Rules Questions

[apegamer]

That doesn't seem fair at all. Either it's a ranged attack and roy fights schtickless but belkar gets no equipped loot OR it's range 0 and Roy uses greenhilt and belkar gets loot. I don't see how you can mix-match.

When Belkar attacks Roy with Twin Daggers of Doom, he's attacking from Range 1, not Range 0, so Roy cannot use Greenhilt Sword. After the attack is resolved, Belkar moves into the room and can take a loot from Roy.

I don't see how Belkar gets 2 loots. The card says he only moves there at the end of the turn so he follows the normal ranged mechanic (he doesnt get to loot 2 for killing the last monster) and just follows the end of turn loot mechanic.

I'll have to go back to look exactly how it's worded, but I think that if at the end of your turn you're in a room which you cleared out the last monster, you can take 2 loot. Consider that to be the case unless I come back and edit this post.

[bakaninja]

Several nit-picky questions that have come up. As far as I can tell, they haven't been addressed in this thread (crosses fingers).

Durkon's Darkvision lets you see the top card on the room stack. DOes this apply to Xykon's room stack as well, once you're in Xykon's Lair?

This is probably a long shot, but can Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion move a monster stack in 2 different directions? I.e. move Sabine, Nale, and THog right and move the 2 forgettable goblins left? Or does it move the entire monster pile together in 1 direction?

"There is no I in team", punishes the assisting player with a wound when the battling player loses. Can it be played after a Double Cross? (which adds your assist to the monster instead of the player) It seemed like an effective counter against Double Cross. Also, could you theoretically play multiple copies? I had a game where I was double crossed by Roy, so multiple "There is no I in team"'s were played, killing Roy. I was highly amused.

Can Belkar flip 2 Halfling Rages, if both copies are face up? Flip both copies for +6, +6? And if he does, how many wounds does he lose?

The timing got a little weird with another Screw This combo. Haley won a battle with some assistance from Varsuvius. She then played Eternal Gratitutde to take back the loot (Ultimate Arcane Power). V then played a double cross to cause Haley to lose the combat. We said that it was too late to play the double cross. But V argued that it said to play it after the dice were rolled, so it still applied. We then wondered if V were right, would Haley get back her Eternal Gratitude, since she gets her loot back, anyway?

If Durkon rolls a 14 at the Shrine of THor, what happens? (Through the Divine Intervention of THor which turns 1's into 13's, and the fact that Durkon gets +1 at the Shrine.) We ruled that Thor himself blessed Durkon's Faithfulness, and that everyone else had to fetch him snacks and drinks from the living room. I think this should become an official errata.

Can I give loot to NPC's if _I_ am the only other player who drools over it?

I won (yay!) last night by meeting Xykon, and then forgetting he could do that to his support bonuses from Goblins and undead, making it irrelavent what monsters were put below him. Is that okay? SHould this be allowed? WIthout his AWESOME BONUSES, it was kind of trivial to defeat him.

And to let you know, here's my records with this game, so far:
Belkar vs. Roy - winner is Belkar (Roy was strangely awful with his crippling weakness against flying and impervious, and Belkar never PvP'ed.)
Haley vs. Varsuvius - winner is Haley (by a huge margin, Varsuvius was not good, when Haley is singlehandedly dealing with her stacks, leaving nothing for V)
Elan vs. Durkon - winner is Durkon (Elan is not so good in a 2 player game)

Last night, we had all the OOTS members, except for Elan playing. I won with Durkon, with Haley being the only other member with all 20 shticks. Roy did the worst.

Also, Xykon has been the first monster we've met in 3 out of the 4 games!

Final thought is that the time estimate on the game is a huge underestimation. That being said, I really enjoy the humor of the game and the fact that each character is so different. I've refused to look through the shticks because I want to be surprised (though by now I've seen them all). Very impressive work!

[Trinak]

Searched a little bit and don't think this question has been answered. On the Haley shtick where she gets the bonus from being on the same floor as Elan or Nale (don't remember name of shtick) it gets boosted if she's fighting Nale or Elan. Since she doesn't have another copy of this shtick is the only way to boost it by the screw this card "Get Angry" or is it just boosted whenever she's fighting one of them?

[The Doctor]

When Belkar attacks Roy with Twin Daggers of Doom, he's attacking from Range 1, not Range 0, so Roy cannot use Greenhilt Sword. After the attack is resolved, Belkar moves into the room and can take a loot from Roy.

As a follow up question: if Vaarsuvius uses a ranged attack on (say) Belkar, can he send in his familiar to get loot from Belkar?

And question two:
If I have two bard song shtick cards, and someone flips the bard song Shtick with a Screw this card or Roys/Haley's shtick, do they flip only one 'bard song' card (removing one support), or all cards with that name (disabling the shtick entirely?)?

