[3.5] Survivor-Sader?

[Frosty]

If you knew that you were going to adventure solo (at least part of the time) in the Nine Hells and hence be without magic support, how would you build a Crusader to be the ultimate survivalist? Assume no infinite-combo cheese, no candles of invocations, no Leadership, no psionics, no Binders, and for the most part, no casting. A dip in a casting class to get Turn Attempts is finem but this should be a primary melee character first and foremost. LA +0 or +1 with certain overpowered races/templates not allowed (you know what I'm talking about. I'm looking at you, Half-Ogre and Mineral Warrior). Must have at least 2 level 9 Maneuvers by ECL 20.

WBL is Standard. Point-buy is 36. Most any book is fine.

I'd appreciate both build ideas *and* equipment suggestions.

[chiasaur11]

Infinite damage shuriken Crusaders are right out, I take it?

[monty]

Take levels in the Survivor class? You can get into it at level 2 if you start as a commoner.

[Frosty]

Infinite damage shuriken Crusaders are right out, I take it?

yes. No cheese.

Take levels in the Survivor class? You can get into it at level 2 if you start as a commoner.

Please be serioues here I'm looking for genuine advice on how to reach and defeat all the Aspects of the rulers of Hell adventuring Solo as a melee character.

[Emperor Tippy]

yes. No cheese.



Please be serioues here I'm looking for genuine advice on how to reach and defeat all the Aspects of the rulers of Hell adventuring Solo as a melee character.

Those two statements are mutually exclusive. Anything that can solo hell is by definition cheese.

[Frosty]

Those two statements are mutually exclusive. Anything that can solo hell is by definition cheese.

Cindy can solo Hell I bet blindfolded...oh wait

Well, then err on the side of NOT-cheese then. With the goal of surviving and going as far into Hell as possible, what is the best, non-cheesy build to go for? I guess we also need a definition of "non-cheesy" because I plan on using a few nightsticks if I have to in order to get extra turnings to fuel some RKV abilities if I have to.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm. I have an assassin base class that could make a reasonable go at it, but only if you take all 20 levels for the capstone.

Beyond that, not much that I can think of. Unless you're ok with gestalt. And then a factotum//warblade or factotum//crusader might be able to make a go at it

[Frosty]

No, this won't be a gestalt. My default thought so far is Mostly Crusader splashed with 2 levels of RKV. I spend turn attempts and can use SoRV every single turn. Combined with Immortal Fortitude Stance and the Improved Fortitfication feat (if Warforged), this means I'll probably never die from HP damage ever. If I'm a Warforged, I will also be immune to a LOT of problems that might rop up. Poison and disease are common-place in Hell. I don't have to Eat or Drink so food is not an issue at all. I don't need to breathe, so if I can get Immunity to Fire somehow I can even hide under lava and ignore a lot of attacks from devils.

I figured I can probably get a pretty decent AC like around 40, but my weaknesses will include Touch AC, low Will save, and low Reflex save. Third Eye: Mindblank should take care of many dangerous Will saves, but still...

[chiasaur11]

Wait.

One man, without magic, soloing hell?

You want rage. Lots of it. You need to have ahead full of mad.

You need to be a 12.0 on a one to ten scale of badness.

[Emperor Tippy]

No, this won't be a gestalt. My default thought so far is Mostly Crusader splashed with 2 levels of RKV. I spend turn attempts and can use SoRV every single turn. Combined with Immortal Fortitude Stance and the Improved Fortitfication feat (if Warforged), this means I'll probably never die from HP damage ever. If I'm a Warforged, I will also be immune to a LOT of problems that might rop up. Poison and disease are common-place in Hell. I don't have to Eat or Drink so food is not an issue at all. I don't need to breathe, so if I can get Immunity to Fire somehow I can even hide under lava and ignore a lot of attacks from devils.

I figured I can probably get a pretty decent AC like around 40, but my weaknesses will include Touch AC, low Will save, and low Reflex save. Third Eye: Mindblank should take care of many dangerous Will saves, but still...

What's your DM's take on Mindblank interacting with True Seeing and detect magic? If they go RAW then grab a ring of invisibility and a Third Eye: Conceal and then you can walk past most devils without a problem. Grab the dark template and max your hide and move silently for even better stealthiness.

[Frosty]

What's your DM's take on Mindblank interacting with True Seeing and detect magic? If they go RAW then grab a ring of invisibility and a Third Eye: Conceal and then you can walk past most devils without a problem. Grab the dark template and max your hide and move silently for even better stealthiness.

A Dark Warforged just wouldn't make sense. I have to get my character past an actual DM. I dunno his take on Mindblank interacting with True Seeing. I'm guessing it wouldn't defeat True Seeing (although I think Non-detection has a chance).

