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Thread: Rules Questions

  1. - Top - End - #511
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    The Broken Weapon Screw This: If I use Broken Weapon to, say, break Roy's Greenhilt Sword, and he trades in monsters for a schtick and chooses another copy of Greenhilt Sword, does it come into play flipped or not?

    Creative Motivation: If I use Creative Motivation to ask Elan for help, do I get the bonus from Bard Song?

    I'm guessing Roy's Fearless Leader ability can only give the positive effect (heal 1 Wound or unflip 1 Schtick) on a per-battle basis, not a per-Loot-card basis. Is that right?

    If you're attacked while resting or missing a turn, can you use Battle Schticks to defend yourself and potentially inflict damage?
    Relatedly, if you're attacked and dealt damage you still get the benefits of resting, right?
    Last edited by Frogwarrior; 2009-02-23 at 05:16 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #512
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogwarrior View Post
    The Broken Weapon Screw This: If I use Broken Weapon to, say, break Roy's Greenhilt Sword, and he trades in monsters for a schtick and chooses another copy of Greenhilt Sword, does it come into play flipped or not?
    As the card is written, you can draw and play new copies of the same shtick but you can't unflip them until you reach the entrance; but here it could collide RAW with RAI. So, as long as there is no clarification i'd say play it as RAW.

    Creative Motivation: If I use Creative Motivation to ask Elan for help, do I get the bonus from Bard Song?
    No, the card says the player gives you a +2/+2, not an assist.

    I'm guessing Roy's Fearless Leader ability can only give the positive effect (heal 1 Wound or unflip 1 Schtick) on a per-battle basis, not a per-Loot-card basis. Is that right?
    Yes, only once since 1 assist can include several loot cards.

    If you're attacked while resting or missing a turn, can you use Battle Schticks to defend yourself and potentially inflict damage?
    Relatedly, if you're attacked and dealt damage you still get the benefits of resting, right?
    Yes and Yes. You do have the -4 penalty and need enough range to hit them. And if you are forced to flee, you don't get the heal since you never finish resting.
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  3. - Top - End - #513
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Just bought this game and played it for the first time with some friends, awesome game, but I had one question that I couldn't find an answer for anywhere.

    When using passive non-battle shticks, is there any limit to the number that apply, if they can apply? I've found nothing in the rules, only that you can only use one battle shtick at a time.

    The situation we're running into is specifically with leaping attack. With two in play one is boosted to +2 attack and +2 range, but there's nothing that says the other isn't boosted and used as well, resulting in +4 attack +4 range, for a range 4 attack 7 twin daggers of doom. With 3 leaps in play this jumps up to a 12 attack at 9 range before counting any equipped loot, with ring of jumping(?) making it a 15 attack at 12 range, the best attack I've seen in the game.

    This is pretty nasty, so I'm assuming it goes against the spirit of the rules, but there's no rule we could find, unless we missed it digging through the rules and errata about 4 times, that keeps passive non-battle shticks from going up exponentially rather than linearly.

  4. - Top - End - #514
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Volcanoris View Post
    Just bought this game and played it for the first time with some friends, awesome game, but I had one question that I couldn't find an answer for anywhere.

    When using passive non-battle shticks, is there any limit to the number that apply, if they can apply? I've found nothing in the rules, only that you can only use one battle shtick at a time.

    The situation we're running into is specifically with leaping attack. With two in play one is boosted to +2 attack and +2 range, but there's nothing that says the other isn't boosted and used as well, resulting in +4 attack +4 range, for a range 4 attack 7 twin daggers of doom. With 3 leaps in play this jumps up to a 12 attack at 9 range before counting any equipped loot, with ring of jumping(?) making it a 15 attack at 12 range, the best attack I've seen in the game.

    This is pretty nasty, so I'm assuming it goes against the spirit of the rules, but there's no rule we could find, unless we missed it digging through the rules and errata about 4 times, that keeps passive non-battle shticks from going up exponentially rather than linearly.
    What you're missing is that multiple copies of a schtick, are not separate schticks. Additional copies only provide the boost. So with two copies, you only have one "Leaping Attack" schtick. You just have two cards' (one and a boost) worth of Leaping Attack.

