Ultimate Tripper with LA +0?

[Frosty]

I've been thinking of how to get Tripping to work reliably without using an overly strange/cheesy race. And I think I've got an idea that'll make it really hard for others to resist your trip attempts.

Do something like: Factotum3/Warblade11. Depending on your point buy and how much charisma you'll have,you might also throw in a level of Marshall.

Factotum 3 let's you add your Int bonus to Strength checks (which Tripping is). Warblade 11 let's you add your Int bonus to all Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, overrun, Sunder, or Trip attempts. A level of Marshall lets you add your Charisma modifier to all those same things. Being a Factotum, you can use Enlarge Person on yourself as a Spell-like ability to add a +4 to your Trip attempt.

So, if you have a modest 22 Int, 14 Str, and 14 Cha at level 15, your trip check is 6 (Factotum) + 6 (Warblade 11) + 2 (Marhsall) +2 (your actual STR) + 4 (being Large) = +20. You get 1d20+20 on your trip attempt. Awesome.

Can anyone else add things that'll ensure that your Trip works?

[Criz Reborn]

you cant add the same stat mod to a check twice even if you have more than 1 ability that would allow you to do so

[Sstoopidtallkid]

you cant add the same stat mod to a check twice even if you have more than 1 ability that would allow you to do so

You can as long as they're not from the same source. This is what lets the Monk and Swordsage AC stack(not really, but close enough). In this case, it's one ability for Int to Str-based checks, and one for Int to Trip. They're definitely not the same, so they stack.

[Magnor Criol]

You can as long as they're not from the same source. This is what lets the Monk and Swordsage AC stack(not really, but close enough). In this case, it's one ability for Int to Str-based checks, and one for Int to Trip. They're definitely not the same, so they stack.

The Factotum's trick allows you to add one ability modifier to another ability's checks. The Warblade's allows you to add your Int mod to certain combat maneuvers. In the case of tripping (and a few others), they happen to be the same thing, but they aren't always overlapping - for example, a warblade wouldn't add your Int modifier to your strength check to lift a heavy object, while a Factotum would. So they're different abilities, and therefore I think they stack, by RAW.

I'd agree with this by RAW, though if I were a DM I'd probably still throw a book at whoever tries to pull it.

[Frosty]

You can as long as they're not from the same source. This is what lets the Monk and Swordsage AC stack(not really, but close enough). In this case, it's one ability for Int to Str-based checks, and one for Int to Trip. They're definitely not the same, so they stack.

Technically Monk and Swordsage can't stack due to Swordsage AC ability working only with Light armor not with No armor, but your point stands.

[Emperor Tippy]

you cant add the same stat mod to a check twice even if you have more than 1 ability that would allow you to do so

Yeah, your wrong. So long as they come from different sources, aren't the same type of bonus, and don't replace each other they stack (If both said, for example, that they replaced Str with Int for trip attempts then they wouldn't stack).

@Frosty
Moving the points from Cha to Int would be more effective.

A level of Psychic Warrior will get you expansion. Which technically stacks with Enlarge Person, meaning another bonus.

Improved Trip also gets you another +4.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Psychic Warrior can be a decent tripper with Expansion.

Go Human and get the feat Jotunbrud from Races of Faerun and you've basically got Powerful Build. That can be added onto almost any tripper build.

Psychic Warrior 15, Jotunbrud Human, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, EWP: Tigerskull Club (FB); +1 Sweeping Tigerskull Club, Armbands of Might; Augmented Expansion; Str 24

Trip +7 Str, +12 Size, +4 Weapon, +2 Armbands, +4 Improved Trip = +29 Trip check.

[Frosty]

@Frosty
Moving the points from Cha to Int would be more effective.
Improved Trip also gets you another +4.

Yeah, forgot Improved Trip

So you would drop the Marshall level?

[tyckspoon]

A level of Psychic Warrior will get you expansion. Which technically stacks with Enlarge Person, meaning another bonus.

Whut? Enlarge Person states 'does not stack with other magical effects that increase size'. Standard magic-psionics transparency would include Expansion in that. Expansion has even less space for loopholes, and states it as a general rule: Multiple effects that increase size do not stack. What's your technicality for combining them?

[Emperor Tippy]

The Factotum's trick allows you to add one ability modifier to another ability's checks. The Warblade's allows you to add your Int mod to certain combat maneuvers. In the case of tripping (and a few others), they happen to be the same thing, but they aren't always overlapping - for example, a warblade wouldn't add your Int modifier to your strength check to lift a heavy object, while a Factotum would. So they're different abilities, and therefore I think they stack, by RAW.

I'd agree with this by RAW, though if I were a DM I'd probably still throw a book at whoever tries to pull it.

Factotum 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 7

Int to damage 3 times.

Factotum 3/ Exemplar 8
Int to Initiative twice.

Factotum 16/ Monk 1 with the feat Kung Fu genius
Int to AC twice.

Exemplar 8 with the feat Insightful Reflexes
Int to Reflex saves twice.

There are lots of fun ways to stack Int if you build for it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Whut? Enlarge Person states 'does not stack with other magical effects that increase size'. Standard magic-psionics transparency would include Expansion in that. Expansion has even less space for loopholes, and states it as a general rule: Multiple effects that increase size do not stack. What's your technicality for combining them?

Me being sleepy and not noticing the last sentence of expansion? That's a technically.

[Frosty]

Add in a fewlevels of Warblade for more Int to Reflex goodness.

[Emperor Tippy]

Add in a fewlevels of Warblade for more Int to Reflex goodness.

Yeah. I just wish there was a way to get Int to Fort saves, that doesn't require paying 1 IP per save.

