Rules Questions

[apegamer]

We hope the rules are clear, concise and complete, but there will inevitably be some questions. Use this topic to ask away, and between Rich and me, we'll get the questions answered. The answers will eventually become the basis for a FAQ.

[Justin_Miller]

So... does this mean the rules are posted somewhere?

[Gorbash Kazdar]

So... does this mean the rules are posted somewhere?

More for when you (as in the universal you) get ahold of a copy and run into something that appears not to be covered by the rules, given the unique situation you encountered. ;)

[apegamer]

Nope, the rules aren't posted yet. However, 300ish people out there have the game after GenCon.

[Video]

Two questions, and forgive me as I'm at work and don't have the cards in front of me:

1.) One of Durkon's Schticks is missing it's win result. It is the one with a blindfolded, drunk Thor throwing lightnign bolts. In our game we assumed it was 1 wound, but clarificationw ould be nice.

2.) If you use the Screw This! card that allows you to negate abilities, how does this work for Leaders? Is the +1 battle size gone the entire time, or will a player add a monster after this turn?

I think that's all we've got for right now, enjoying the game otherwise!

[apegamer]

Two questions, and forgive me as I'm at work and don't have the cards in front of me:

1.) One of Durkon's Schticks is missing it's win result. It is the one with a blindfolded, drunk Thor throwing lightnign bolts. In our game we assumed it was 1 wound, but clarificationw ould be nice.

One of the Thor's Lightning cards is missing the Result text. The result is 'Foe loses 1 Wound', like the other Thor's Lightning.

2.) If you use the Screw This! card that allows you to negate abilities, how does this work for Leaders? Is the +1 battle size gone the entire time, or will a player add a monster after this turn?

Great question! The Screw This! card you're referring to is 'I Forgot They Could Do That'. The card says that you can eliminate one of the effects on the monster card until the end of turn. Some effects, like Leader, only really take effect as the card is played.

The Leader ablility says that the Battle Size is +1, meaning that the room gets one more monster played in it than would normally be played. 'If I Forgot They Could Do That' is played on the turn that the Leader card was put into play, then the battle size is reduced accordingly (give the extra card(s) back to the person who laid them until the battle size is correct. The battle size is locked after player begins battling the monster. It cannot be changed on that turn, nor on future turns.

Thinking about it, there's probably more I can say about the Leader ability, but it's late and that's a discussion for another day.

[Video]

Thanks for the answer, that's how we played both of the cards, so good to see we did it right.

I'll be sure to post up any more questions :)

[Video]

Got another:

Is loot with the OotS emblam considered loot that is "drooled over" for all players (aka - Can two players pass something back and forth like Dragon Horde to continually give each other +4 bonuses)? Does it count for loot for schtick trade-ins and Xykon's lair entry?

Thanks again :)

[Phantom]

Can you please explain how to use Elan's Schtick "Poorly Planned Illusion"? I'm confused as to whether the creature dropps teh phat lewts or not. What leads me to this confusion is the use of the word "defeated" in the effects text.

Thanks.

[caestepp]

...I'm confused as to whether the creature dropps teh phat lewts or not. What leads me to this confusion is the use of the word "defeated" in the effects text.

Elan's "Poorly-Planned Illusion" shtick does not cause a wound to the affected monsters. Therefore the monsters are not killed and they do not drop any loot in the room. Elan simply moves them to an adjacent room.

If loot was already dropped in the room as a result of a previous battle, that loot will now be left unguarded in the room. At this point, since Elan is responsible for clearing the room of the last monster, he would have the option of picking up 2 loot (the same as when someone kills the last monster in a room).

Use of the term "defeated" seems appropriate since Elan is indeed successful in his battle roll and is therefore able to inflict his will upon the monsters by forcing them to move to an adjacent room.

[caestepp]

Got another:

Is loot with the OotS emblam considered loot that is "drooled over" for all players (aka - Can two players pass something back and forth like Dragon Horde to continually give each other +4 bonuses)? Does it count for loot for schtick trade-ins and Xykon's lair entry?

Yes. The OOTS emblem is a wild-card that indicates that all of the characters drool over that loot.

Yes. Two players can pass an item back and forth between themselves. This is not limited to loot containing the wild card icon. Take a loot that has 1 Roy and 1 V face for example. The players playing those two characters could also exchange that loot back and forth.

Yes. You can use loot containing the OOTS emblem just like you would any other loot. Each OOTS emblem always counts as one face.

[caestepp]

Can you give more than one loot per encounter to have more than one person help you per encounter (or give more than one loot to the same person to just increase their bonus)? If there are two monsters in the room and you use a loot to have a person help you with the first one, do you still get that bonus for the second one?

