This might be a silly question, but...

[TaintedLight]

Do classes like Mystic Theurge and Fochlucan Lyrist that grant you +1 spellcasting class give you higher level spells as well? If I am a Wiz 5/Clr 5/Mystic Theurge 4, my caster levels are Wizard 9 and Cleric 9, correct? Does that mean that I have access to 5th level arcane and 5th level divine spells, or do I just have a crapton of 3rd and lower level spells for each?

[Dublock]

I believe so however I'm not the most experienced one, but I'm sure thats how it works.

[Fax Celestis]

You do indeed gain new spells.

[TaintedLight]

You do indeed gain new spells.

Does that mean that my DM is totally gimping the class by telling me that the rules state that you just gain spells in levels you already posess?

[Fax Celestis]

Does that mean that my DM is totally gimping the class by telling me that the rules state that you just gain spells in levels you already posess?

Yes. Seriously. Completely. Utterly.

What class, in particular, are we talking about? There are some that only advance CL and not spells.

EDIT: I'm stupid. You said Mystic Theurge. Check this relevant text:

Spells per Day
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

[TaintedLight]

I was talking about MT, so I will talk to him about that. I thought to myself that it sounded like a whole lot of gimpy levels too. Does Dragon Disciple work this way as well?

[Fax Celestis]

No. Dragon Disciple explicitly states it only gives you bonus slots on levels you already have. Also, see my edit above.

[TaintedLight]

Alright, thanks for the help.

[monty]

Dragon Disciple just sucks. Not much you can do about that.

[Blue Paladin]

The main problem is that the DM is being strictly literal. The Mystic Theurge ability states "Spells Per Day", and not Spells Known. For some classes (eg Cleric, Druid) this distinction is trivial. They have the slot, pray for the spell and get it. Badda bing.

However Wizards have to research their spells; by the strictest reading, they only get their two free spells by leveling in Wizard. Also by the strict reading, Bards and Sorcerors don't advance on their "Spells Known" chart.

It's an extreme reading, but justifiable. Just throwing that out there.

[monty]

I think that may be a misprint, or they were deliberately trying to gimp spontaneous casters. Archmage, for example, explicitly states that it advances spells known.

[Fax Celestis]

The main problem is that the DM is being strictly literal. The Mystic Theurge ability states "Spells Per Day", and not Spells Known. For some classes (eg Cleric, Druid) this distinction is trivial. They have the slot, pray for the spell and get it. Badda bing.

However Wizards have to research their spells; by the strictest reading, they only get their two free spells by leveling in Wizard. Also by the strict reading, Bards and Sorcerors don't advance on their "Spells Known" chart.

It's an extreme reading, but justifiable. Just throwing that out there.

See, I read the OP as stating that they received neither new spells or new levels of spells, merely advancing spell slots on existing tiers of spells.

Which is...

...well, I don't know HOW you come to that conclusion.

[kamikasei]

I think that may be a misprint, or they were deliberately trying to gimp spontaneous casters. Archmage, for example, explicitly states that it advances spells known.

Archmage and Loremaster, but not MT or Arcane Trickster. ...They ever errata that, or clarify their intent?

[Zeful]

The main problem is that the DM is being strictly literal. The Mystic Theurge ability states "Spells Per Day", and not Spells Known. For some classes (eg Cleric, Druid) this distinction is trivial. They have the slot, pray for the spell and get it. Badda bing.

However Wizards have to research their spells; by the strictest reading, they only get their two free spells by leveling in Wizard. Also by the strict reading, Bards and Sorcerors don't advance on their "Spells Known" chart.

It's an extreme reading, but justifiable. Just throwing that out there.

Wizards gain spells through their Spellbook feature not their Spellcasting feature (like core divine casters), and therefore don't gain those additional spells unless they level in Wizard specifically, as no Spellcasting PRC advances the Spellbook class feature (except Geometer I think). They all use the Spellcasting (or is it spells?) class feature.

As for the Spells known issue. That's exactly how those classes were intended to be written, no ettara exists and most spellcasting PRCs I've seen (which don't extend far beyond core) don't include the Spells known addendum.

[Fax Celestis]

Wizards gain spells through their Spellbook feature not their Spellcasting feature (like core divine casters), and therefore don't gain those additional spells unless they level in Wizard specifically, as no Spellcasting PRC advances the Spellbook class feature (except Geometer I think). They all use the Spellcasting (or is it spells?) class feature.

