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Thread: Rules Questions

  1. - Top - End - #331
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by nosajtpno View Post
    About the Emergency Exit room: It states that the stairs can not be used when fleeing the dungeon. I understand they can't be used when you've taken 4 wounds, but can they be used when the dungeon is collapsing? One of my roommates thinks that that also counts as "fleeing the dungeon".
    Yes, you can use Emergency Exit while the dungeon is collapsing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glug View Post
    I agree with you but for a different reason. The Turn Undead card is an area effect shtick so by the last point on page 18 the combat stops after the shtick is resolved.

    I know that you can target all the undead under Xykon with that trick however it still feels wrong. I can't see the logic that allows the thing with eyes (that has enchanted) to act as the defence score for the monsters (against a fireball if it has the highest defence) whilst Xykon's ability to avoid be turned doesn't allow Xykon (as an undead) to represent the monsters.
    He's right - the 5th bullet under Area Effect Shticks on page 18 clarifies that the stack can be affected, even if the monster itself cannot. Note that Xykon would still count in the number of monsters affected by the Area Effect shtick (if it was V's Fireball instead of Durkon's Turn Undead, for instance.)
    Last edited by apegamer; 2007-05-05 at 11:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by apegamer View Post
    Durkon's Turn Undead cannot be used against Xykon ... (and that) card cannot be used at all during that battle.
    Back on page 4 The Giant says the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Turn Undead specifically says right on the card that you can't use it against Xykon. Treat Xykon as simply not being there for the purpose of using that shtick; the card just ignores him. Note that you CAN use it at Range 0 even if Xykon is the top monster, it just doesn't affect him. Technically, the top monster IS undead, even if it is a monster with a specific immunity to the shtick, making the conditions needed to use the card true. Thus, you can use the shtick.

    Turning Xykon's undead out from under him is a great strategy, by the way. You bypass Xykon's ultrahigh Defense because he cannot be affected by the card!
    Consensus?

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    I'm still waiting for an official answer on the Haley issue. If the Giant or Ape can shed some light on this, I'd appreciate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melange View Post
    Fortunately monsters with obscenly high defense tend to also have hide... Also the other reason they have high defense is that if you just had combat and lost, then when you start your next turn you decide to try and kill it again, now you HAVE to attack since you are battling before moving.
    This isn't true. When you initiate an attack on a monster in the same square, you can choose to attack or defend. If a weapon or magic schtick has a range, it is still not considered a ranged attack when used at range 0, so you still get the choice between attack and defense.

    If you attack a player however, you must always attack.
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    The rules state that you are attacking if:
    -you havent moved yet
    -you are attacking a player
    -you killed a monster and wish to continue you may choose to attack

    All other times you are defending

    It's right there on the back of the rules card. Thus if you are getting into combat with a monster when you start in the room, the first scenario is true and you're attacking

    NOTE: If you want to start a battle by defending againt a monster in your room... you CAN use the Screw This! Card "Surprise" at the beginning of your turn so you are now on the defense... (I Think)
    Last edited by Melange; 2007-05-03 at 09:24 AM. Reason: added note
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    Well, pinch my cheek and call me Susan. Here we've been playing that all wrong, but it's spelt out clearly enough. Thanks.
    Arcade

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melange View Post
    I'm still waiting for an official answer on the Haley issue. If the Giant or Ape can shed some light on this, I'd appreciate.
    Sorry, been VERY busy. I'll look at this thread tonight and get you an answer.

    I read it quickly and my quick, unthought-out answer after probably not understanding the original question is that a good defense for a ranged shtick is good for PvP. But let me read it closer tonight.
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    confused Re: Rules Questions

