SAD Gestalt

[RMS Oceanic]

A problem that Gestalt can incur is increased Multiple Ability Dependancy (MAD) when compared to regular playing. Just for kicks, I thought it might be fun if we compiled a list of gestalt class combinations that could get away with putting everything into a single ability score. Feel free to contribute.

Strength
Fighter//Barbarian
Barbarian//Ranger
Ranger//Fighter
Fighter//Warblade
Warblade//Ranger
Warblade//Barbarian
Warblade//Crusader
Crusader//Fighter

Dexterity
Rogue//Ranger
Rogue//Fighter
Rogue//Swashbuckler
Rogue//Scout
Fighter//Ranger
Fighter//Swashbuckler
Fighter//Scout
Ranger//Swashbuckler
Ranger//Scout
Scout//Swashbuckler
Swordsage//Rogue
Swordsage//Ranger
Swordsage//Swashbuckler
Swordsage//Scout

Constitution
Fighter//Barbarian
Fighter//Knight
Fighter//Dragon Shaman
Dragon Shaman//Knight
Dragon Shaman//Barbarian
Warblade//Fighter
Warblade//Knight
Warblade//Barbarian
Warblade//Dragon Shaman
Warblade//Crusader
Crusader//Knight

Intelligence
Wizard//Factotum
Wizard//Rogue
Wizard//Beguiler
Wizard//Psion
Wizard//Duskblade
Beguiler//Rogue
Beguiler//Factotum
Beguiler//Psion
Beguiler//Duskblade
Factotum//Rogue
Factotum//Psion
Factotum//Duskblade
Psion//Rogue
Psion//Duskblade
Duskblade//Rogue
Warblade//Wizard
Warblade//Rogue
Warblade//Factotum
Warblade//Psion
Warblade//Duskblade
Warblade//Swashbuckler

Wisdom
Cleric//Monk
Cleric//Druid
Cleric//Psychic Warrior
Cleric//Spirit Shaman
Cleric//Swordsage
Druid//Monk
Druid//Psychic Warrior
Druid//Spirit Shaman
Druid//Swordsage
Monk//Psychic Warrior
Monk//Spirit Shaman
Monk//Swordsage
Psychic Warrior//Spirit Shaman
Psychic Warrior//Swordsage
Swordsage//Spirit Shaman

Charisma
Sorceror//Paladin
Sorceror//Warmage
Sorceror//Favoured Soul
Sorceror//Bard
Sorceror//Warlock
Sorceror//Wilder
Sorceror//Dragon Shaman
Paladin//Warmage
Paladin//Favoured Soul
Paladin//Warlock
Paladin//Wilder
Paladin//Dragon Shaman
Paladin//Crusader
Warmage//Favoured Soul
Warmage//Warlock
Warmage//Wilder
Warmage//Dragon Shaman
Favoured Soul//Warlock
Favoured Soul//Wilder
Favoured Soul//Dragon Shaman
Warlock//Wilder
Warlock//Dragon Shaman
Wilder//Dragon Shaman

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You left Warblade out of the Int list. Monk can be on any of the 3 mental lists due to feats changing the AC around.

[Kurald Galain]

You know, this would be easier to read if under any ability score you simply listed the classes SAD'ding with that, rather than listing every single permutation of two of those classes...

[Burley]

Also, I argue that the Warlock class is not ability dependant at all, and should pop up in the Dex column at least with rogue.

[Toxic Avenger]

Paladin//Bard could also be added to the Charisma column.

In case anyone brings up the alignment conflict, Devoted Performer makes this possible, as well as both the Paladin of Freedom and the Paladin of Slaughter.

[JeminiZero]

Archivist can use Int, and work well with almost any other Int requiring class. (although for Balance reasons, you may not want to allow a Wizard//Archivist)

Dragonfire Adepts are in many respects spiffed up Dragon Shamans, and also require Con and Cha. Although they suffer ASF, and are unsuitable for pairing with a martial class. Best used with a primary caster.

Dread Necromancers require Cha, and also suffer ASF. Again, best used with another primary caster.

[Heliomance]

Paladin//Bard could also be added to the Charisma column.

In case anyone brings up the alignment conflict, Devoted Performer makes this possible, as well as both the Paladin of Freedom and the Paladin of Slaughter.

Also any reasonable GM waiving the non-lawful requirement of the bard. Seriously, why is that even there?

[Fostire]

Also, I argue that the Warlock class is not ability dependant at all, and should pop up in the Dex column at least with rogue.

Agree with that. Warlock//Rogue is an awesome gestalt combination that only depends on dex. Warlock doesn't depend on charisma at all, it only uses it for save DCs and the invocations that allow saves aren't very good anyway.

[monty]

Warlock doesn't really need anything. It's probably the only class that would be viable in 0 point buy.

[Mephit]

Wisdom
Monk//Swordsage

A lie! Monk Wis-to-AC doesn't stack with the Swordsage's bonus. And the monk doesn't really have any other useful class features based on Wis (except for Stunning Fist, but a 1-level dip isn't exactly a gestalt build), it probably shouldn't be up there. And the character wouldn't be able to use Armor, since he'd lose most of his monk class features.

[Fostire]

Warlock doesn't really need anything. It's probably the only class that would be viable in 0 point buy.