Yes, you can give more than one loot to other players in return for assistance with a battle. You can give multiple loot to the same person or you can give one or more loot to each of several different players.

The only limitation is that in PvP battles, an assisting player can only help one of the two players in the battle. You can't assist both sides.

Assistance is only good for a single battle (ie. a single die roll). If you decide to attack the next monster in the stack you have to offer new loot in order to gain assistance.

[Argus]

1) How many Bragging Points is the defeat of Xykon worth? Page 27 specifies 5, but page 29 specifies 2*lvl.

2) Do the monster cards in the Xykon Deck have the red X symbol? Page 27 states that they do not, but ....

[apegamer]

First, a big Thank You to Craig (Krago) for fielding some of these questions. Craig was one of the primary playtesters for the game and also the hatcher of many of the game's cooler ideas. Those of you at GenCon might have met Craig giving demos of the game.

1) How many Bragging Points is the defeat of Xykon worth? Page 27 specifies 5, but page 29 specifies 2*lvl.

2) Do the monster cards in the Xykon Deck have the red X symbol? Page 27 states that they do not, but ....

The defeat of Xykon is worth 2 * level. The 5 points is a typo.

We need to talk about whether monsters on the Xykon level provide XP. We talked about this at length, and thought we'd come to a conclusion, but unfortunately the final result was confusion on this point in the rules.

[apegamer]

I have another question:

Roy has a Shtick that lets him flip another other person's Shtick. However, it does not specifiy when on the card I he can do this. Can I do it after someone has paid loot to another person to get them to help? If so, this Shtick seems unbalanced because I could make people not only lose combat but pay loot for no benefit.

The intent of this shtick (Party Leader Veto) was for it to be used during Roy's turn. It should therefore include the text "At the start of your turn..."

[Argus]

In a collapsing dungeon, the rule about removing a room with any players still in it seems odd.

You may not remove a room with any players still in it unless there are no rooms without players in them remaining on the lowest floor of the dungeon, or unless the only room without players in it is the room with the stairs up.

If you look at the example on page 29, it seems that the removal of room 10B is forbidden due to the empty non-stair rooms on the floor: The Chasm of Unnecessary Cliffs, Dungeon Corridor, and A Dark Room.

For that matter, if a floor has more than one set of stairs leading down to it, it seems that it would be difficult to remove a room once that floor is reduced to the rooms below and between the stairs.

[apegamer]

In a collapsing dungeon, the rule about removing a room with any players still in it seems odd.

If you look at the example on page 29, it seems that the removal of room 10B is forbidden due to the empty non-stair rooms on the floor: The Chasm of Unnecessary Cliffs, Dungeon Corridor, and A Dark Room.

For that matter, if a floor has more than one set of stairs leading down to it, it seems that it would be difficult to remove a room once that floor is reduced to the rooms below and between the stairs.

Yes, there appears to be a problem with part of the example. At the end of the example on page 29, Belkar exits the dungeon and removes room 10B. The only valid room for Belkar to have removed is actually the Dark Room.

The rules say that you can only remove rooms from the left or the right, so removing the Chasm of Unnecessary Cliffs or the Dungeon Corridor would not be an option. Removing a room from the middle might cut off a character's 'escape route', and it therefore illegal.

Note too that there may sometimes be more than a single room on a level with stairs. This is fine - continue removing rooms from either the right or the left, but leave one set of stairs on the level to escape from.

[Argus]

Okay, and to make sure I understand the bit about the left edge or right edge:

Assume that the first level had eight rooms labelled A-H, it had stairs going down from 1B and 1G, and the second level ended up with two disconnected sections explored: A-C and F-H. Would A, C, F, and H all be permissible for removal as long as they aren't occupied by players? (Note that allowing just A or H might lead to a problem once those two are gone.)

[Moebius]

- The "I Forgot They Could Do That" Screw This! Card has already been mentioned. Can it negate a support ability?
(example: Xykon gets an 'Assist' Support from every Goblin and Undead on his floor, giving him +2 A/D for each such monster on his floor - which can climb up pretty high, since he has Horde as well. Can the Screw This! card negate that whole bonus?)

- Roy's Fearless Leader Schtick lets him, whenever he helps in a battle, heal 1 wound or unflip one flipped schtick at the end of the battle. Is that on him, the player he helped, or either?

[red_eagle123]

Well, I picked up a copy of the game at GenCon, and got a chance to play it with 4 other friends yesterday.