    I have a question that I might have over looked but anytime i play it seems to me that look is a little over the top. the way i have read the loot cards is there is no limit to asking for help for people ie haley, roy, and elan are on a level with v. V ask all for help giving roy three loot cards (each with two faces), haley two loot (one with three faces, one with two) and elan a loot card (drool factor two) giving a plus 26 in a attack. is this how loot works? or is it one card per person?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lokistang View Post
    I have a question that I might have over looked but anytime i play it seems to me that look is a little over the top. the way i have read the loot cards is there is no limit to asking for help for people ie haley, roy, and elan are on a level with v. V ask all for help giving roy three loot cards (each with two faces), haley two loot (one with three faces, one with two) and elan a loot card (drool factor two) giving a plus 26 in a attack. is this how loot works? or is it one card per person?
    That is how loot works. You have to realize though that getting all of that loot back is pretty tough and likely not worth the big bonus you are getting in return. Maybe if you are fighting Xykon, but that's about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcade View Post
    This isn't true. When you initiate an attack on a monster in the same square, you can choose to attack or defend. If a weapon or magic schtick has a range, it is still not considered a ranged attack when used at range 0, so you still get the choice between attack and defense.

    If you attack a player however, you must always attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melange View Post
    The rules state that you are attacking if:
    -you havent moved yet
    -you are attacking a player
    -you killed a monster and wish to continue you may choose to attack

    All other times you are defending

    It's right there on the back of the rules card. Thus if you are getting into combat with a monster when you start in the room, the first scenario is true and you're attacking

    NOTE: If you want to start a battle by defending againt a monster in your room... you CAN use the Screw This! Card "Surprise" at the beginning of your turn so you are now on the defense... (I Think)
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcade View Post
    Well, pinch my cheek and call me Susan. Here we've been playing that all wrong, but it's spelt out clearly enough. Thanks.
    Actually, Arcade was right the first time. You may always choose to defend against monsters in non-ranged combat. An example is given in the comic provided, 's battle to be specific. He chose to defend against the Cowardly Kobold.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcade View Post
    That is how loot works. You have to realize though that getting all of that loot back is pretty tough and likely not worth the big bonus you are getting in return. Maybe if you are fighting Xykon, but that's about it.
    thank you for the answer, rules where a little unclear the way i read them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melange View Post
    I'm still waiting for an official answer on the Haley issue. If the Giant or Ape can shed some light on this, I'd appreciate.
    It's likely that I'm just being dense, but I don't understand the question. Are you asking why the bonuses don't seem to fit thematically?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptarth View Post
    Back on page 4 The Giant says the opposite.



    Consensus?

    He's right - the 5th bullet under Area Effect Shticks on page 18 clarifies that the stack can be affected, even if the monster itself cannot. Note that Xykon would still count in the number of monsters affected by the Area Effect shtick (if it was V's Fireball instead of Durkon's Turn Undead, for instance.)

    I've edited my response below. I need to start carrying a copy of the rules with me - or stop answering questions unless the rules are in front of me.
    Last edited by apegamer; 2007-05-05 at 11:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Star View Post
    Actually, Arcade was right the first time. You may always choose to defend against monsters in non-ranged combat. An example is given in the comic provided, 's battle to be specific. He chose to defend against the Cowardly Kobold.
    Wait, no! Melange's response below was 100% correct. In the example you use, Elan is fighting the second monster in the room, and so can choose whether he's attacking or defending.

    Also, to answer the question about Surprise, you CAN play it on yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by apegamer View Post
    Wait, no! Melange's response below was 100% correct. In the example you use, Elan is fighting the second monster in the room, and so can choose whether he's attacking or defending.

    Also, to answer the question about Surprise, you CAN play it on yourself.
    Unless I misread what Melange wrote, he seems to be implying that you MUST attack in those situation given. This isn't the case, because unless it's Ranged, Area or PvP, you always have the option of defending.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Star View Post
    Unless I misread what Melange wrote, he seems to be implying that you MUST attack in those situation given. This isn't the case, because unless it's Ranged, Area or PvP, you always have the option of defending.
    To put it another way, if you do not move on your turn, you're attacking the first monster. If you DO move on your turn, you're defending against the first monster. The exception to this is if you move on your turn and you're PvP'ing; in which case you're attacking.

    After the first monster, you can decide whether to attack or defend additional monsters in the room. If you did an attack into another room with a ranged schtick, you CANNOT attack additional monsters.
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  18. - Top - End - #348
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    Since we're on the subject... There's no problem with moving to a safe spot, say a room with a player and no monsters or the safe room in Xykon's Lair (assuming no monsters have been moved there through Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion), and then range attacking. Right?