[The Doctor]

The timing got a little weird with another Screw This combo. Haley won a battle with some assistance from Varsuvius. She then played Eternal Gratitutde to take back the loot (Ultimate Arcane Power). V then played a double cross to cause Haley to lose the combat. We said that it was too late to play the double cross. But V argued that it said to play it after the dice were rolled, so it still applied. We then wondered if V were right, would Haley get back her Eternal Gratitude, since she gets her loot back, anyway?

Just IMO. But while not spelled out, it seems to me "Double Cross" is played before the battle is resolved, and Eternal Gratitude after (that is, the monster is dead and dropped his loot).
So if Eternal Gratitude is played, the battle outcome has already been determined, and then the Double Cross cannot be used any more (as the monster is already defeated and Haley is already filling her bags of holding).

[The Giant]

As a follow up question: if Vaarsuvius uses a ranged attack on (say) Belkar, can he send in his familiar to get loot from Belkar?

No. Blackwing's card specifies "When you defeat the last Monster in a room..." meaning that it has no effect when battling other players.

If I have two bard song shtick cards, and someone flips the bard song Shtick with a Screw this card or Roys/Haley's shtick, do they flip only one 'bard song' card (removing one support), or all cards with that name (disabling the shtick entirely?)?

Only one card is flipped.

Searched a little bit and don't think this question has been answered. On the Haley shtick where she gets the bonus from being on the same floor as Elan or Nale (don't remember name of shtick) it gets boosted if she's fighting Nale or Elan. Since she doesn't have another copy of this shtick is the only way to boost it by the screw this card "Get Angry" or is it just boosted whenever she's fighting one of them?

Currently the only ways to boost this card (called Secret Crush) is through using Get Angry or having Vaarsuvius target it with the Buff Spell shtick. There might be other ways in future expansions.

It is not automatically boosted whenever she's fighting one of them; it merely gains a +4 bonus towards fighting them when it IS boosted by some other means (such as Get Angry). The intent is that when Haley "gets angry" at Elan or Nale, she's much better at fighting them--"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." If it is boosted by Get Angry on a turn when she's not battling Elan or Nale, the Boost has no real effect.

Durkon's Darkvision lets you see the top card on the room stack. DOes this apply to Xykon's room stack as well, once you're in Xykon's Lair?

No. The Room Deck means the deck with the words "Dungeon Rooms" on the back, not the Xykon's Lair deck. If you need an explanation, the magical darkness in Xykon's Lair can't be penetrated by mere darkvision.

This is probably a long shot, but can Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion move a monster stack in 2 different directions? I.e. move Sabine, Nale, and THog right and move the 2 forgettable goblins left? Or does it move the entire monster pile together in 1 direction?

Each monster is moved individually, so yes, you can do that exact thing. Further, if the room has stairs going down, you could move Nale and Sabine down, Thog left, and the two goblins right.

"There is no I in team", punishes the assisting player with a wound when the battling player loses. Can it be played after a Double Cross? (which adds your assist to the monster instead of the player) It seemed like an effective counter against Double Cross.

Nope. Once Double Cross is played, that player is no longer assisting the battling player, they are assisting the Monster (or other player). As a result, they are no longer effected by There is No "I" in Team, which specifically says that only those players that were assisting the losing player lose 1 Wound--and the Double Cross-using player is NOT assisting the losing player anymore.

There is one semi-exception: If the Player A is fighting Player B, and Player C is assisting is assisting Player A. Player C then uses Double Cross so that he is now assisting Player B. Now, if Player B loses, Player C would be affected by a There is No "I" in Team card played on Player B. If Player A loses and the card is thus played on Player A, then Player C is not affected, as he ended up assisting the winner.

Also, could you theoretically play multiple copies? I had a game where I was double crossed by Roy, so multiple "There is no I in team"'s were played, killing Roy. I was highly amused.

Multiple There is No "I" in Team cards can be played, yes, but the exact situation you describe is not legal, since Roy was no longer assisting a player at all.

Can Belkar flip 2 Halfling Rages, if both copies are face up? Flip both copies for +6, +6? And if he does, how many wounds does he lose?

Yes, he can flip both. At the end of the battle, he loses 1 Wound, because the first shtick to be flipped was Boosted by the second copy (meaning that you don't lose 1 Wound for using it), but the second shtick to be flipped was not.

The timing got a little weird with another Screw This combo. Haley won a battle with some assistance from Varsuvius. She then played Eternal Gratitutde to take back the loot (Ultimate Arcane Power). V then played a double cross to cause Haley to lose the combat. We said that it was too late to play the double cross. But V argued that it said to play it after the dice were rolled, so it still applied. We then wondered if V were right, would Haley get back her Eternal Gratitude, since she gets her loot back, anyway?

