Rules Questions

[Roxysteve]

Two wishes for the excellent OOTS game.

1) If the monster type icon and name were printed on both the top *and* the bottom of each card, battle stack building would be easier because you'd be able to see all the relevant information by fanning the cards "up' as they are played. As they are printed now, you need to see both ends of each card to assess supports.

2) If the rules were formatted in the old Avalon Hill style Case System (a sort of highly indexed, print database organised in game turn sequence with built-in drill-down for detail as needed), they would be ever so much easier to use in the heat of a game. I can never find the rules I need even when the index has an entry for whatever point of order is causing a frank exchange of views, because I never know whether the issue is in the page or lurking in a sidebar.

Lest ye think I be pickin' on the OOTS:TDOD design team, I love the game and I think the design concept is sound but that it could be improved without changing it with a few tweaks.

I'm looking forward to the time I can actually play as a member of The Linear Guild too. Roll on that expansion.

[Roxysteve]

Some abilities apply, some do not: bloodlust does not but impervious does. Think about what abilities activate before battle and after battle and it gives you a good idea of the ones that apply even with insufficient range. I don't remember the official ruling, but i play that outsmart does.

And not forgetting that Belkar always ends up in the room *with* the monster after a ranged attack, which might trigger some effects that other players wouldn't see.

Steve.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

If you put the new monsters on the bottom and roaches always go to the bottom but only when they are played then what is the difference between them and normal monsters?

Roaches go to the bottom of the stack even if other monsters are played into the battle after they were placed; they go to the bottom and stay there. Every monster played after the roaches go below the already played monsters and above the roaches.

[magneticmagnum]

When can you use the 'discard loot' for its effects?

One of our members had died, and yet he wanted to instantly use his potion to heal himself. We denied it to him, claiming that loots may only be discarded as if you equip/unequipped the item.

Were we right?

[Zelthax]

I'm pretty sure the only thing you can do when fleeing the dungeon is flee.

Regardless of xp, potions, Gourd of Speed, anything, you must move three spaces towards the dungeon exit dropping loot until you get there.
So you were right to deny him the heal.
Otherwise, you do not have to have Loot equipped to discard it. You can discard at any time (unless overruled by higher priority events such as fleeing).

[sierraindigo]

Hi, I've got a situation where deciding at what point Demon Roaches scuttle down to the back of deck seems to make a potentially significant difference:

Given a new level 3 room with the following 3 cards on the Battle Stack so far:

1. Demon Roach King on top (Horde: +1 battle size per supporting card)
2. Demon Roach (supporting king)
3. Demon Roach (supporting king)

From there, the King is supported by 2 Roach henchmen, so the battle size should increase by +2 to 5.

If you play 'build the stack, then move the roaches', we might wind up with this stack:

1. Demon Roach King on top (Horde: +1 battle size per supporting card)
2. Demon Roach (supporting king)
3. Demon Roach (supporting king)
4. Zz'dtri (Has Linear Guild support ability, so could be supported by henchmen)
5. Deeply Uninteresting Kobold (I probably made him up)

Then, having reached a battle size of 5, move the roaches to end up with Zz'dtri, Kobold, Roach King, Roach, Roach, with the 3 Roaches now supporting Zz'dtri.

However, if you keep the roaches at the bottom of the stack as you're building it, and play Zz'dtri into the stack giving:

1. Zz'dtri on top
2. Demon Roach King (supporting Zz'dtri)
3. Demon Roach (supporting Zz'dtri)
4. Demon Roach (supporting Zz'dtri)

This now means the Roach King has no support, so do we 'cancel' building the horde and stop at 4, or do we honor the earlier goal of 'Battle Size is now 5' and continue? (I've simplified this a bit - my actual situation has two other roaches in a different room, so the difference is potentially a stack of 4 vs a stack of 7)

The former (build, then scuttle) approach seems to make sense to me as there's no ambiguity involved.

[Zelthax]

This is a common issue, and my group had issues dealing with it, so we just made a ground-rule. I'm not sure if this is exactly right, but it stops confusion, and that's all we really ever ask for.

While it seems simple to build the stack then move roaches to the bottom, things get tricky if anything else in the stack has the horde ability. Not because it's hard to count, but because the roaches can increase the size again, and if more support is added, you have to recount when the roaches are moved to the bottom, and so on.