Firstly, we started off with the simplest setting, which stated a ~4 hour game. Taking into account learning how to play, and all, I was thinking maybe 5 hours. We wound up playing for 7.5 hours before finally finishing the game. And this is with only one room on lvl 3...

The one rules question I have (other than those already directly answered), is the wording of Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion. It states in the results that player 'MAY' move a monster to an adjacent room. We all took that to mean that it was an optional effect, and that the Elan player could either defeat the monster or move the monster.

Based on an earlier answer, I'm guessing this was incorrect? If so I would suggest a change of the wording on those cards, or an errata at least.

[The Giant]

- The "I Forgot They Could Do That" Screw This! Card has already been mentioned. Can it negate a support ability?
(example: Xykon gets an 'Assist' Support from every Goblin and Undead on his floor, giving him +2 A/D for each such monster on his floor - which can climb up pretty high, since he has Horde as well. Can the Screw This! card negate that whole bonus?)

Yes, but in the case of a monster with two Support abilities, they are considered separately. So you could negate Horde or Assist, but not both. This is, incidentally, one of the best uses of this particular card and can be essential in breaking up very powerful clumps of monsters.

-- Roy's Fearless Leader Schtick lets him, whenever he helps in a battle, heal 1 wound or unflip one flipped schtick at the end of the battle. Is that on him, the player he helped, or either?

The wounds healed or shticks unflipped must be Roy's. As a rule of thumb, if you can affect another player's wounds or shticks with a card, it specifically says something like "belonging to any player".

[The Giant]

The one rules question I have (other than those already directly answered), is the wording of Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion. It states in the results that player 'MAY' move a monster to an adjacent room. We all took that to mean that it was an optional effect, and that the Elan player could either defeat the monster or move the monster.

You may choose not to move the monster, yes. However, you cannot choose to kill the monster, because the result text does not specifically allow you to cause any Wounds. If you don't move a monster, it just stays in the room as if it were a draw.

Why he would choose to use the shtick and not take advantage of its movement capabilities is up to the player; I can think of several scenarios. For example, you might want to move Monster A to another dungeon floor (if stairs are present) to weaken a Support-using Monster B for your Attack on your next turn. So you might choose to move Monster A, and not Monster B. Remember that PPI is an area effect, so you can pick and choose which monsters you move and where.

The important point is, you CANNOT cause a Wound with a Battle Shtick unless it specifically says it can cause a Wound. PPI doesn't say that, so it can't be used to kill monsters.

So the card is technically correct as-is, but it is definitely one for the FAQ, as on the surface, it could seem confusing.

[Moebius]

Yes, but in the case of a monster with two Support abilities, they are considered separately. So you could negate Horde or Assist, but not both. This is, incidentally, one of the best uses of this particular card and can be essential in breaking up very powerful clumps of monsters.

Yep... especially since, if I read Horde correctly, it can lead to some large stacks. For example, a monster with Support:Goblin/Horde could theoretically have every Goblin in the deck stacked under him.

Another question: Monsters with the Flying ability can only be battled with a Shtick with Range > 0. Now, if the player is in the same room with the Flying monster, is it still considered a Range 0 attack for other purposes? (example: Can Haley Sneak Attack flying monsters?)

[Argus]

Another question: Monsters with the Flying ability can only be battled with a Shtick with Range > 0. Now, if the player is in the same room with the Flying monster, is it still considered a Range 0 attack for other purposes? (example: Can Haley Sneak Attack flying monsters?)

If you and a Monster or other player are in the same room, you are at Range 0; you may use shticks with a Range value of 0 to battle them.

You may use shticks with a Range greater than 0 (often abbreviated "Range > 0") against a foe even while in the same room with that foe.

You NEVER make a Ranged Attack at a foe at Range 0.

And Sneak Attack isn't a Battle Shtick, so Flying doesn't interfere with it.

[caestepp]

One more example regarding flying monsters and range:

If Belkar is in a battle with a flying creature, he could use his "Twin Daggers of Doom" shtick coupled with his "Leaping Attack" shtick to combat this creature.

By default, the "Twin Daggers of Doom" shtick only has a range of 0, but when combined with the "Leaping Attack" shtick, Belkar's "Twin Daggers of Doom" gains a +1 to its range. This allows Belkar to attack a flying creature when standing in the same room with it.

[Argus]

Elven Senses... Tingling!

Since stairs are found on a low roll, would someone really want to use this as printed?

[apegamer]

Elven Senses... Tingling!

Since stairs are found on a low roll, would someone really want to use this as printed?

Heh, probably not. As I'm sure you've guessed, the intent was to add +2 to the roll needed, not to the roll itself.