Vaarsuvius was incorrect here. "After the dice were rolled" means immediately after the die roll, before moving on in the battle sequence. Making the die roll is Step 5; giving Loot to players that assisted you is part of the Aftermath, or Step 7. Haley cannot play Eternal Gratitude until Step 7; the card says to play it immediately AFTER any battle (the Aftermath, as its name implies, is after the battle). Vaarsuvius cannot back the sequence up to Step 5 once the battle is concluded. As a result, he cannot Double Cross Haley after she plays Eternal Gratitude.

This is probably one for the FAQ, though.

If Durkon rolls a 14 at the Shrine of THor, what happens? (Through the Divine Intervention of THor which turns 1's into 13's, and the fact that Durkon gets +1 at the Shrine.) We ruled that Thor himself blessed Durkon's Faithfulness, and that everyone else had to fetch him snacks and drinks from the living room. I think this should become an official errata.

Durkon can't roll a 14; Divine Intervention of Thor specifically states that it works when rolling the die "in battle". Therefore it has no effect on the Shrine of Thor.

Can I give loot to NPC's if _I_ am the only other player who drools over it?

Yes.

I won (yay!) last night by meeting Xykon, and then forgetting he could do that to his support bonuses from Goblins and undead, making it irrelavent what monsters were put below him. Is that okay? SHould this be allowed? WIthout his AWESOME BONUSES, it was kind of trivial to defeat him.

This is, in fact, the very best way to defeat Xykon. It is absolutely legal and has been suggested by us as one of the primary solutions to the "invincible Xykon" problem. Good planning = win.

[bakaninja]

Thanks for the reply! That answers everything I needed to know.

[Trinak]

I've looked through the rules and haven't seen it, but I may have just missed the answer. Anyways, the question is can you range attack and then move? I know you can't move and then attack but can you do the reverse?

[evnafets]

Anyways, the question is can you range attack and then move?

Answer: No.

Reference Page 8 of the rules, "Taking Turns" section 2, paragraph 2 (or is that paragraph 3?)

Movement always comes before battling; if you begin a battle you may no longer move this turn

And then in the section titled "Movement Rules"

You may choose whether or not to move your character on your turn. If you choose to move however you do so before battling monsters or other players

[The Giant]

Yup, that's right. Movement, if there is any, always comes before battling.

[memetics]

Leperflesh (post #179) asks:

1. Conceptually, does a player's "loot pile" consist of only loot cards they have not equipped, or, both unequipped AND equipped loot? This matters because in some cases, a player is supposed to lose a loot from their "loot pile" randomly, and we wonder if this could include an equipped loot item.

[answer "put on hold" by apegamer in post #181]

Page 24, top of column 2, says that the Loot Stash is a "face-down pile of Loot cards that belong to you." Equipped cards are face-up, so they are not part of your Loot Stash. Your Loot Stash is stashed away from prying eyes. Also, page 17 (PvP section) rule 6 clearly distinguishes between equipped Loot and the Loot Stash.

HTH

-m

[memetics]

Okay; my group has played the game several times and has come up with a nice big set of questions: some are nitpicky, but most (hopefully) are significant. After reading the whole thread, I've eliminated about half of them, so here are our remaining questions. (Apologies in advance for the length of the list - and in spite of that, a dozen times as many thanks to Rich for a highly entertaining game!)

================

If Elan uses Poorly-Planned Illusion to move creatures, must they move in any particular order, or can Elan decide the order they end up moving and stacking into the new room(s)? (I'm assuming that in whatever order they are added, they must go on top of any existing monsters in the destination rooms, as Rich stipulated earlier.)

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On discarding loot:
When discarding a loot card that says to discard it to get a schtick, must the loot be equipped first, or can it be discarded from the Loot Stash at any time during your turn? ( V's "Valuable Knowledge" loot allows him to "discard to draw one schtick..." - must it be equipped for him to discard it and get a schtick?)

Similarly, what about discarding three drools' worth of ordinary loot to get a schtick: must that loot be equipped first, or does it matter?

(These "equip to discard" questions were points of contention in our gaming group, particularly the first. I say that "discard" means putting the card in the discard pile, regardless of whether it is taken from your Loot Stash or your Equipped Loot.)

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Can you use Area Effect schticks in the first battle upon entering a room? Page 18 says that you use Attack and the monsters use Defense. Is this an exception to the normal conduct of combat, where you always use Defense in the first battle upon entering a room, or does it mean that you cannot use Area Effect schticks for that first battle?

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The Gratuitous Nudity card says, "This card counts as a match card for the Hide schtick." Does that mean it boosts Hide, or what?

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If Elan's Poorly-Planned Illusion moves monsters into Safe Haven ("Battle Size in this room is always equal to 0"), do the monsters go away, or do they sit there waiting to attack?