I usually will play demon roaches "bottom up" when it comes to this issue- immediately place the roaches at the bottom of the deck (keeping order straight in case of demon roach king). It's a bit more to handle at first, but it avoids double counting since all cards above the roaches are immediately supported, increasing battle size as necessary. It also helps players who are playing monsters into the stack to know the support from the roaches (it's easy to forget the roaches are #3 in a stack of 9 when you're playing card #8).

------As I have finished typing this, I realize that your case concerns the "Only support the top card" rule fix, which my group doesn't use. In that case, I'm not really sure. Sorry about that. I could speculate, though! I'm good at that!

[sierraindigo]

Apologies, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about the above situation as it related to the modified support rules from the errata - your last line made me smile, as I'd been thinking "But but but only the topmost monster gets supported" whilst reading your reply up until that point.

Thinking about the original rules, since everyone is supported by everyone else on the floor that qualifies, regardless of stack position, it shouldn't actually make any difference to the final stack when the roaches are moved I don't think, so whatever makes it easier to keep track of, as you suggest, seems best.

Mind you, on my first couple of games, I kept forgetting both that support was provided by everyone on the same floor, and that it could come from higher up the same stack too... doh.

[Zelthax]

Well, in order to prevent a perpetual-battle-size-increase scenario, my group has always played that:

Every card is supported by all cards on the floor and all cards beneath it. It seems to make more sense in Role-playing (monsters that are attacking(on top) get support from those backing it up, and cards that aren't attacking don't need support) as well as in gameplay use (cards shouldn't get supported by cards higher up in the stack because when you finally get to fight a monster in the middle of a stack, the top monsters are dead!).

This doesn't particularly affect the roach situation, except in the case of the roach king. The only issues you run into with this rule is when Elan pushes monsters around with his Illusion (we apply standard Area-attack), but by that point, the stack is already formed, and the "pushed" monster therefore supports the next monster on the stack it left, and is supported by all the monsters underneath its new stack, should there be any (but that didn't change).

It's a nice little rule-mod that hasn't failed us yet!

[djk]

Situation: Screw This card "Recurring Villain" is played on a monster from the Xykon Deck just after it was defeated. Where does the recurring monster go?

I see four options for how this situation could be handled.

(1) Put that monster into the battle deck. Problem: the monster will be obvious because it has a black Xykon Deck back rather than a brown Battle Deck card.

(2) Put the monster back into the Xykon deck. Problem 1: the screw this card says to put it back into the Battle Deck. Problem 2: adding an extra monster to the Xykon Deck can lead to a situation where you explore all the rooms in Xykon's Lair, but don't find Xykon.

(3) Discard the monster. Problem: the monster cannot possibly recur.

(4) Forbid use of Recurring Villain on any monster that came from the Xykon Deck. Problem: the card says "any player defeats a Monster (other than Xykon)", not "... (other than a monster from the Xykon Deck)".

Would anyone like to make a ruling (or a suggestion) on which option should apply?

[The Giant]

When can you use the 'discard loot' for its effects?

One of our members had died, and yet he wanted to instantly use his potion to heal himself. We denied it to him, claiming that loots may only be discarded as if you equip/unequipped the item.

Were we right?

Sort of.

You were right in that he could not discard the potion after he lost his last Wound, because once you lose your last Wound you can do nothing but flee the dungeon. However, you can discard Loot for the printed effect on the Loot card at any point before losing that last Wound, even on another player's turn. The only time you are limited to when you can discard Loot is when you are trading it for shticks.

Hi, I've got a situation where deciding at what point Demon Roaches scuttle down to the back of deck seems to make a potentially significant difference:

Given a new level 3 room with the following 3 cards on the Battle Stack so far:

1. Demon Roach King on top (Horde: +1 battle size per supporting card)
2. Demon Roach (supporting king)
3. Demon Roach (supporting king)

From there, the King is supported by 2 Roach henchmen, so the battle size should increase by +2 to 5.

If you play 'build the stack, then move the roaches', we might wind up with this stack:

1. Demon Roach King on top (Horde: +1 battle size per supporting card)
2. Demon Roach (supporting king)
3. Demon Roach (supporting king)
4. Zz'dtri (Has Linear Guild support ability, so could be supported by henchmen)
5. Deeply Uninteresting Kobold (I probably made him up)

Then, having reached a battle size of 5, move the roaches to end up with Zz'dtri, Kobold, Roach King, Roach, Roach, with the 3 Roaches now supporting Zz'dtri.

