle can't save them.

    Remember all that talk of DM-Fudging? That doesn't just apply to dice. Maybe the lich expended all his divinations on finding out where The Priceless Orb of World Domination exactly is, and the PCs fortuitously happened to run into him that day. Maybe they're not the first party to show up today--"That's not dust you're walking in, it's disintegrated adventurers." Maybe the villain's on an ego trip.
    I'm talking about running on a round-by-round basis. One where One where the party is attacked by overwhelming force and needs to flee. Both sides have the same speed, most likely, so without one guy holding them off(and dying/being captured) 3.5 doesn't have a way to escape.
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    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: The Ur-Priest

    Okay, yeah that there is true. Unless some poor schmuck makes a diversion or obstacle (wall spells work nicely), you're boned.

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: The Ur-Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    I just don't see how running is possible without houserules.
    Armies move at the pace of their armored members. Large creatures can't fit in small spaces. Haste. Horses walk slowly up mountains. Mummies have 20' speed. Batman has to stop and save the kid you just pushed off a building. Vampires fear the rising sun. Moriarty isn't dumb enough to leave his lair unprotected when the intruders have already fled. You made sure to buy the fastest horse in town before you hustled anyone.

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: The Ur-Priest

    the big whatsit, whether Cthulhu or something else, is territorial but doesn't pursue past a certain distance.

    now angels/inevitables on a mission, unless you can distract them somehow, yes, you have a problem "And it absolutely will not stop."

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The Ur-Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinotaur View Post
    Why doesn't every party die instantly upon existing because all the forces of evil are constantly divining for them and killing them? A) Because that's not a fun game when level 1 parties get Balor jumped.
    That's why, period. Seriously, the only reason why the game called D&D is designed the way it is, is so that people have fun playing it.

    Defeating the Evil Overlord at the end of a long, rewarding campaign is a very nice thing to experience.

    Getting curb-stomed by an immature prick of a killer Gm is not.

    You seem to be getting something mixed up here: The problem is not the class Ur-Priest having fluff about him being a hunted man (or woman), it is a bad GM.

    Previous posters have already summed it up: If the GM plays fair, it does not matter if the class has built-in enemies. They just have to be reasonable for the party to handle. Of course, somtimes the party is just out of their league and has to flee or *gasp* even surrender!

    That's right, surrender. Blasphemous, I know.

    But if the GM is just going to abuse you for a powertrip, a class like the Ur-Priest just hands him a few extra excused to mess with you on a silver platter.

    Also, some people have asked why a god should even bother with persecuting (or prosecuting, in the case of lawful gods ) Ur-Priests, they do only ever siphon of a totally insignificant amount of divine power after all. Is it really worth to get your worshippers up in arms about this?

    You have to understand the real threat the very existance of even a single Ur-Priest poses to the gods: He threatens their power base! Gods gain power from the worship of their followers/believers. A gods power derives from his ability to make people worship him.

    A good god does it by doing nice things for his followers: 'Worship me and your harvests shall be bountifull and your daughters beautifull.' Something like this.

    Evil gods take a slightly different approach: 'Worship me. Or else! Would be a shame if a meteor strike would wipe out that lovely little village of yours. Or a plague of locusts. Or the plague. Or... well, you get the idea. Now down on your knees and start praying. Oh and I want a virgin sacrifice too. Hop to it.'

    Either way, the more people they can convince to/bully into worshipping them, the more powerful they become.

    Why do they share some of their power with some chosen believers? Because, even while gods are, well, gods, they can't be omnipresent. Give some people a measure of your power in exchange for spreading their faith and thus generating more worshippers = more power for the god.

    Spoiler
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    Incidentially this is why a GM ought to make sure the cleric plays up to his chosen domains. For a god granting a cleric spells is an investment. He invests divine power into his clerics so that this will pay dividends in the form of more worshippers. If the cleric does not increase the god's power, the god should simply stop pouring down divine energy into a bottomless barrel.

    An evil god should also make an example about not tolerating failure out of said cleric.


    Now enter the Ur-Priest: This guy gets divine power without worshipping (or sucking up to) any gods. He just takes it.

    Now imagine if that example catches on: People draining the power of the gods without giving back anything in return. The gods would lose worshippers and thus power and get leeched off by more and more Ur-Priests!

    Can you see where this is going?

    Good, then you know why every god is out to destroy these guys. Because it is of vital interest for them to do so! The very existance of the Ur-Priests threaten the existance of the gods!

    And so no god will be mollified by an Ur-Priest who goes 'But I stole power from that other god too! Your own arch-enemy! So it's really a zero-sum blasphemy, see?'

    Besides, evil gods will crush you on principle because you make them look bad in the eyes of others, if they don't rub you out for stealing from them.

    EDIT: (About fleeing from an overwhelming encounter.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    Okay, yeah that there is true. Unless some poor schmuck makes a diversion or obstacle (wall spells work nicely), you're boned.
    Don't forget the humble bag of caltrops. Or just tossing down some rations in front of the starved war-dogs. A simple smokestick (or Obscuring Mist spell) can break LOS/LOE to enemy casters. And archers are also boned if they can't see what they are supposed to shoot.

    Lycar
    Last edited by Lycar; 2008-11-14 at 02:41 PM.
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    Bah. Lycar is absolutely right.