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When the cards run out in the Loot Deck or the Battle Deck, is that it, or should discard piles be shuffled and recycled when necessary? (Or not shuffled but recycled?)

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Xykon has two red Xs - are they irrelevant, since you must keep him for bragging points, or can he be exchanged toward a schtick in addition to the bragging points? Or, since the dungeon is collapsing, is it impossible to acquire more schticks?

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Page 27 says, "Starting from the room in which Xykon was defeated and moving upward through the Dungeon, each Monster left in play is discarded." Does that mean all rooms on each level, or just the rooms on the path out of the dungeon?

If it's all rooms, should the monsters be removed, and the Loot be dropped, in any particular order? (The question is mainly only relevant in case the Loot deck runs out.) For example, should we have a house rule to vacate each level starting with the lowest and working up, and going from the left-most room to the right-most room on each level? Is there a method preferred by the game designers?

---

Are events such as card effects resolved as instants or interrupts? In other words, do effects generated by Screw This cards, schticks, equipped Loot, etc. take place immediately in the order they are played, or do they resolve in reverse order of play? (I can't remember the exact situation where this came up, but it had something to do with one effect possibly countering or magnifying another.)

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When two Roach monsters are played in a battle, say an ordinary roach and the roach king, how do you decide which one goes to the very bottom of the battle stack and which one is second from the bottom? (I can imagine a rules literalist going crazy over the paradox.)

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The FAQ appears inconsistent on how 'I Forgot They Could Do That' works with Leader and Horde. I agree with Uthrac and The Giant that once monsters are in play, they should not be un-played.

Would it be fair to say that when IFTCDT is played to negate either Leader or Horde, that the battle size is reduced accordingly, but that if the decrease results in a smaller battle size than the current battle stack, the monsters already in play simply stay where they are?

So if the battle size were normally 3, but it became 5 because of Leader or Horde, and IFTCDT is then used to negate the Leader or Horde after 4 monsters have been played, then the battle simply commences with 4 monsters in the room.

If that's agreeable, then can we get the FAQ updated to reflect this, in response to the question "Q) If you use the Screw This! card that allows you to negate abilities, how does this work for Leaders?" The consistency and simplicity of such a ruling would be appreciated!

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When a non-Monster Xykon's Lair card is played in a room, and it gets flipped when the last monster is defeated (thus deactivating its effect), is it subsequently un-flipped and re-activated if a player enters the empty room again and triggers a battle?

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Both Page 17 (PvP assistance) and Page 13, rule 2 ("you must offer that player *a* Loot card") seem to imply that you can only offer each player one Loot per battle. Page 17 rule 2 says "...assistance beyond the offer of one Loot card..."

Does this mean that PvP assistance is limited to only one Loot card per assisting player? If so, does this only apply to PvP? (The FAQ "Can you give more than one loot per battle?" states that you can offer multiple Loot to the same player.) If PvP assistance is NOT limited to one Loot card, then perhaps the FAQ answer should also stipulate that.

---

mikecyr's question on range and Bloodlust (post #59) seems to need an errata entry. The text on page 12, "any result that would lead to a win for the Monster is instead considered a draw," contradicts Bloodlust's text. I propose that the errata should reflect that since the Monster is out of its range, its Bloodlust would not apply, except in the Area Effect scenario described on page 18 (as the monsters are working together in response to the area attack).

===========

Much obliged for any help!
-m

[apegamer]

If Elan uses Poorly-Planned Illusion to move creatures, must they move in any particular order, or can Elan decide the order they end up moving and stacking into the new room(s)? (I'm assuming that in whatever order they are added, they must go on top of any existing monsters in the destination rooms, as Rich stipulated earlier.)

The monsters can be distributed into various rooms, and can be placed into those rooms in any order. They should be placed on top of any stack of creatures already in the room, though. Well, unless the monsters you're moving are pesky Demon Roaches, which skitter to the bottom.

On discarding loot:
When discarding a loot card that says to discard it to get a schtick, must the loot be equipped first, or can it be discarded from the Loot Stash at any time during your turn? ( V's "Valuable Knowledge" loot allows him to "discard to draw one schtick..." - must it be equipped for him to discard it and get a schtick?)

Similarly, what about discarding three drools' worth of ordinary loot to get a schtick: must that loot be equipped first, or does it matter?

It needn't be equipped - just show the other players that you're trading in the right cards.

Can you use Area Effect schticks in the first battle upon entering a room? Page 18 says that you use Attack and the monsters use Defense. Is this an exception to the normal conduct of combat, where you always use Defense in the first battle upon entering a room, or does it mean that you cannot use Area Effect schticks for that first battle?

The text on page 18 assumes you're attacking with the area effect shtick, but you attack and defend as normal when using area effect shticks. So if you move into a room, then you're defending (and cannot use Fireball, for instance.)