  5. - Top - End - #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogwarrior View Post
    What you're missing is that multiple copies of a schtick, are not separate schticks. Additional copies only provide the boost. So with two copies, you only have one "Leaping Attack" schtick. You just have two cards' (one and a boost) worth of Leaping Attack.
    There's actually nothing anywhere in the rules or errata, unless it's not in a section about schticks, that says anything that would imply they aren't seperate shticks. It simply states that a shtick is boosted once for every shtick with the same name you have in play that is face-up and since all copies of Leaping Attack are face up they should all boost each other. If I'm missing something that is actually in the rules please list a page so I can reference.

  6. - Top - End - #516
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Volcanoris View Post
    If I'm missing something that is actually in the rules please list a page so I can reference.
    Page 23 of the rulebook. The mini-comic is quite clear on how boost works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PePe_QuiCoSE View Post
    Page 23 of the rulebook. The mini-comic is quite clear on how boost works.
    Meh, clear? No, that's vague at best, it's specifically referencing a battle schtick, and only says that the extra copies boost the first, not that they can't be used, they simply can't in that scenario since only one battle schtick can be used at a time. The only reference to multiples of a passive schtick is the bard song at the end of the comic, and again, that's vague at best on how they work. I'm sticking with the extras do nothing but boost, but I was hoping for something more clear cut than "you might want to go tell Elan all about that... He just drew his fourth Bard Song shtick" especially since there's nothing to that effect in the actual rules text.

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    You know, you asked for a reference, there are more appropriate answers than "Meh" when you don't like what was offered. Still, it does answer your question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Volcanoris View Post
    The situation we're running into is specifically with leaping attack. With two in play one is boosted to +2 attack and +2 range, but there's nothing that says the other isn't boosted and used as well, resulting in +4 attack +4 range, for a range 4 attack 7 twin daggers of doom. With 3 leaps in play this jumps up to a 12 attack at 9 range before counting any equipped loot, with ring of jumping(?) making it a 15 attack at 12 range, the best attack I've seen in the game.
    Since you have only 1 Twin Daggers of Doom (boosted by having 2 shticks, like the comics says) the benefit of Leaping Attack applies only once. You don't have 2 TDoD but 1 boosted, therefore you can only apply any bonus to the one you have.
    Even in the scenario you described, you would be applying the boost to both TDoD but you can only use one of them for battles, so there is no way to add it up.
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  9. - Top - End - #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by PePe_QuiCoSE View Post
    You know, you asked for a reference, there are more appropriate answers than "Meh" when you don't like what was offered. Still, it does answer your question.
    Since you have only 1 Twin Daggers of Doom (boosted by having 2 shticks, like the comics says) the benefit of Leaping Attack applies only once. You don't have 2 TDoD but 1 boosted, therefore you can only apply any bonus to the one you have.
    Even in the scenario you described, you would be applying the boost to both TDoD but you can only use one of them for battles, so there is no way to add it up.
    Actually it doesn't clearly answer my question, since Twin Daggers of Doom isn't boosted by Leaping Attack, LA just says TDoD gains +1 range and +1 attack. The only thing being boosted is the LAs but since they're not a battle schtick, or one that is flipped to trigger like Halfling Rage, there are no rules specifically stating that they don't all trigger, merely the vague reference in the comic, which points clearly towards the rule on battle schticks and brushes up against the rules for passive schticks, hence the "meh." I'm not sure I'm following your example, but nowhere did I apply LA to more than one TDoD, I just applied all of the LAs to one TDoD, which is the very action in question.

    The simplest, and most balanced, interpretation is that yes, all copies of a schtick beyond the first are absorbed by the first original as a boost, but the only clear example of this is with a battle schtick, which already uses slightly different rules than other schticks. So, as I've already stated, I agree this is how it should work, even though I think it leaves Belkar a little underpowered, versus being overpowered, but that's a different matter, but I would like a definite reference that the rule does in fact work this way, and your reference, as stated, was vague in my opinion. Maybe you don't agree, and I do appreciate your, and all other, helpful attempts to clarify, but when I was looking for something clear cut and I get something vague, "meh" is the lackluster, "I'm unconvinced" kind of response I'm going to give, sorry if that particular onomatopoeia insulted you, never thought I'd use that word in a sentence.