I can get will saves, reflex saves, fort saves (spend an IP), damage, attack (spend an IP), initiative, HP, Spot, Listen, and all dex and strength based skills and checks working off of Int.

Keen Intellect, Insightful Reflexes, Swashbuckler 3, Factotum 3, Faerie Mysteries Initiate. You have to spend an IP to get Int to attack (and you can spend another for Int to damage again).

[Frosty]

Well, Reflex is the least important save though, so all of this probably won't matter too much...

[Emperor Tippy]

Well, Reflex is the least important save though, so all of this probably won't matter too much...

Yeah. Although Int to reflex saves 3 times is nice (warblade, exemplar, Insightful reflexes).

[Meat Shield]

I am AFB right now, but does warblade get access to the setting sun school? I don't think it does.

If not, would a swordsage be more effective here than a warblade with all of the setting sun school goodness with the trips and throws? I think I would take that over the ability bonus from warblade.

[Telonius]

"Giant Size" spell, Wu Jen 7. You can get up to Colossal depending on the caster level. Of course by that point you might be better just trying to eat whatever you're trying to trip.

[KKL]

I am AFB right now, but does warblade get access to the setting sun school? I don't think it does.

Only Swordsage does.

[KevLar]

I'd like to note that the Warblade's Battle Skill doesn't work when you trip.

You anticipate your enemies’ ploys and tactics. At 11th level, you gain an insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on any check made to oppose an enemy’s bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, or trip attempt.

See? It's for defense only.

[Eldariel]

Yeah. I just wish there was a way to get Int to Fort saves, that doesn't require paying 1 IP per save.

I can get will saves, reflex saves, fort saves (spend an IP), damage, attack (spend an IP), initiative, HP, Spot, Listen, and all dex and strength based skills and checks working off of Int.

Keen Intellect, Insightful Reflexes, Swashbuckler 3, Factotum 3, Faerie Mysteries Initiate. You have to spend an IP to get Int to attack (and you can spend another for Int to damage again).

You can get Int to attack and damage through manifesting Control Body on yourself (or generally, having your Schismed mind do it).

[Fax Celestis]

I'd like to note that the Warblade's Battle Skill doesn't work when you trip.

See? It's for defense only.

Any trip attempt is an opposed check.

[kjones]

Any trip attempt is an opposed check.

Yes, but in that case, they're opposing your check - you're not opposing theirs. I think that both RAW and RAI support the interpretation that this ability is only used on defending against other's bull rush/trip/disarm/etc.

[Duke of URL]

Any trip attempt is an opposed check.

But it's specifically worded to apply only to "an enemy’s... attempt." Attempt being the key word here; that's different from just an opposed check in that the enemy must initiate the opposed check.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Any roll vs roll is considered opposed, regardless of who's initiating it. The only way a check isn't opposed is if it's a roll vs DC. If you Hide and someone tries to Spot you, it's an opposed check; if someone's Hiding and you try to Spot them, it's an opposed check. Any Grapple check is an opposed grapple check regardless of who the defender is. If your DC is someone else's roll, it is considered opposed.

[Fax Celestis]

But it's specifically worded to apply only to "an enemy’s... attempt." Attempt being the key word here; that's different from just an opposed check in that the enemy must initiate the opposed check.

You win this round, Holmes... *shakes fist*

[monty]

Master Thrower can get Trip Shot, which lets you use Dex instead of Strength and get an additional +4 bonus, as well as being able to use it at range.

[Aahz]

Any roll vs roll is considered opposed, regardless of who's initiating it. The only way a check isn't opposed is if it's a roll vs DC. If you Hide and someone tries to Spot you, it's an opposed check; if someone's Hiding and you try to Spot them, it's an opposed check. Any Grapple check is an opposed grapple check regardless of who the defender is. If your DC is someone else's roll, it is considered opposed.

"any check made to oppose an enemy’s ... trip attempt."

Yes, it's an opposed roll. But the important point is that the trip attempt is yours, not the enemy's. If a feat said "any check made to oppose an enemy's grapple check" then yes, it would apply regardless of who grappled, since (as you point out) grapple is 'symmetric'.

Trip, however, is not symmetrical; one person makes the trip attempt, the other one opposes it. Opposing a trip is not a trip attempt, and a trip attempt is not an opposition of a trip.

[Curmudgeon]

You can as long as they're not from the same source. This is what lets the Monk and Swordsage AC stack(not really, but close enough).

You're behind on your FAQ reading:

Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk, swordsage, and ninja stack?
No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the same name more then once.

It seems the Sage has decided that "AC Bonus" is an actual named ability rather than a generic description. Plus the Swordsage AC Bonus explicitly requires wearing light armor, whereas the Monk requires wearing no armor; you can't have both these conditions at the same time.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You're behind on your FAQ reading: It seems the Sage has decided that "AC Bonus" is an actual named ability rather than a generic description. Plus the Swordsage AC Bonus explicitly requires wearing light armor, whereas the Monk requires wearing no armor; you can't have both these conditions at the same time.

1: FAQ is not RAW.
2: the armor issue is why I said (not really).
3: Do you really think one ability to add to your AC when unarmored, with a delayed bonus of +4, is the same as an ability to add to your AC when armored?

[Meat Shield]

Well if that warblade bonus no longer applies then I definitely say take swordsage instead for the setting sun school, especially since most of those maneuvers get a +4 untyped bonus to the roll, AND you can pick your Str or Dex modifier to use on the check as well. (Triple bonus - by selecting which bonus you use, you also force your opponent to use the same one, so pick their worst.)