The Gratuitous Nudity card says, "This card counts as a match card for the Hide schtick." Does that mean it boosts Hide, or what?

It boosts Hide.

If Elan's Poorly-Planned Illusion moves monsters into Safe Haven ("Battle Size in this room is always equal to 0"), do the monsters go away, or do they sit there waiting to attack?

The monsters stay there and fight. Similarly, if you move a monster into any room with Battle Size 0, it would remain there. The Battle Size pertains only to populating the room.

When the cards run out in the Loot Deck or the Battle Deck, is that it, or should discard piles be shuffled and recycled when necessary? (Or not shuffled but recycled?)

When they're gone, they're gone. That's motivation to finish up the game before the deck runs out.

Xykon has two red Xs - are they irrelevant, since you must keep him for bragging points, or can he be exchanged toward a schtick in addition to the bragging points? Or, since the dungeon is collapsing, is it impossible to acquire more schticks?

You can still acquire shticks while the dungeon is collapsing (though it really only makes sense to trade in monsters, not loot, since loot is worth more victory points at the end of the game.) Xykon is worth 2 times the level bragging points (as mentioned in the FAQ.) You can trade him in for a shtick (along with another XP) but keep track that you killed him, so that you get the points at the end.

Page 27 says, "Starting from the room in which Xykon was defeated and moving upward through the Dungeon, each Monster left in play is discarded." Does that mean all rooms on each level, or just the rooms on the path out of the dungeon?

Every room in the dungeon is cleared of monsters.

If it's all rooms, should the monsters be removed, and the Loot be dropped, in any particular order? (The question is mainly only relevant in case the Loot deck runs out.) For example, should we have a house rule to vacate each level starting with the lowest and working up, and going from the left-most room to the right-most room on each level? Is there a method preferred by the game designers?

Start at the bottom (Xykon's Lair) and work your way up. If you run out, do not use cards from the discard pile - the rest of the monsters just don't drop loot.

Are events such as card effects resolved as instants or interrupts? In other words, do effects generated by Screw This cards, schticks, equipped Loot, etc. take place immediately in the order they are played, or do they resolve in reverse order of play? (I can't remember the exact situation where this came up, but it had something to do with one effect possibly countering or magnifying another.)

Screw This! cards are resolved in LIFO order. In other words, you can play a Screw This! card that negates, changes or amplifies previously-played Screw This! cards.

When two Roach monsters are played in a battle, say an ordinary roach and the roach king, how do you decide which one goes to the very bottom of the battle stack and which one is second from the bottom? (I can imagine a rules literalist going crazy over the paradox.)

Demon Roaches go to the bottom of the stack as they're played.

The FAQ appears inconsistent on how 'I Forgot They Could Do That' works with Leader and Horde. I agree with Uthrac and The Giant that once monsters are in play, they should not be un-played.

Would it be fair to say that when IFTCDT is played to negate either Leader or Horde, that the battle size is reduced accordingly, but that if the decrease results in a smaller battle size than the current battle stack, the monsters already in play simply stay where they are?

So if the battle size were normally 3, but it became 5 because of Leader or Horde, and IFTCDT is then used to negate the Leader or Horde after 4 monsters have been played, then the battle simply commences with 4 monsters in the room.

If that's agreeable, then can we get the FAQ updated to reflect this, in response to the question "Q) If you use the Screw This! card that allows you to negate abilities, how does this work for Leaders?" The consistency and simplicity of such a ruling would be appreciated!

I updated the FAQ a couple days ago to resolve the inconsistency, but didn't announce the change because we're still playtesting at least one other change that may go into the FAQ.

Cards are not removed from the battle, but the battle stops where it is, as IFTCDT is played, as you indicate.

When a non-Monster Xykon's Lair card is played in a room, and it gets flipped when the last monster is defeated (thus deactivating its effect), is it subsequently un-flipped and re-activated if a player enters the empty room again and triggers a battle?

They're one-shot only cards, so no.

Both Page 17 (PvP assistance) and Page 13, rule 2 ("you must offer that player *a* Loot card") seem to imply that you can only offer each player one Loot per battle. Page 17 rule 2 says "...assistance beyond the offer of one Loot card..."

Does this mean that PvP assistance is limited to only one Loot card per assisting player? If so, does this only apply to PvP? (The FAQ "Can you give more than one loot per battle?" states that you can offer multiple Loot to the same player.) If PvP assistance is NOT limited to one Loot card, then perhaps the FAQ answer should also stipulate that.

No, you can offer as many loot as you want to players for assistance, regardless whether it's PvP or PvM.

mikecyr's question on range and Bloodlust (post #59) seems to need an errata entry. The text on page 12, "any result that would lead to a win for the Monster is instead considered a draw," contradicts Bloodlust's text. I propose that the errata should reflect that since the Monster is out of its range, its Bloodlust would not apply, except in the Area Effect scenario described on page 18 (as the monsters are working together in response to the area attack).