  10. - Top - End - #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volcanoris View Post
    When using passive non-battle shticks, is there any limit to the number that apply, if they can apply?
    You're right that there's no explicit, unambiguous statement in the rules that limits it to one (plus boosts). But it seems clear enough that that's the intent. If you look through the past messages in this thread, there might be something from apegamer or TheGiant that would confirm it - probably not explicitly, but they might have given an example that fits this interpretation only.

    If this was different for battle vs. non-battle shticks, that would certainly merit an explicit mention, and there isn't any. Leaping Attack, Great Cleavage, Sneak Attack, and especially Bard Song would be rather overpowered if each one counted independently as well as boosting all the others. Great Cleavage is arguably overpowered already.

    It could make for an interesting variation, though, if we throw in something to help V and Durkon stay competitive. Elan would need some help too, though, since inflating the power of Bard Song only helps the people he assists, not him.

  11. - Top - End - #521
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by prj View Post
    You're right that there's no explicit, unambiguous statement in the rules that limits it to one (plus boosts). But it seems clear enough that that's the intent. If you look through the past messages in this thread, there might be something from apegamer or TheGiant that would confirm it - probably not explicitly, but they might have given an example that fits this interpretation only.

    If this was different for battle vs. non-battle shticks, that would certainly merit an explicit mention, and there isn't any. Leaping Attack, Great Cleavage, Sneak Attack, and especially Bard Song would be rather overpowered if each one counted independently as well as boosting all the others. Great Cleavage is arguably overpowered already.

    It could make for an interesting variation, though, if we throw in something to help V and Durkon stay competitive. Elan would need some help too, though, since inflating the power of Bard Song only helps the people he assists, not him.
    I agree with your statement. To me it would seem silly to assume that each individual shtick was independent and was boosted by each other shtick of the same name in play. The efforts to keep track of the bonuses, let alone writing those rules out clearly enough that they would be interpreted that way by the majority of players, seem staggering. I know in my groups we've never had this notion, but hey, everyone thinks differently.
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    I may just not be looking at the manual hard enough, but how often do you replenish your battle deck? And are the Screw This! cards mixed in with the monsters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elurindel View Post
    how often do you replenish your battle deck?
    Do you mean each player's Battle Hand? When it's your turn to play a monster and you don't have any left, you then discard any remaining Screw This! cards and draw a new battle hand of seven cards. (Rulebook page 11, under "Playing Monsters", third bullet.

    If you mean the Battle Deck that hands are drawn from, you reshuffle all the discarded monsters and Screw This! cards when the deck is empty. The original rules said to do that immediately when the deck runs out, but the FAQ updates that rule so you wait until the end of the turn. That's so a big monster stack that grows extremely large with Horde can't grow indefinitely.

    And are the Screw This! cards mixed in with the monsters?
    Yes. Monsters that are turned in for shticks and Screw This! cards are discarded into one pile, which is then reshuffled if the Battle Deck runs out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stone View Post
    Is it possible to remove the "Xykon" special ability from Xykon using the "I forgot they could do that" card?

    It sounds pretty silly at first but the rules doesn't forbid it, from what i can tell. This came up in the last game we played and after a good laugh we decided that yes, its possible to remove the "xykon" ability, which postpones the destruction of the dungeon by one turn if he is defeated (when IFTCDT is no longer i effect). What's the official ruling?
    Additional Question: If it is legal...
    Can you discard him w/ the Muskrat 3000 or move him w/ PPI? In the first case, who gets Bragging Points?

    Also, on p. 14, in the "player attacks" example, you made a mathematical error in the math problem itself: 9+2 is NOT 13! (or was this supposed to be a joke, looking at Elan on the side saying "Addition... my old foe. We meet again"?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnema View Post
    Additional Question: If it is legal...
    Can you discard him w/ the Muskrat 3000 or move him w/ PPI? In the first case, who gets Bragging Points?
    No, you can't use Muskrat for that. I think it's somewhere in the rules. I think it's been rules that you are able to move it with PPI but you still need to kill him.
    Also, on p. 14, in the "player attacks" example, you made a mathematical error in the math problem itself: 9+2 is NOT 13! (or was this supposed to be a joke, looking at Elan on the side saying "Addition... my old foe. We meet again"?)
    The rulebook has some mistakes, like the one you pointed out, yes.
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  16. - Top - End - #526
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    I have a question about the Banjo the Clown schtick for Elan. How exactly is it supposed to work? Does the bonus from the vote continue through the end of the turn, or does it only last for the single die roll of the current battle? Reading the card, my group can see it working either way.