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: The Ur-Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    However if they wait for the ur-priest to get to level 20 and they have to take care of him then, there's still nothing stopping that balor from screwing them over in the fuss.
    Why are they even taking care of him in the first place. They should be more concerned about things that actually matter to them. Like advancing their causes, and protecting their people instead of hunting down every evil person in existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    for "realism" (Verisimilitude?) some opponents must be the sort of things you run away from. even generating them randomly, some will be a little too powerful.

    Picking "Now" as time to drop in some monsters or clerics out to kill the Ur-priest isn't a bad thing- as long as its fair- He should have opportunity to run and hide- an "On the run" campaign can work, done right.
    No, the enemies you run into will never be too strong for you to deal with, because if they are, you die. Period. Because you can't run away from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrainFreeze View Post
    And so we should skip out on an entire line of promissing stories because in YOUR opinion the system is not capable of handling them. I'm sorry no, if you are incapable of finding a way for it to work that is just fine for YOUR game.
    No, we skip out on whole series of games because they do not work using the D&D rules. If you want to play those games you find a game that has rules that support those actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayabalard View Post
    It doesn't really matter how much you emphasize it, you're simply incorrect.

    D&D is not just the game as Vinotaur likes to play it; someone playing a lord of the rings style game using D&D is not doing it wrong; nor do they need to find another game. D&D can do a wide variety of gaming styles.
    Yes they are. Because you can't play a Lord Of the Rings style game in D&D without first declaring that 12 classes are completely off limits and don't even exist in the world, along with 3/4ths of the MM.

    You aren't playing D&D. If you try to play without banning all those things then your entire party will TPK in a day. Because one of the hundreds of more powerful people will cast a damn spell that teleports them adjacent, and then when they run away, that more powerful enemy will run faster and kill them all in one hit.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: The Ur-Priest

    not every monster is super-persistant.

    Elder Evils made it clear just being able to be a cleric of "a cause" was a dire secret that the deities were really angry about getting into general knowledge. Tome of Magic made Good and Evil churches team up against Binders who don't even wield divine magic.

    if the party has items of rapid escape- carpet of flying, wings, etc, the spellcaster may not be equipped to pursue them. Not every world is tippyland with every wizard using Teleport to the best of their ability. It might even be on prohibit list of specialist wizard.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: The Ur-Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycar View Post
    You seem to be getting something mixed up here: The problem is not the class Ur-Priest having fluff about him being a hunted man (or woman), it is a bad GM.
    I think you are confused. I said that Ur-Priests having enemies is not a problem at all, because everyone has enemies. I then said that your enemies will be of the same difficulty whether you are an Ur-Priest or a Cleric, and so, it's fine.

    Everyone else said that Ur-Priests have to fight tougher people the Clerics, because they have enemies, as if every cleric ever (and every D&D character) didn't have enemies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycar View Post
    Previous posters have already summed it up: If the GM plays fair, it does not matter if the class has built-in enemies. They just have to be reasonable for the party to handle.
    Those other posters are me. I'm the one that first said if the DM plays fair it does not matter. Everyone I've been arguing against has been saying that DMs are under an obligation to not play fair when you choose Ur-Priest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycar View Post
    You have to understand the real threat the very existance of even a single Ur-Priest poses to the gods: He threatens their power base! Gods gain power from the worship of their followers/believers. A gods power derives from his ability to make people worship him.

    A good god does it by doing nice things for his followers: 'Worship me and your harvests shall be bountifull and your daughters beautifull.' Something like this.

    Evil gods take a slightly different approach: 'Worship me. Or else! Would be a shame if a meteor strike would wipe out that lovely little village of yours. Or a plague of locusts. Or the plague. Or... well, you get the idea. Now down on your knees and start praying. Oh and I want a virgin sacrifice too. Hop to it.'

    Either way, the more people they can convince to/bully into worshipping them, the more powerful they become.

    Why do they share some of their power with some chosen believers? Because, even while gods are, well, gods, they can't be omnipresent. Give some people a measure of your power in exchange for spreading their faith and thus generating more worshippers = more power for the god.
    1) You keep getting good and evil in D&D confused with your own conceptions of good and evil. Evil gods give power, they don't threaten or bully. Evil Gods are pretty much exactly like good Gods except they have evil goals.

    2) You know who's an even bigger threat to Heronious's power? Hextor! And a Cleric of Hextor.

    There is no reason for Heronious to be more concerned about all his Clerics becoming Ur-Priests then he is about all his Clerics becoming Clerics of Hextor. Heck, he's more worried about the second because it actually happens a lot.

    Ur-Priests give people hope to have magical powers without Gods? Yeah, they already have those, they are called Wizards and they have managed to go for a long damn time without Cleric hit squads aimed at them.

    Here's some further analysis just for fun:

    1) Gods are afraid everyone will become an Ur-Priest.
    2) Ur-Priests must be trained by other Ur-Priests.
    3) If Everyone was an Ur-Priest and stopped believing in Gods, the Gods would cease to exist.
    4) If the gods ceased, Ur-Priests would have no power.

    Therefore, Gods can trust the Ur-Priests themselves to make sure that people keep believing in Gods.

    Heck, I guess when those Ur-Priests attribute their powers to Pelor, they mean it, because the more people believe in Pelor, the more power they get. The only difference is that if Pelor ever sends a smite crew after them, they can fight it off and tell the next town about the Glories of Vecna to punish him.

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