False. Most PrCs explicitly state they advance spellcasting and spells known.

[Telonius]

All that means is that the Wizard doesn't get the two spells free, not that they can't get them period. Which is really not all that much of a gimp.

[Zeful]

False. Most PrCs explicitly state they advance spellcasting and spells known.

I only have 3 non-core books, and I don't look to much at PrCs anyway. I'll amend my statement.

Telonius: You'd be surprised how many people would miss that.

[Kesnit]

All that means is that the Wizard doesn't get the two spells free, not that they can't get them period. Which is really not all that much of a gimp.

Except scrolls for high-level spells are expensive. An argument can be made that high-level wizards are so powerful that forcing them to use some of their WBL to buy new spells would be an equalizer, but it's still a gimp, esp when they have to buy scrolls for spells they would get free as well as scrolls for spells they just want.

[Zeful]

Except scrolls for high-level spells are expensive. An argument can be made that high-level wizards are so powerful that forcing them to use some of their WBL to buy new spells would be an equalizer, but it's still a gimp, esp when they have to buy scrolls for spells they would get free as well as scrolls for spells they just want.

It was their choice to choose a PrC instead of continued advancement in the Wizard class. I see nothing wrong with this.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Except scrolls for high-level spells are expensive. An argument can be made that high-level wizards are so powerful that forcing them to use some of their WBL to buy new spells would be an equalizer, but it's still a gimp, esp when they have to buy scrolls for spells they would get free as well as scrolls for spells they just want.

Yeah. Scrolls. Who does those again? Copy the spells directly out of others' books. Much cheaper.

[Zeful]

Yeah. Scrolls. Who does those again? Copy the spells directly out of others' books. Much cheaper.

Assuming there are other wizards nearby. Not always true.

Especially if all wizards are Tippy wizards.

[Blue Paladin]

Most PrCs explicitly state they advance spellcasting and spells known.

Which was my point, really. The Mystic Theurge does not have an explicit advancement for spells known. Even in the text you quoted ("adds the level of mystic theurge... then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly"), Spells Known is left out. For Sorcerors/Bards, that's crippling (to the point of unplayability at higher levels). At least Wizards can get scrolls and spellbooks.

[littlechicory]

Dragon Disciple just sucks. Not much you can do about that.

I'll beg to differ. My scout/warmage is fast turning into a melee monster thanks to her levels in brass DD. Now she can skirmish up to people and BREATH WEAPON IN YOUR FACE, then smack them upside the head with a Chill Touch, then skirmish away and unload a couple of flaming crossbow bolts while they're still numb from the cold. All while protected from harm by those nifty natural armor bonuses.

And she's shiny. ^_^

[The Glyphstone]

I'll beg to differ. My scout/warmage is fast turning into a melee monster thanks to her levels in brass DD. Now she can skirmish up to people and BREATH WEAPON IN YOUR FACE, then smack them upside the head with a Chill Touch, then skirmish away and unload a couple of flaming crossbow bolts while they're still numb from the cold. All while protected from harm by those nifty natural armor bonuses.

And she's shiny. ^_^

To elaborate - Dragon Disciple sucks as a Casting class. It's a fairly acceptable addition to a melee character who's dipped a bit into a spontaneous caster class, or a semi-gish without full casting aims. It's also incredible with Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest.

[monty]

It's also incredible with Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest.

Eh? Elaborate, please.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Eh? Elaborate, please.

You can reach Ur-Priest 10 by level 15. That means you have 5 levels where you can't advance spellcasting and gain anything. Dragon Disciple gives you 9th level slots. 4 additional Miracles is just bad.

[Fax Celestis]

You can reach Ur-Priest 10 by level 15. That means you have 5 levels where you can't advance spellcasting and gain anything. Dragon Disciple gives you 9th level slots. 4 additional Miracles is just bad.

You can advance CL, just not new slots. It's a trade-off: do you want better spells, or more of them?

[monty]

You can reach Ur-Priest 10 by level 15. That means you have 5 levels where you can't advance spellcasting and gain anything. Dragon Disciple gives you 9th level slots. 4 additional Miracles is just bad.

The thing is, by that point, spells per day are almost meaningless, since it's fairly trivial to escape and rest when you need to in most cases. I'd rather take the CL advancement.