    An example in the manual says you can, but I'm not sure if there's any actual rules text that gives you that capability.
    Last edited by Theli; 2007-05-06 at 12:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theli View Post
    Since we're on the subject... There's no problem with moving to a safe spot, say a room with a player and no monsters or the safe room in Xykon's Lair (assuming no monsters have been moved there through Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion), and then range attacking. Right?

    An example in the manual says you can, but I'm not sure if there's any actual rules text that gives you that capability.
    You cannot move and make a ranged attack. This is specifically stated in the third bullet under Ranged Attack on page 12. The example on that page shows Haley moving and then attacking Belkar, who's in the same room as her after the movement. In this case she's using a ranged shtick, but it's not a ranged attack, since it's at range 0. In fact, this example specifically points out that Haley cannot attack the creatures at range, because she moved.
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    Oh, right. Not sure why I thought otherwise. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apegamer View Post
    To put it another way, if you do not move on your turn, you're attacking the first monster. If you DO move on your turn, you're defending against the first monster. The exception to this is if you move on your turn and you're PvP'ing; in which case you're attacking. *Snip*
    Hmm, my group has been doing that one wrong. Thanks.
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    Question (only played once and couldnt find a clarification)

    If all Battle Deck cards are in play, in hand or discarded.... what then happens? No new monsters? or is the discard pile reshuffled and put back into play as the battle deck?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melange View Post
    Something about Haley has been bugging me.... Her Longbow and Sneak Attack seem backwards. Her Longbow increases her defense and range, and her sneak attack increases her Attack at range 0. This seems counter intuitive, since you cannot make ranged defenses (unless against the Surprise Screw This card),
    You still can (and often do) use a shtick with Range at Range 0 to Defend against a monster whose room you just entered. If Haley walks into an empty room and someone plays a Black Dragon, she is required to use Defense to fight it, so having a higher Defense on her Longbow is still very helpful.

    The increase in Range, however, is not intended to necessarily be used directly in conjunction with the increase in Defense. Having a second Longbow card thus helps you out when you are defending (by increasing the Defense) OR when you are making a ranged attack (by increasing the Range), and also helps doubly in the rare instance of having to make a ranged defense (such as against another player or against the Surprise! card). It's not counter-intuitive so much as it is multi-functional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melange View Post
    and you really don't want to attack from melee with Haley, the whole point of her is attacking from range...(SNIP) This just seems to make more sense considering how her moves are used and how she is expected to be played...
    Your mistake is that you are assuming you know how she is meant to be played, and then being confused when the cards don't work out that way. Your fundamental assumption, however, is not necessarily correct. Attacking from melee is, in fact, a much stronger option for Haley much of the time, especially if she has multiple Sneak Attacks in play, because she gets to recover Loot afterwards. Only Vaarsuvius is actually (almost) always stronger in a Ranged Attack (largely because of the Area Effect rules and the 1-Wound penalty for Fireballing in the same room).
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    Quote Originally Posted by lokistang View Post
    I have a question that I might have over looked but anytime i play it seems to me that look is a little over the top. the way i have read the loot cards is there is no limit to asking for help for people ie haley, roy, and elan are on a level with v. V ask all for help giving roy three loot cards (each with two faces), haley two loot (one with three faces, one with two) and elan a loot card (drool factor two) giving a plus 26 in a attack. is this how loot works? or is it one card per person?
    This is correct, but as mentioned, it's a very poor strategy unless you are fighting Xykon himself. (And even then, you might end up losing the game if you give away all your Loot.)
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    Okay. Strange situation. Literally, it stopped our game cold, and until the question is answered, both me and my opponent refuse to continue.

    I am Belkar. Haley is three rooms away, as such:

    [B][ ][ ][H]

    I declare that I am leaping attacking Haley with my Twin Daggers of Doom. (I have three leap attacks, so she's just in range.) As we're discussing combat bonuses, Roy party leader Vetos one of my leaping attacks. My shtick no longer has enough range to reach the target. Argument ensues. I pointed out that in the FAQ, it was stated that he can't use his party leader veto unless its the begining of his turn, so Elan DUN DUN DUNs me instead, flipping my leaping attack. End result is the same, and argument resumes.

    So, what happens?