Well I think people understand the spirit of the rule, but it might not hurt to put it in the FAQ so that the Rules Gestapo don't kick our door in.


As usual, Craig or Rich may have additional comments on this. Nothing's really officially official until it goes in the FAQ.

[Fujin]

When they're gone, they're gone. That's motivation to finish up the game before the deck runs out.

I disagree with this answer. On page 26 of the rules, under REMOVING TRAPS FROM THE GAME, it says "Do NOT put it [the traps] in the Loot Deck discard pile. If you do, then when the Loot Deck needs to be reshuffled, it will be filled with more traps than Loot!"

Additionally, not allowing the monster deck to be reshuffled will cause Xykon to be laughably easy, what with having no possibility of support!

Start at the bottom (Xykon's Lair) and work your way up. If you run out, do not use cards from the discard pile - the rest of the monsters just don't drop loot.

I disagree with this too. Why waste so much loot in Xykon's room when it'll be the first to collapse? You can grab two loot out of it and then its gone. I would say fill loot from top-down, in order to give people a better chance to grab it!

[papertygre]

Hi, I've only read through the first four pages of the thread so far, so I hope these aren't duplicate questions.

- When can Durkon's healing schtick be used? Does it have to be on Durkon's player's turn? Does it have to be in a particular phase of a turn? Can the player use it when resting, before flipping up all their cards? The rules for schticks don't talk about timing for non-battle schticks, and the text on the schtick itself doesn't either give timing requirements or say "anytime".

- How many assistance-for-loot proposals can be extended by a player for a particular battle? The rules don't seem to say, but we thought we found some wording that implied that only one other character can assist in a single battle. However, the wording of one of the answers in the FAQ at http://www.apegames.com/oots/oots-dod/OOTSDoD-FAQ.pdf as of 10/25/2006 suggests that multiple players can assist.

Also, a comment on something we found confusing when getting started: it was hard to find the part that explained how and when new Battle Deck cards are drawn. As far as we could tell it was only mentioned in an inset box, not anywhere in the "getting started" area or main rules covering the Battle Deck.

[Jack Mann]

In a normal battle, all the other players can assist if they so choose and are on the same level. They can assist for as much loot as the person requesting assistance is willing to offer.

The only exception is PvP battles. Any given player can only assist one of the people in the duel. So, if Belkar and Roy are fighting, Haley can help one, but not the other.

[Rysith]

With regards to ranged attacks:

I played Vaarsuvias in our 1st game and noted that the Fireball schtick had a range of 4. I went to use this on a monster with a range <4. How does the monster defend?

We played it that the monster was effectively "fighting with no schticks" so therefore as monster's don't roll a defense roll, I would win automatically. The only monsters that had a chance when their range was <0 were any with the "Tricky" ability which then gave them a Defense score of "10" as per the "Tricky" ability to give them +10 (so 0 from lack of range +10 for "Tricky" = 10 total Defense.)

Is this the right way Fireball and any other ranged attacks work against monsters? Some players argued it was too powerful that I could automatically kill these monsters, my argument was that I had to rest after each fight of this type to recover the then flipped Fireball schtick

[Kumquat]

Durkon's Healing schtick can be used at any time except when he is fleeing.

If the monster has range less than the attack against it then it can not attack back, meaning that if you fail to hurt it then, instead of suffering the monsters win conditions (a wound and whatever other abilities it has) the player takes no ill effects, so no wounds and such.

[Rysith]

So specifically, a range attack against a creature with no range defense means that the creature is defeated automatically?

[Totally Guy]

The combat is your attack value against their defence value. If you win you kill them. If they win then nothing happens. The only risk you take is possibly wasting your action and having to flip the shtick, you don't risk taking a wound.

What I'd like to know about area effects is if you can target monsters in more than one room. Lets say V has a boosted fireball that targets four monsters and there are two rooms of two monsters within range. In our games we have assumed that V targets a room rather than stacked targets.

Also turn undead is an area effect, when you use it do you need to find the highest att/def value in the monster stack or the highest att/def value of undead in the stack? If it's just the undead is Xykon included when attempting to remove his zombie support?

Use of this area effect ceases combat? Even if there was only one undead targeted?

Side story... When trying to rectify the invincible Xykon scenario (which has only happened once in many many games (he got to 66att/def)) we tried that but then decided to hold out for an "I forgot they could do that" which led to "I rest, I flip What would Thor do, I rest again", which was a funny combo. Durkon had a huge number of screw this cards and only lost because a player got lucky with drawing a new battle hand.

[Rysith]

No everyone is missing the point :)

If you use a ranged attack of say range 4 against a monster that has a range of <4 the rules state that the monster cannot defend against the attack. Therefore we concluded that since it cannot attack it is defeated automatically. Is this the correct interpretation?