So with one instance of the shtick in play, V needs a 5 or less.

[apegamer]

Another question:

The "Screw This" that lets me pick up all of the loot in the room after I defeat the last monster could be used in conjunction with Haley's Schitck that lets her choose which loot she takes, right? Then one could look through all the loot in the room an only take what they want?

You bet! The Screw This! card you're talking about is Gimme! Gimme! GIMME! which let's you take the entire stack of loot. Haley's shtick Greed is Good lets her look a a pile of loot and take only the cards that she wants.

Sweet, huh?

[apegamer]

In the rules it says that when two players battle, the defending player gets to offer loot for help to one player first, then the attacker and back and forth. Can the defending player offer one loot to a person, then after the attacker offers loot to another person, offer more loot to the first person they gave loot to?

Can the defender (or attacker) offer multiple loots at the same time to the same person?

When offering loot to another PLAYER, the player can hear offers from both sides before accepting.

The back-and-forth comes into play when offering loot to NPC's. Since each player (and NPC) can only accept loot from one player, and since NPC's aren't as good at discerning who is making a better offer, they will automatically help the first person offering them loot. The other player cannot offer more loot to that NPC, but the same player MAY offer more loot, if desired.

Haley's Schtick that allows her to look through the loot pile and choose which loots to take seems oddly worded. It says if there are one or more loots in the room she may do this, however it also implies that if there is a stack of only traps then a trap must be spung. However, the rules suggest that a player can choose not to take loot in the room after beating monsters. If you use this Schtick, do you have to take one or two loots from the room, or can you choose to take no loot? If you have to take loot than what is the point of specifically saying that you can use the card if there is one loot in the room?

Haley may choose to NOT take loot when using the Greed is Good shtick, if she sees that some of the loot are traps. She may take the traps if she chooses; but that's likely only going to happen if she's got the Disarm shtick, too.

The rules say that you cannot give an NPC a loot to help you if that loot is drooled over by a current player in the game. What if the loot is drooled over by me and an NPC, can I still not give the NPC the loot? The rules also indicate that I cannot trade a loot away that I drool over, which might make my last question moot. However, I bring this up because in your FAQ you say that a player can give loot to another player even if the player giving it away would drool over it.

You can give loot to an NPC if your picture is on it. However, giving it to the NPC essentially removes it from the game, and then it cannot be used to trade in for shticks.

The Schitck rules say that after you turn in monsters with enough XP for a new Schtick you take three from the top and choose one, while putting the remaining two at the bottom of the deck. Does that mean that you cannot shuffle the deck after you did this, since it seems the remaining two are supposed to be at the bottom?

The two unselected shticks go to the bottom of your deck, to be seen only after all of the other shticks have been cycled through. The shtick deck is not shuffled, but that DOES give me an idea for the expansion!

What happens if people use up all of the dungeon room tiles? Lets say people just arent able to find the stares down for a while on botht he first and second floors. And now all the dungeon tile shave been used, but they havent reached the third floor yet. What do you do when you move to a new room or do find the stares to the third floor? Should there be a maximum floor size to keep this from being a problem?

There can be up to 8 rooms on each dungeon level, though fewer if table space is restrictive. Note that you can search rooms multiple times (though only once on your turn.) If someone doesn't find stairs in a room, then the next person moving into the room can search again, so long as there are no monsters there.

[Madame_Zelia]

This might be more commentary than rules, so feel free to redirect.

I've played OOTS Adventure game twice now--each session with four players in the 'short' game coming in at betweeen 4 and 5.5 hours. We ended up with 2 players playing the same characters in each (even though we shuffled and randomized the draw) Haley and V being the recurring players.

We love it. And at the same time some things don't quite make sense.

Of our group's experience thus far, I think the loot rules have been a sticking point.

The person playing Haley won and was second in these games, she also had the most loot and loot getting abilities. I think loot is the root of all evil in this game (well everywhere really, if I may be so Marxist!). If you don't have loot you can't get as many schticks or assistance which then
prevents you from further schtick getting and thereby preventing you
from getting down to the later levels. Would allowing 2 loots instead
of one per room get us farther down the line? A thought.

One of our party members suggested that the loot rules be raised by +1 all around. Thus, you could pick up 3 loot after all mobs are vanquished, 2 loots if you are just 'looting' or resting. This would certainly speed up the game considerably. (Speed only being an issue when at 5 hours the player exploiting Ray's schtick flipping errata was just having too much fun).

Another question is whether the loot to schtick ratio in calculating the victory points is appropriate. Should they be equal or should schticks count for more?