    Roy, of course, is arguing for heavy punition. He says that because I no longer have the range, I can't use that shtick in combat. However, I had already selected it, so I can't go back and select my, say, verbal abuse shtick instead, because Elan waited until after phase one, (select your shtick) shtick, to do so. Thus, I must fight without a shtick, attacking for zero against Haley's longbow, likely getting hit, and staying in my room.

    I think that if my leaping attack shtick is flipped, it's too late to cancel the attack. I attack Haley (Because the attack has already been declared, and, of course, Elan waited until after I had selected a shtick to flip my card, and when I selected it, my card was still perfectly valid) but only get a +2 bonus to my attack (because I only had two unflipped copies of leaping attack by the time I got there.) I attack for one less than I meant to, but I still attack, and move into the room when I'm done.

    Other possibilities for the outcome of the battle could include:

    - Too little too late. No change in combat.
    - Now that I lack range to attack, I can't use that shtick. I switch to verbal abuse instead.
    - Now that I don't have range, my attack is illegal, and therefore canceled. My turn ends as I sit in a Belkar sulk.
    - Now that I don't have range, my attack is illegal, and therefore canceled. Instead, I use my turn to use my range 2 leaping attack to hit Elan, instead. The little weasel.

    Of course, if the ruling is in my favor, Elan will then simply say "Never mind. I'll flip your twin daggers of doom instead. (I currently only have one copy.) If he does, I'm faced with the same situation. I can't attack like I intended to.

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    It's the fact that the boost affecting range is essential for the attack to go ahead that makes this an issue. Without the boost the attack seems to be invalidated.

    When we play Dun Dun DUN we choose it to flip a shtick that has already been selected (as we don't generally give a chance to respond phase a la Magic the Gathering as it isn't needed often enough). Then the player chooses another shtick.

    Going with that interpretation and then the rules it goes like this.

    As Talonos stated it goes different was depending on the chain that logic follows.
    "I attack Haley with twin daggers of doom!" as Phase 1 you identify shtick you're using and declare the target at phase one of battling.
    Dun Dun DUN!
    If Belkar cannot choose another shtick with adequate range he then has to battle shtickless (as the scenario where someone plays a Surprise! card on a monster that goes on to perform a range attack).
    If he can he should switch to another schtick like verbal abuse.
    The battle is definitly happening as all players have seen the declaration. And the Dun Dun DUN! seals the deal as without a battle it couldn't have been played. So there is no backing out. And you can't select a Hide shtick either as you are the attacker.

    versus
    "I declare a ranged attack phase anybody want to respond?"
    "Yes, I Dun Dun DUN! your twin daggers of doom"
    "Well I verbal abuse a nearby Elan."
    Which I don't think is right as attacking makes both the shtick and target known at the start of the battle.

    Hard question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by talonos View Post
    Okay. Strange situation. Literally, it stopped our game cold, and until the question is answered, both me and my opponent refuse to continue.

    I am Belkar. Haley is three rooms away, as such:

    [B][ ][ ][H]

    I declare that I am leaping attacking Haley with my Twin Daggers of Doom. (I have three leap attacks, so she's just in range.) As we're discussing combat bonuses, Roy party leader Vetos one of my leaping attacks. My shtick no longer has enough range to reach the target. Argument ensues. I pointed out that in the FAQ, it was stated that he can't use his party leader veto unless its the begining of his turn, so Elan DUN DUN DUNs me instead, flipping my leaping attack. End result is the same, and argument resumes.

    So, what happens?

    Roy, of course, is arguing for heavy punition. He says that because I no longer have the range, I can't use that shtick in combat. However, I had already selected it, so I can't go back and select my, say, verbal abuse shtick instead, because Elan waited until after phase one, (select your shtick) shtick, to do so. Thus, I must fight without a shtick, attacking for zero against Haley's longbow, likely getting hit, and staying in my room.

    I think that if my leaping attack shtick is flipped, it's too late to cancel the attack. I attack Haley (Because the attack has already been declared, and, of course, Elan waited until after I had selected a shtick to flip my card, and when I selected it, my card was still perfectly valid) but only get a +2 bonus to my attack (because I only had two unflipped copies of leaping attack by the time I got there.) I attack for one less than I meant to, but I still attack, and move into the room when I'm done.

