High levels...Will Save important?

[Frosty]

If I'm making a high level Crusader with crappy Charisma, should I concentrate on raising his Will saves in the conventional manner? Or should I let maneuvers handle my saves or even just buy a ring that grants immunity to mind affecting effects and scrying?

I'm trying to go for a build with maximum survivability, even in a Solo environment.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Take a dip in Warblade for the 2 save maneuvers. Max conc, and you don't need to worry about saves.

[Frosty]

Take a dip in Warblade for the 2 save maneuvers. Max conc, and you don't need to worry about saves.

Aren't there THREE save maneuvers? But yes, that's what I plan to do, but is it enough? Eventually I'll be targeted by two Will saves in one turn.

[Thurbane]

If you're generating the character with a high starting level (and cash), just buy some magical protection. If you have to work up to that level, you're gonna get ganked many times over by a low Will save...my 2 coppers, anyway...

[Townopolis]

Will saves are, generally speaking, the most important defense.

Steadfast determination (requires endurance) is a feat from PHB2 that allows you to use Con for will instead of Wis, if that helps.

Taking the IH Surge & Focus both is also a good idea, as is taking the 2 DM save maneuvers (there are 4 DM maneuvers, but 3 of them are the specific ones, IIRC there's a higher-level one that grants a bonus to a single save).

However, probably the best defense is a permanently active item of disobedience (Cscoundrel). I believe the magic-item-generator prices it at 30k.

Back on feats, Indomitable Will (PHB2, requires endurance and iron will) allows you to roll twice, take the higher, on will saves.

I'd go disobedience+maneuvers, though, unless you have nothing better to do with your feats, or if you're gaining a feat per level or something.

[Frosty]

and what does that Disobedience spell do?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

and what does that Disobedience spell do?

It's an hour-pe level buff that replicates the mental protection part of protection from evil. It can also cause a caster that tries to mentally control the subject to falsely believe the spell was successful. This part is particularly tricky, since the subject can still recieve mental commands, but is under no obligation to follow through on them, allowing the subject to "play along" if he or she so desires.

[Hal]

Back on feats, Indomitable Will (PHB2, requires endurance and iron will) allows you to roll twice, take the higher, on will saves.

Alternatively, he could take any luck feat and then Survivor's Luck, which lets you reroll a saving throw (CS).

[Stupendous_Man]

Protection from Alignment helps at lower levels

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Will saves are the most important any any levels.

Reflex saves are negligible, especially with the proliferation of 'Rings of Evasion' and hit points.

Fort Saves are 2nd most important, to avoid getting taken down by disintegration and other spells like that.

Will saves have by far the most "love" for lack of a better term, because most of the better spells are "Willsave or die" types.

[Arbitrarity]

Alternatively, he could take any luck feat and then Survivor's Luck, which lets you reroll a saving throw (CS).

Only 2/day though.

So boosting will saves is Endurance, Iron Will, Steadfast Determination, Indomitable will. Hm.

[Frosty]

Only 2/day though.

So boosting will saves is Endurance, Iron Will, Steadfast Determination, Indomitable will. Hm.

4 feats? Eww...as a Warforged, what would I need Endurance for anyways? Id get a +2, I'd use my Con instead of Wis, which would probably net me an extra +7, and then Indomitable Will gives me a take the better of two rolls.

Is it really worth 4 feats? At level 20 I'd have what...a +15 Will save total with this and I get to roll twice. If I dip cleric and RKV I'd manage to get +18 instead. But still...

[Ponce]

Spend 2000gp on an item (phylactery slot) that grants protection from evil as a continuous effect.

Take warblade levels.

You made like 4 threads about what I can only assume is the same character. You could have just made one to keep the information more condensed.

[Hal]

4 feats? Eww...as a Warforged, what would I need Endurance for anyways? Id get a +2, I'd use my Con instead of Wis, which would probably net me an extra +7, and then Indomitable Will gives me a take the better of two rolls.

Is it really worth 4 feats? At level 20 I'd have what...a +15 Will save total with this and I get to roll twice. If I dip cleric and RKV I'd manage to get +18 instead. But still...

Problem solved, then. If you're dipping cleric, take the luck domain and get yourself a daily reroll.

[Saph]

I think you guys are exaggerating quite a bit. Yes, Will saves are important, but most characters still die due to loss of HP, not due to a failed Will roll. A vast amount of monster attacks target Reflex (breath weapons and fireball-type AoEs being the major ones).

At high levels Will becomes very important due to the amount of effects that take you out of the battle on a failed Will save, but at low levels a failed Will roll usually just means being Shaken or otherwise inconvenienced . . . which is annoying, but not as bad as losing most of your HP or being dropped to negatives.

- Saph

[Townopolis]

I wouldn't spend 4 feats on just one save. I'd recommend those feats more for a warblade, who can get endurance and iron will both as bonus feats.

For you, I'd recommend either permanently active Prot. Evil, or permanently active Disobedience.

Disobedience is more expensive, but isn't restricted by the alignment of your opponent. You may occasionally fight a lawful-neutral or somesuch enemy, and then Prot. Evil really does no good.

[olentu]

I wouldn't spend 4 feats on just one save. I'd recommend those feats more for a warblade, who can get endurance and iron will both as bonus feats.

For you, I'd recommend either permanently active Prot. Evil, or permanently active Disobedience.

Disobedience is more expensive, but isn't restricted by the alignment of your opponent. You may occasionally fight a lawful-neutral or somesuch enemy, and then Prot. Evil really does no good.

The mental protection part works regardless of alignment.

[Jack_Simth]

Problem solved, then. If you're dipping cleric, take the luck domain and get yourself a daily reroll.

Pride Domain. Reroll all 1's on saving throws.

[Townopolis]

The mental protection part works regardless of alignment.

You are indeed right, just take Prot. Evil then, it's worth it for that effect alone.

[Curmudgeon]

Pride Domain. Reroll all 1's on saving throws.

.. but only once per save.

[Eldariel]

.. but only once per save.

There's a 0.25% chance of two consecutive "1"s. That comes into play effectively never.

[only1doug]

There's a 0.25% chance of two consecutive "1"s. That comes into play effectively never.

Except the session when we were fighting a BBEG and i decided to use my touch attack and i uttered the fatal words "2+ to hit"

3 rounds of rolling 1's followed that phrase, i kid you not.

what are the odds of rolling 1 three times in a row?
1/20=5%
1/400=0.25%
1/8000=0.013%

it can happen (it did).