    Thanks all.

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    It flips, so it doesn't matter. It lasts until it's used once when it's flipped. Unless you play "A Good Laugh" in which case i guess the vote still counts towards the bouns.
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  18. - Top - End - #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by PePe_QuiCoSE View Post
    No, you can't use Muskrat for that. I think it's somewhere in the rules.
    Nowhere do I see this - besides the Xykon special ability, which was canceled. It is not in the "Xykon the Lich" section, at any rate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnema View Post
    Nowhere do I see this - besides the Xykon special ability, which was canceled. It is not in the "Xykon the Lich" section, at any rate.
    Ah, ok. Thing is i don't consider canceling Xykon Special legal.
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  20. - Top - End - #530
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    Default Official Ruling please

    I would like an official ruling on these if possible.

    Question 1:
    You have three unflipped fireballs available to use and you shoot a room 4 squares away. The fireballs are boosted by 2

    The fireball adds 5 to your attack roll and you hit all 4 monsters in the other room (thanks to boost).
    For simplicity sake they all have 5 defense and no abilities that hinder your ability to kill them.

    Do you flip fireball after you declare attack or at the very end of combat?

    If it's the latter, then DUNDUNDUN can effectively remove a boost card so you are only capable of hitting 3 of the 4 monsters. -- I think this is the correct answer but my group disagrees.

    If it is the first then even if DUNDUNDUN is played, the boost has already taken affect and will not prevent you from hitting all 4, since you already played the boosted card.

    Question 2:
    A loot item offers 3x available move speed if you discard it (i forgot the name)
    I ruled that you could move UP TO 9 squares, some people in my group disagreed and said that you MUST MOVE 9 squares.

    Question 3:
    My last question is more of a request of people who have added their own house rules to this game.

    It seems like Haley is the best character in the game, any recommendations to nerf her a little, or do you guys disagree.

    V on the other hand seems to be lacking, do you think adding +1 attack to the normal boost of the fireball will make him completely unbalanced? Or will it effectively give him the push he needs to have a chance of winning?

  21. - Top - End - #531
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    Default Re: Official Ruling please

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin1280 View Post
    I would like an official ruling on these if possible.
    That's not me, but maybe this will help until The Giant or apegamer chimes in.

    Do you flip fireball after you declare attack or at the very end of combat?
    At the end. Page 15 of the rules puts the flipping under "aftermath".

    If it's the latter, then DUNDUNDUN can effectively remove a boost card so you are only capable of hitting 3 of the 4 monsters.
    Correct, as long as it's played before the die roll.

    A loot item offers 3x available move speed if you discard it (i forgot the name)
    I ruled that you could move UP TO 9 squares, some people in my group disagreed and said that you MUST MOVE 9 squares.
    That's the Gourd of Speed. I would say anything up to 9 is fine. But if someone wants to be more strict, they could only say that you can move 0, 3, 6, or 9. Since you normally have the option of moving 1 or 2 spaces, triple that means you have the option of moving 3 or 6. You're not forced to move 3 spaces without the Gourd, so you're not forced to move 9 with it. The only arguable bit is whether you can move 4, 5, 7, or 8 spaces, since those aren't exactly triple.

    It seems like Haley is the best character in the game, any recommendations to nerf her a little, or do you guys disagree.
    Well, she is one of the easier characters to play (along with Roy). Her starting battle shticks are the strongest, and (along with Durkon) she's pretty well-balanced between attack and defense. But she doesn't stay the strongest in a long game, and she doesn't have time to amass lots of loot in a short game. A little nerfing might be ok, but not too much.

    V on the other hand seems to be lacking, do you think adding +1 attack to the normal boost of the fireball will make him completely unbalanced? Or will it effectively give him the push he needs to have a chance of winning?
    V isn't hurting for attack. If anything, a little extra defense would help, especially in the early game. Maybe let Magic Misslie start with a base defense of 2, but then knock the boost defense down to just +1.