    Other possibilities for the outcome of the battle could include:

    - Too little too late. No change in combat.
    - Now that I lack range to attack, I can't use that shtick. I switch to verbal abuse instead.
    - Now that I don't have range, my attack is illegal, and therefore canceled. My turn ends as I sit in a Belkar sulk.
    - Now that I don't have range, my attack is illegal, and therefore canceled. Instead, I use my turn to use my range 2 leaping attack to hit Elan, instead. The little weasel.

    Of course, if the ruling is in my favor, Elan will then simply say "Never mind. I'll flip your twin daggers of doom instead. (I currently only have one copy.) If he does, I'm faced with the same situation. I can't attack like I intended to.
    The key piece of evidence is on Page 12, second column, second paragraph. It reads:

    You must select a shtick that has Range equal to or greater to the Range between you and your foe you are Attacking. If you have no such shtick, you may not make a Ranged Attack at all.
    At all. Meaning that once you no longer have the capacity to Attack Haley at that Range, you can not initiate a Ranged Attack, and therefore, there is no battle happening at all. If you DO have another shtick with Range, then you must use that other shtick, because you're only "off the hook" for the Ranged Attack if you have "no such shtick".

    There seems to be a misinterpretation in your group about what happens when someone flips your battle shtick. You may immediately select another available battle shtick, even though you're technically past Phase One. Only if you have no other battle shticks must you battle with no shtick. When someone flips the Battle Shtick you are using, it essentially resets the battle to Phase One while you select another shtick.

    So, in this situation, Elan would flip one of your Leaping Attacks. Since your Twin Daggers of Doom no longer has sufficient Range to reach Haley, you must choose another shtick immediately. You must choose Verbal Abuse, and proceed, because you're not allowed to voluntarily cancel the battle if you have a means of continuing it. If you did NOT have Verbal Abuse, flipping your Leaping Attack would mean that you could not initiate a Ranged Attack, and the battle would stop there because the specific rule about Ranged Attacks demands that it stop there. You couldn't switch your battle to Elan or someone else, though, you would just be out of luck.

    Note also that this only applies to Ranged Attacks. If someone flipped Haley's Longbow in the same scenario and she had no other battle shticks, she'd be screwed and have to battle with no shtick.
    Rich Burlew


    Utterly Dwarfed, the sixth compilation of The Order of the Stick is now in stock. Order at Ookoodook (paper copies) or Gumroad (digital PDFs), or pick it up from your local gaming store.

  28. - Top - End - #358
    APE Games in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Glug View Post
    Hard question.
    Hard question indeed. I'm going to talk to Rich about this. I know how we play, but I want to be sure that it's consistent with his thinking before posting.
    Owner of APE Games.

  29. - Top - End - #359
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Glug View Post
    The battle is definitly happening as all players have seen the declaration. And the Dun Dun DUN! seals the deal as without a battle it couldn't have been played. So there is no backing out.
    This is absolutely wrong. "Players seeing the declaration" is no standard in these rules; if the attack is disallowed by the rules, then it doesn't happen. You can't voluntarily call off the battle because someone flipped your card, but if them flipping your card makes the battle actually by-the-rules illegal, then the battle doesn't happen.

    And there is no twisted logic that says that it has to happen or else the Dun Dun DUN! wouldn't have been played; the card was the CAUSE of the battle not happening in the first place. If a card negates a battle, then the battle is negated, period. This isn't a time travel paradox, it's a board game.
    Rich Burlew


    Utterly Dwarfed, the sixth compilation of The Order of the Stick is now in stock. Order at Ookoodook (paper copies) or Gumroad (digital PDFs), or pick it up from your local gaming store.

  30. - Top - End - #360
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by apegamer View Post
    Hard question indeed. I'm going to talk to Rich about this. I know how we play, but I want to be sure that it's consistent with his thinking before posting.
    Heh, looks like I jumped in before you, sorry.
    Rich Burlew


    Utterly Dwarfed, the sixth compilation of The Order of the Stick is now in stock. Order at Ookoodook (paper copies) or Gumroad (digital PDFs), or pick it up from your local gaming store.

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