[Gamer5389]

If the monster doesn't have enough range to reach the attacker then "the Monster cannot win the battle; any result that would lead to a win for the Monster is instead considered a draw" (12). Other than that, the roll plays out normally. You still roll against its defense, only exception being that if your result is lower than its defense you don't get a wound.

For Area Effects, it states that you only take the highest defense of that monster that is directly targeted. A two target fireball wouldn't take the 4th monster's defense. Likewise a non-undead wouldn't count against for Turn Undead. Here's the Giant's ruling on TU against Xykon.

"Turn Undead specifically says right on the card that you can't use it against Xykon. Treat Xykon as simply not being there for the purpose of using that shtick; the card just ignores him. Note that you CAN use it at Range 0 even if Xykon is the top monster, it just doesn't affect him. Technically, the top monster IS undead, even if it is a monster with a specific immunity to the shtick, making the conditions needed to use the card true. Thus, you can use the shtick.

Turning Xykon's undead out from under him is a great strategy, by the way. You bypass Xykon's ultrahigh Defense because he cannot be affected by the card!"

[BlackDragon1200]

1. What would happen if while a player is asking for assistance in battle i used dun dun DUN!!!! to flip the Battle Shtick they chose to use in that battle?

2. If i sucessfully use Poorly-Planned Illusion and choose to move the monster into the next room, if that room already has monsters in it does the moved monster go to the top or bottom of the battle stack?

Thanks!

[The Giant]

I disagree with this answer. On page 26 of the rules, under REMOVING TRAPS FROM THE GAME, it says "Do NOT put it [the traps] in the Loot Deck discard pile. If you do, then when the Loot Deck needs to be reshuffled, it will be filled with more traps than Loot!"

Additionally, not allowing the monster deck to be reshuffled will cause Xykon to be laughably easy, what with having no possibility of support!

I disagree with this too. Why waste so much loot in Xykon's room when it'll be the first to collapse? You can grab two loot out of it and then its gone. I would say fill loot from top-down, in order to give people a better chance to grab it!

My understanding, based on the rules, was that you DO reshuffle the Loot and Battle Decks, but not in the middle of a turn. So that if you run out of Monsters in the middle of filling up a high Battle Size, the deck is not reshuffled until the end of the turn. Same thing with the Loot, which would mean that when the Monsters vanish with Xykon's death, you deal out Loot into the dungeon until the current deck runs out, then you're done. This one will need further behind-the-scenes consultation, though.

You do, however, deal Loot from the bottom of the dungeon up when it collapses, to prevent people from hanging around the Entrance to grab free Loot while someone kills Xykon, then grabbing the bonus for being the first to exit, too.

- When can Durkon's healing schtick be used? Does it have to be on Durkon's player's turn? Does it have to be in a particular phase of a turn? Can the player use it when resting, before flipping up all their cards? The rules for schticks don't talk about timing for non-battle schticks, and the text on the schtick itself doesn't either give timing requirements or say "anytime".

Cure Additional Wounds can be used at any time. Note, however, that if Durkon is fleeing the dungeon, he cannot heal himself until after he has reached the Dungeon Entrance. He could still heal others, however.

Also, you can't flip the shtick between the time you learn you are losing your last Wound and the time you actually lose it, or any other silly ways of trying to retroactively prevent fleeing the dungeon. Use common sense.

- How many assistance-for-loot proposals can be extended by a player for a particular battle? The rules don't seem to say, but we thought we found some wording that implied that only one other character can assist in a single battle. However, the wording of one of the answers in the FAQ at http://www.apegames.com/oots/oots-dod/OOTSDoD-FAQ.pdf as of 10/25/2006 suggests that multiple players can assist.

You may ask for assistance from any number of players, except those who you are battling in Player vs. Player combat, obviously.

With regards to ranged attacks:

I played Vaarsuvias in our 1st game and noted that the Fireball schtick had a range of 4. I went to use this on a monster with a range <4. How does the monster defend?

We played it that the monster was effectively "fighting with no schticks" so therefore as monster's don't roll a defense roll, I would win automatically. The only monsters that had a chance when their range was <0 were any with the "Tricky" ability which then gave them a Defense score of "10" as per the "Tricky" ability to give them +10 (so 0 from lack of range +10 for "Tricky" = 10 total Defense.)

Is this the right way Fireball and any other ranged attacks work against monsters? Some players argued it was too powerful that I could automatically kill these monsters, my argument was that I had to rest after each fight of this type to recover the then flipped Fireball schtick

No, you are playing this incorrectly.