However, if you keep the roaches at the bottom of the stack as you're building it, and play Zz'dtri into the stack giving:

1. Zz'dtri on top
2. Demon Roach King (supporting Zz'dtri)
3. Demon Roach (supporting Zz'dtri)
4. Demon Roach (supporting Zz'dtri)

This now means the Roach King has no support, so do we 'cancel' building the horde and stop at 4, or do we honor the earlier goal of 'Battle Size is now 5' and continue? (I've simplified this a bit - my actual situation has two other roaches in a different room, so the difference is potentially a stack of 4 vs a stack of 7)

The former (build, then scuttle) approach seems to make sense to me as there's no ambiguity involved.

Scuttling always happens immediately. Demon Roaches scuttle to the back of the pile after each and every monster played into the room, so that you may as well place the new monster between the last non-roach and the first roach for ease.

So, the latter option is the intent of the Rules Fix from the Faq: Yes, it undercuts the Demon Roach King's ability to be supported, but cutting down on crazy Hordes was part of the point of the fix.

As to the question of do you "honor" the earlier Battle Size, the answer is no. At any point when the Battle Size dictated for the room (after taking into account Leader, Horde, etc.) is smaller than the actual number of Monsters currently in that room, stop playing Monsters immediately--the battle stack is finished.

So, in your example, we would be finished with a stack of Zz'dtri and three roaches.

Situation: Screw This card "Recurring Villain" is played on a monster from the Xykon Deck just after it was defeated. Where does the recurring monster go?

I see four options for how this situation could be handled.

(1) Put that monster into the battle deck. Problem: the monster will be obvious because it has a black Xykon Deck back rather than a brown Battle Deck card.

(2) Put the monster back into the Xykon deck. Problem 1: the screw this card says to put it back into the Battle Deck. Problem 2: adding an extra monster to the Xykon Deck can lead to a situation where you explore all the rooms in Xykon's Lair, but don't find Xykon.

(3) Discard the monster. Problem: the monster cannot possibly recur.

(4) Forbid use of Recurring Villain on any monster that came from the Xykon Deck. Problem: the card says "any player defeats a Monster (other than Xykon)", not "... (other than a monster from the Xykon Deck)".

Would anyone like to make a ruling (or a suggestion) on which option should apply?

Option #3. While it does make the title of the card somewhat inaccurate, it is the least problematic solution. Just assume that they'll recur in the next game you play rather than later in this one.

[prj]

After a Leaping Attack into another room, can Belkar continue battling monsters in his new room? The rules say (p15) "You may not continue to battle additional Monsters if you made a Ranged Attack into a room; you must be in the same room as the Monsters in order to continue." The first part, taken exactly as stated, would prohibit Belkar from continuing, since a Leaping Attack into another room is a ranged attack. But the second part sounds like the rule was written without Leaping Attack in mind.

A) How do people play this? B) Can TheGiant or apegamer chime in with the official word?

[The Giant]

After a Leaping Attack into another room, can Belkar continue battling monsters in his new room? The rules say (p15) "You may not continue to battle additional Monsters if you made a Ranged Attack into a room; you must be in the same room as the Monsters in order to continue." The first part, taken exactly as stated, would prohibit Belkar from continuing, since a Leaping Attack into another room is a ranged attack. But the second part sounds like the rule was written without Leaping Attack in mind.

A) How do people play this? B) Can TheGiant or apegamer chime in with the official word?

No, you may not continue battling Monsters in the same room. It says so right in the third sentence in the text of Leaping Attack: "You may not battle additional Monsters or players in that room until your next turn, though you may pick up Loot if there are no Monsters."

The rule was written without Leaping Attack in mind because Leaping Attack is an exception to the rule. The text on the card specifically states how this works, though, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[The Giant]

From a lot earlier in the thread:

Question:
A player sets off a trap with a range sufficient to reach another player who was resting. I've been playing that the resting player suffers the -4 defense penalty even though it's "evading" and not "defending". This makes it impossible to beat most of the traps in this way though those traps were already very difficult to evade. It seems to me that it's in the spirit of resting though not everyone agrees on this.
Are there any rules to evading whilst resting that I have missed somewhere?

There should be no penalty to the Evade roll for resting.

Avoiding traps is difficult enough and resting has enough penalties associated with it as-is. Further, the resting penalty to Defense is included largely as a PvP incentive (to allow a player who is lagging a chance to catch up by mugging a more powerful player), since it rarely comes up in Player vs. Monster combat. Since players have no control over where and when Traps are sprung, there's no real strategy added to the game by including a penalty except to make resting even riskier, which is counter to our aims.