  22. - Top - End - #532
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    Default Re: Official Ruling please

    Quote Originally Posted by prj View Post
    Well, she is one of the easier characters to play (along with Roy). Her starting battle shticks are the strongest, and (along with Durkon) she's pretty well-balanced between attack and defense. But she doesn't stay the strongest in a long game, and she doesn't have time to amass lots of loot in a short game. A little nerfing might be ok, but not too much.



    V isn't hurting for attack. If anything, a little extra defense would help, especially in the early game. Maybe let Magic Misslie start with a base defense of 2, but then knock the boost defense down to just +1.
    Regarding Haley, I'm not exactly sure how to nerf her, ideas?

    Regarding V, I'm trying to follow the character archetypes, V is not a defender and really shouldn't get a bonus defense. He is however an attacker, the problem is loot is an issue for V because he does all his damage at range. So by adding the +1 attack to the boost for the fireball, this should allow him to achieve monster destruction easier, and he can concentrate on Loot cards after wiping out a floor...

  23. - Top - End - #533
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    I got a question I'm pretty sure I know the answer to. Can "Screw This" cards that can be played "At any time," such as The Kobold and the Brave or Get Angry, be played AFTER the dice are rolled but BEFORE the results are applied?

    As I see it, the answer is no, both from the Official Word that cards like Halfling Rage cannot be used in this way, and that Forgotten Bonus specifically says it CAN be used in this way, implying that the others cannot.

  24. - Top - End - #534
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogwarrior View Post
    Can "Screw This" cards that can be played "At any time," such as The Kobold and the Brave or Get Angry, be played AFTER the dice are rolled but BEFORE the results are applied?
    Once the dice are rolled, you can still play cards, but they can no longer affect that battle, because you're no longer battling - you're just figuring out what the results were. Official confirmation here.

  25. - Top - End - #535
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Question:
    A player sets off a trap with a range sufficient to reach another player who was resting. I've been playing that the resting player suffers the -4 defense penalty even though it's "evading" and not "defending". This makes it impossible to beat most of the traps in this way though those traps were already very difficult to evade. It seems to me that it's in the spirit of resting though not everyone agrees on this.
    Are there any rules to evading whilst resting that I have missed somewhere?
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  26. - Top - End - #536
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Vix View Post
    Are there any rules to evading whilst resting that I have missed somewhere?
    No - the rules explain what to do for a trap, and they don't mention any changes for resting. They also don't mention applying any battle modifiers to the evasion roll. So I'd say there isn't supposed to be any difference when resting. The -4 penalty is only for battling on defense. I agree that some penalty would make sense for the theme and spirit, and you can certainly house-rule it that way, but it's not in the official rules.

    If you want to use an evade penalty while resting, but -4 is too much, you could try, say, -2.

  27. - Top - End - #537
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    ^Thankyou, I shall use -2, seems fair.

    I have another question concerning the battle hand
    The rules state to draw a new battle hand when you can no longer play a monster but it always assumes you still have unused screw this cards, saying discard any unused screw this cards from your hand etc. But what if you play your last screw this card or a monster and are left without a hand. can you draw a new battle hand immediately? at the end of the current turn? or should you wait without a hand until you're called on to play a monster and then proceed as the rules state?


    | Thanks for clearing that up for me
    V
    Last edited by Vix; 2009-06-26 at 08:51 PM.
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  28. - Top - End - #538
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Vix View Post
    or should you wait without a hand until you're called on to play a monster and then proceed as the rules state?
    that´s the right one.
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    Question Re: Rules Questions

    I'm busy working my way through the thread now to see if this is answered, but figured I would post it for a quicker response:

    After getting through the first few pages here and having the rule about attacking Monsters with a ranged shtick that is greater than their own weapon and their inability to defend brought to light, this came to mind:

    Since Belkar's "Twin Daggers of Doom" adds +1 to his range is he then unable to take damage from a Monster who's weapon is only a range of 0?

  30. - Top - End - #540
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    Default Re: Rules Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by DancingMonkey View Post
    Since Belkar's "Twin Daggers of Doom" adds +1 to his range is he then unable to take damage from a Monster who's weapon is only a range of 0?
    He won't take damage from a range-0 monster if he's actually attacking from a range of more than 0 (that is, from another room). Simply using a shtick that's capable of such an attack, but doing it from the same room, doesn't protect him.

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