A Monster attacked at Range that cannot respond still has a Defense score, and you must still beat that Defense score with your die-roll-plus-Attack. The only difference is in what happens if you FAIL to defeat the Monster. If you lose a battle against a Monster without sufficient Range to fight back, you suffer no ill effects. You don't lose a Wound or get paralyzed or anyhting else; it's treated like a draw.

Incidentally, based on your question, I can see that you are playing the rules on battling without a shtick incorrectly, too. If a player battles without a shtick, they do NOT lose automatically. They still roll the die, they just don't get to add bonus to that roll. A win by a player without a shtick does not defeat a Monster, it counts as a draw.

What I'd like to know about area effects is if you can target monsters in more than one room. Lets say V has a boosted fireball that targets four monsters and there are two rooms of two monsters within range. In our games we have assumed that V targets a room rather than stacked targets.

No, you can only target Monsters in one room at a time. If you can taget more Monsters than there are occupants in the room, the excess are wasted.

Also turn undead is an area effect, when you use it do you need to find the highest att/def value in the monster stack or the highest att/def value of undead in the stack?

Just the undead.

If it's just the undead is Xykon included when attempting to remove his zombie support?

No, Xykon isn't targeted by Turn Undead.

Use of this area effect ceases combat? Even if there was only one undead targeted?

I'm not understanding this question, sorry.

1. What would happen if while a player is asking for assistance in battle i used dun dun DUN!!!! to flip the Battle Shtick they chose to use in that battle?

They can choose another shtick before they roll the die. If they don't have another shtick available, they must battle without one.

2. If i sucessfully use Poorly-Planned Illusion and choose to move the monster into the next room, if that room already has monsters in it does the moved monster go to the top or bottom of the battle stack?

Top.

[apegamer]

My understanding, based on the rules, was that you DO reshuffle the Loot and Battle Decks, but not in the middle of a turn.

Right. I looked this up after I responded (I should have done those steps in the reverse order.) In all of the testing and demos that I've done, this situation hasn't arisen, though one of the other playtesters (Krago on this forum) said that he'd seen it.

[Moebius]

My understanding, based on the rules, was that you DO reshuffle the Loot and Battle Decks, but not in the middle of a turn. So that if you run out of Monsters in the middle of filling up a high Battle Size, the deck is not reshuffled until the end of the turn. Same thing with the Loot, which would mean that when the Monsters vanish with Xykon's death, you deal out Loot into the dungeon until the current deck runs out, then you're done. This one will need further behind-the-scenes consultation, though.

You do, however, deal Loot from the bottom of the dungeon up when it collapses, to prevent people from hanging around the Entrance to grab free Loot while someone kills Xykon, then grabbing the bonus for being the first to exit, too.

Hmmm. Nasty thought.... You take on Xykon, with a huge stack of monsters under him. You manage to win, and Xykon dies and drops loot. His whole 'support stack' of monsters vanishes, and also drops loot. Can you then play 'Gimme Gimme GIMME' and take the huge stack of loot? Or does 'ggG' not work because you didn't defeat the last monster - it just vanished?

[The Giant]

Hmmm. Nasty thought.... You take on Xykon, with a huge stack of monsters under him. You manage to win, and Xykon dies and drops loot. His whole 'support stack' of monsters vanishes, and also drops loot. Can you then play 'Gimme Gimme GIMME' and take the huge stack of loot? Or does 'ggG' not work because you didn't defeat the last monster - it just vanished?

Monsters that are discarded do not count towards being the last Monster in the room; they are treated as simply never having been there at all. If you defeat one or more Monsters in a room, and then any or all remaining Monsters are discarded by any effect, you are considered to have defeated the last Monster in the room that was available to battle, and may pick up your 2 Loot for defeating the last Monster. Therefore, yes, you would be able to use Gimme Gimme GIMME after killing Xykon by virtue of having beat the last Monster that you could battle on that turn in that room.

Note that this principle extends to any effect that discards Monsters...If you are in a room with 2 Monsters, and you beat the first one in battle but used the Muskrat 3000 Loot card effect to discard the second one, you still defeated the last Monster in battle in that room and can pick up 2 Loot that turn. However, if you are in a room with 1 Monster and use the Muskrat 3000 to discard it, you didn't defeat ANY Monsters at all, and do not qualify to pick up 2 Loot.

[chindogu]

What happens if a player used Muskrat 3000 to discard Xyklon?

[Argus]

What happens if a player used Muskrat 3000 to discard Xyklon?

One of the other players opens the rulebook to page 30 and points out that the Xykon Special ability includes "cannot be discarded by any effect (other than beating in battle)".

[The Giant]

What happens if a player used Muskrat 3000 to discard Xyklon?

One of the other players opens the rulebook to page 30 and points out that the Xykon Special ability includes "cannot be discarded by any effect (other than beating in battle)".

Exactly. Xykon cannot be discarded by the Muskrat 3000, or any effect other than defeating him in battle.