[ChrisFortyTwo]

We were playing last weekend, and had an interesting situation. Elan was ahead of us by a lot, and ended up heading to Xykon's level first. On his second turn in the level, he moved into a new room and battled a monster who was way above what he had expected. He also didn't have any support from other characters. So, he decided to use his Poorly Planned Illusion to avoid a hit.

The problem is, the only adjacent room was the Safe Room. Now, the text is similar to the Room of Horrible Death for Other People, which we normally allow monsters to be moved into, but the Safe Room is supposed to be safe, right? We ended up moving the horde to the safe room anyway, and it turned out not to be a problem (Xykon was defeated shortly after)

Did we do this right, should the Safe Room be kept Safe?

Thanks

[prj]

So, he decided to use his Poorly Planned Illusion to avoid a hit.

The problem is, the only adjacent room was the Safe Room.

I think that's fine. The Battle Size being zero means that no new battles can be started there, but it doesn't stop monsters from being moved into that room.

[runescaper123]

If two monster cards with the henchman ability are played, which goes at the bottom?

EG:two cards and 1 cards are played. since both cards have the henchman ability, in which order does need to face them?

[Zelthax]

Er, they should be the same Atk and Def, etc...so it doesn't matter, really...

However, the "Immediate Scuttle" should place each Henchmen at the bottom of the current pile. So, with Nale and Roach #1 and Roach#2, the play goes as follows:

Nale is played.
Roach#1 is played, goes to bottom.
Roach#2 is played, goes to bottom.

Stack is:

Nale
Roach#1
Roach#2

[curtis]

So this came up a few pages ago and never got resolved, is the lack of X's and coins on the Guard Monster intentional or an error?

Do you have to flip Fearless Leader in order to not believe in the power of Banjo?

[PePe QuiCoSE]

AFAIK is intentional.
On the Fearless Leader i think in the card is written "assist", not erm... cooperate or something so it only applies to that aspect, that mechanic.

[Oisian]

After the latest game with my wife, I decided it was time to reread the rules (good thing; I'd been misremembering several of them!).

One of the things I'd forgotten was that you get to pick up two loot when you rest.

Now I'd had some trouble understanding how the whole 'picking up loot' thing works, and I finally worked it out like this (check me if I'm wrong here): a turn is, in a sense, divided into four phases. The first is the 'Beginning of the turn' phase, the second is 'movement,' the third is 'battle,' and the fourth is 'end of turn' (I've actually created a flowchart that encompasses all of this, as I understand it, which I may share at some point in the future).

As far as picking up loot goes, in the 'beginning of the turn' phase, you are allowed to pick up one loot in your current room IF there are no monsters there. In the 'battle' phase, you are allowed to pick up two loot IF you clear the room of monsters (regardless of whether you've picked up any loot earlier in the turn). In the 'end of turn' phase, you're allowed to pick up one loot IF there are no monsters in the room with you AND IF you've not picked up ANY loot earlier in the turn.

If this is correct, then it would indicate that it's possible, without schticks or other effects, to pick up three loot in one turn: one in the beginning of the turn, and two after moving and battling in which you successfully clear out the last monster.

So my question is this: does the two loot from resting work the same way? If you start your turn in a room with three or more loot and no monsters, can you pick up a loot at the beginning of your turn and then pick up two more when you elect to rest? Or is it more like you get to pick up one bonus loot when you elect to rest, thus keeping it at a total of two loot picked up in this turn, and the only way to get a third without using schticks or other effects is by moving and battling?

[prj]

As far as picking up loot goes, in the 'beginning of the turn' phase, you are allowed to pick up one loot in your current room IF there are no monsters there. In the 'battle' phase, you are allowed to pick up two loot IF you clear the room of monsters (regardless of whether you've picked up any loot earlier in the turn). In the 'end of turn' phase, you're allowed to pick up one loot IF there are no monsters in the room with you AND IF you've not picked up ANY loot earlier in the turn.

That's right.

So my question is this: does the two loot from resting work the same way?

One might read the rules that way, but I don't think that's intended. If it were, I think it would probably be spelled out explicitly on page 24, or in the example on page 25.

[The Giant]

For ease of finding and answering questions about The Shortening, I've moved the three posts with questions about it to another thread. So this thread will remain for general rules questions or i those about the Dungeon of Dorukan/Deluxe Edition, and that thread for ones about The Shortening.

[Zarquon]

I just got Dungeon of Dorukan for Christmas (finally!) and was wondering: It would seem to me to be possible to play this game single-handedly. Most things that happen are either die rolls or pulling cards from decks, which are easily randomized if they aren't already.