Yes, but a warlock//rogue really benefits from dex (mostly on the rogue side), it is useful for the rogue skills and the EB attack bonus (although since its a touch attack you'll probably hit most of the time anyway).

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Warlock doesn't really need anything. It's probably the only class that would be viable in 0 point buy.

Druid.

Your animal companion doesn't rely on your stats, and after level 5 you can contribute in melee. And you've still got other neat abilities that don't depend on stats.

[wadledo]

Druid.

Your animal companion doesn't rely on your stats, and after level 5 you can contribute in melee. And you've still got other neat abilities that don't depend on stats.

And at 12(possibly before), you can cast level 1 spells!

[Optimystik]

Also any reasonable GM waiving the non-lawful requirement of the bard. Seriously, why is that even there?

Because learning to be a master musician should require little to no dedication! Or something...

[streakster]

Agree with that. Warlock//Rogue is an awesome gestalt combination that only depends on dex. Warlock doesn't depend on charisma at all, it only uses it for save DCs and the invocations that allow saves aren't very good anyway.

Ahem. Utterdark Blast? Word of Changing?

But yeah, you can build a warlock with low CHA.

[Eldariel]

(although for Balance reasons, you may not want to allow a Wizard//Archivist)

It's actually less powerful than most of the high-powered Gestalt builds since all adding Wizard to an Archivist adds is extra longetivity with the extra spell slots. Wizard/Psion, Archivist/Psion, and especially Wizard/Factotum or Archivist/Factotum are far more powerful. Warblade-multiclass is competitive too.

[ocato]

I might suggest that you add Bard//Marshal to the Charisma list. Or Bard//Dragon Shaman for that matter.

[Fostire]

Ahem. Utterdark Blast? Word of Changing?

Oh. Right. I was thinking on the lower level ones.

[monty]

Druid.

Your animal companion doesn't rely on your stats, and after level 5 you can contribute in melee. And you've still got other neat abilities that don't depend on stats.

You have no spellcasting, and with 8 Con you won't be doing much in melee unless you want to be dead. That leaves...the animal companion.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You have no spellcasting, and with 8 Con you won't be doing much in melee unless you want to be dead. That leaves...the animal companion.

So with 0 PB you're roughly similar to a Fighter or Monk with 28.

[monty]

So with 0 PB you're roughly similar to a Fighter or Monk with 28.

True, but you have to protect the squishy commoner.

[mangosta71]

Housecat should be added into the Dex table.

[Fax Celestis]

Spellthief//X and Hexblade//X should be added to the Cha table, imo. Hexblade//Spellthief is a nasty combo indeed.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

True, but you have to protect the squishy commoner.

With Natural Bond and a Fleshraker at level 1 (dependent on DM agreement, but with 0 PB I'd hope they'd cut you a bit of slack), that shouldn't be a problem. Eventually, get an Elephant and you can ride safely protected in its mouth. Actually, after level 5 you can just wildshape into something small and hide on/in your animal companion all day.

Alternativly, put all your stat boosts into Con, take Improved Toughness and Extra Toughness at 3 & 6 (for a whopping 11 extra HP at level 6), or Flyby Attack, and be a cautious precision/opportunist striker with your wildshape. Which is also useful for scouting, getting around obstacles/traps, alternative transportation, and more.

[Mephit]

With Natural Bond and a Fleshraker at level 1

Wait, what? How? The Natural Bond feat can't exceed your HD. So DM agreement doesn't come into that, unless you mean homebrewing.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Wait, what? How? The Natural Bond feat can't exceed your HD. So DM agreement doesn't come into that, unless you mean homebrewing.

Huh. What do you know.

Well, armored riding dog until level 4 then. Meanwhile, play the tiniest race (without LA) that you can.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Huh. What do you know.

Well, armored riding dog until level 4 then. Meanwhile, play the tiniest race (without LA) that you can.

Anthropomorphic Bat. That way you can cast, on occasion.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Anthropomorphic Bat. That way you can cast, on occasion.

Yeah, that lets you just hide in the cleric's backpack while your animal does all the fighting. Plus you can scout at level 1.

[Townopolis]

Knight should be added to the CHA list, if Paladin and Crusader are on it. All the classes defining abilities rely heavily on your charisma.

Just a note, but paladin//crusader isn't a terribly good gestalt. Take one of those with knight and it's just plain better.

[Jack_Simth]

You know, this would be easier to read if under any ability score you simply listed the classes SAD'ding with that, rather than listing every single permutation of two of those classes...

In some cases, it's kinda needful. A Monk or Ninja, for instance, has a fairly bad case of MAD out of the box - but if you put Druid on the other side, so that you can get Wildshape to cover Strength and Dex, then suddenly it doesn't need nearly so much of anything but Wisdom and Con.

Likewise, certain class combos are only MAD when you attempt to fill both classes' primary role.

A Paladin//Sorcerer, who plays both an Arcanist and a Front-Line melee character, is going to be very, very MAD.

A Sorcerer//paladin, who plays as an Arcanist and mostly just uses the Paladin side for the saves, healing, and hit die is less MAD than a standard Sorcerer (doesn't need as much Con for HP due to the larger hit die and higher base Fort save; doesn't need as much Wis due to Charisma to saves; and so on).

The Paladin//sorcerer, who plays as a front-liner and only uses Sorcerer spells for long-duration buffs and the occasional spell without somatic components doesn't have any more of a case of MAD than does a standard Paladin.