Has anyone come up with such rules? I'm playing around with it at the moment, having a single Battle deck to pull from, for instance, but I was wondering if any previous work had been done on this subject.

[Shadowknight13]

A question: As long as you didn't move, are you allowed to make multiple ranged attacks per turn as long as you don't lose or draw? (When battling monsters, not players)

[NettoTakashi]

Some questions on Elan's "Poorly Planned Illusions"...

1. As a Ranged Attack that hits All Monsters, does this hit every monster within its range, like how a ranged Trap hits every player in its range, or does it only affect monsters within a selected room?

2. The card says that Elan may move all monsters he wins against. Does that mean that, if the total result is high enough to beat some monsters in the affected area, but not others, those beaten get moved while those not beaten potentially counter-attack? Or is it an all-or-nothing deal, where you have to beat EVERY monster to move ANY of them?

3. Can monsters be moved into areas that monsters cannot normally appear in, such as the Safe Haven?

4. While Xykon himself cannot be moved, other Xykon monsters can be moved. Does this include the ability to move them up the stairs, out of Xykon's lair?

5. Can Poorly Planned Illusions be used against another player? If so, what happens when Elan wins that combat?

...I think that's all the questions I had on that subject, though I've got this nagging feeling I'm forgetting one.

On a completely different subject, though...Resting/Losing a Turn.

6. The rules say that combat effects from Resting or Fleeing also apply while Losing a Turn. What, exactly, does this mean? Does it mean the player Losing a Turn is at -4 against other attacking players? Or does that only apply if the player was trying to Rest when they lost their turn? Does it affect monster combat in any way (e.g., if someone uses "Surprise!" to launch a monster attack on the character)?

7. Can a character who is Resting search for stairs?

8. Can a character who is Resting or Losing a Turn use combat schticks to defend against attacks from other players? What about against Surprise! attacks from monsters?

Hmmmm...yeah, I think that's enough questions for now.

[prj]

As a Ranged Attack that hits All Monsters, does this hit every monster within its range, like how a ranged Trap hits every player in its range, or does it only affect monsters within a selected room?

Only those in the targeted room. A Ranged Attack lets you target one monster in another room (rulebook page 12), and Area Effect expands the attack to include other monsters in the same room (page 18). There isn't anything in the rules that would expand it beyond there.

Or is it an all-or-nothing deal, where you have to beat EVERY monster to move ANY of them?

All or nothing. This is unrelated to ranged attacks, but is true for all Area Effect attacks. See page 18.

Can monsters be moved into areas that monsters cannot normally appear in, such as the Safe Haven?

Yes. The rules don't make an exception for such rooms.

While Xykon himself cannot be moved, other Xykon monsters can be moved. Does this include the ability to move them up the stairs, out of Xykon's lair?

Yes. Since you can move them only one room at a time, this would require multiple battles on multiple turns.

Can Poorly Planned Illusions be used against another player?

No, for all Area Effect shticks. Page 18.

Does it mean the player Losing a Turn is at -4 against other attacking players?

Yes. This applies to monster battles as well, in the case of Surprise! or Wandering Xykon with the Shortening expansion. Page 20 states the penalty applies to both player and monster battles when resting, and later states that the same penalties apply when missing a turn.

Can a character who is Resting search for stairs?

You can search at the beginning or end of your turn, so you can search before you rest, on the same turn.

Can a character who is Resting or Losing a Turn use combat schticks to defend against attacks from other players? What about against Surprise! attacks from monsters?

Yes. There's no prohibition in the rules against using shticks while resting.

[The Giant]

All of prj's answers are correct.

[Dice Kitty]

Good day!

It's been quite a while since I posted here.

Oh well, we started to play again the game, but I have a doubt regarding the rules.

When I end up in a new room, a monster appears, a battle happens, my turn ends. If I start the turn with the monster in the same room, Can I walk away from the battle and move to a different room with one of my friends to heal? Or do I have to fight the monster until it's dead?

Thanks in advance!!

[The Giant]

When I end up in a new room, a monster appears, a battle happens, my turn ends. If I start the turn with the monster in the same room, Can I walk away from the battle and move to a different room with one of my friends to heal? Or do I have to fight the monster until it's dead?

You can walk away.

As a rule of thumb, already face-up monsters don't impede movement at all, and only force a battle if you end your movement there. You can walk away from (or through) face-up monsters with impunity as long as you have movement remaining.

There are, I think, one or two exceptions, but they're clearly spelled out on the card in question.