With Adamantine Body, my ACP is going to be really high anyways.

What kind of weapon would you advise? and would you go for an Animated shield?

[Emperor Tippy]

A Dark Warforged just wouldn't make sense. I have to get my character past an actual DM. I dunno his take on Mindblank interacting with True Seeing. I'm guessing it wouldn't defeat True Seeing (although I think Non-detection has a chance).

With Adamantine Body, my ACP is going to be really high anyways.

True, and a dark warforged would be pretty funny/weird. If you can get Mindblank to block True Seeing/See Invisible/ Detect Magic/ Arcane Sight then you stand a chance by virtue of being able to avoid fights that you can't win and pick all your battles. Otherwise you're screwed.

What kind of weapon would you advise? and would you go for an Animated shield?

The one you can get to do the most damage. And yes on the shield, unless you really need the funds for something else.

[RS14]

You want rage. Lots of it. You need to have ahead full of mad.

You need to be a 12.0 on a one to ten scale of badness.

"Rip and tear your guts! You are huge! That means you have huge guts! Rip and tear!"
Sorry, I had to.

Edit: Apparently you were quoting the same source as I. I feel rather silly now.

[Frosty]

True, and a dark warforged would be pretty funny/weird. If you can get Mindblank to block True Seeing/See Invisible/ Detect Magic/ Arcane Sight then you stand a chance by virtue of being able to avoid fights that you can't win and pick all your battles. Otherwise you're screwed.


The one you can get to do the most damage. And yes on the shield, unless you really need the funds for something else.

Actually, I was thinking of the Life Drinker. It is a battleaxe from the DMG that bestows 2 negative levels whenever it hits something. The user also takes 1 negative level. As a warforged, I don't care about negative levels...this could be huge.

Can you help me deconstruct the costs of the Life Drinker so that I may add enchantments to it?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd go for something that can just walk through unhindered, such as a stealth build or a Vow of Peace build. A good enough stealther could get the feat Darkstalker from Lords of Madness along with Hide in Plain Sight, and have high enough skill checks to never be noticed by anything, ever. You could also find some way to go in Ethereal, though anything with innate True Seeing would notice you and gaze attacks would still affect you.

If you intend to go through battling everything you encounter, keep in mind you'll eventually face entire legions of foes and be overwhelmed. Realistically, you'd get your gear bombarded with Greater Dispel Magic, get grappled and pinned, and then stripped of your gear and magic items. Being invulnerable to death from HP damage and special attacks wouldn't matter unless you had Timeless Body constantly active, which would probably be the only way to succeed without a Persistent ESA AMF.

[MeklorIlavator]

Actually, I was thinking of the Life Drinker. It is a battleaxe from the DMG that bestows 2 negative levels whenever it hits something. The user also takes 1 negative level. As a warforged, I don't care about negative levels...this could be huge.

Wait, What? Warforged are immune to negative levels? Since when?

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually, I was thinking of the Life Drinker. It is a battleaxe from the DMG that bestows 2 negative levels whenever it hits something. The user also takes 1 negative level. As a warforged, I don't care about negative levels...this could be huge.

Yeah. Get it placed on a Speed weapon.

Can you help me deconstruct the costs of the Life Drinker so that I may add enchantments to it?

Well:
DMG cost: 40,320
Masterwork Greataxe: 320
+1: 2,000

So 38,000 GP. None of the +X's match up price wise. Granted, that is cheap.
Dual wield speed life drinker daggers (only 1 need be speed) and get Superior TWF from blood claw master. 3 attacks at full AB and potentially 6 negative levels.

[Frosty]

Wait, What? Warforged are immune to negative levels? Since when?

Since always. Read their racial traits from the Races of Eberron book.

I'd go for something that can just walk through unhindered, such as a stealth build or a Vow of Peace build. A good enough stealther could get the feat Darkstalker from Lords of Madness along with Hide in Plain Sight, and have high enough skill checks to never be noticed by anything, ever. You could also find some way to go in Ethereal, though anything with innate True Seeing would notice you and gaze attacks would still affect you.

If you intend to go through battling everything you encounter, keep in mind you'll eventually face entire legions of foes and be overwhelmed. Realistically, you'd get your gear bombarded with Greater Dispel Magic, get grappled and pinned, and then stripped of your gear and magic items. Being invulnerable to death from HP damage and special attacks wouldn't matter unless you had Timeless Body constantly active, which would probably be the only way to succeed without a Persistent ESA AMF.

Well, I may also have a ring of Freedom of Movement, but they might dispel that as well. I won't battle everything, but I expect to have to face a lot of battles. And I *could* go the sneaky route, but I don't want to because that's not the character I want to play right now. Besides, I can't sneak past the things I need to kill.

[Xefas]

Can you help me deconstruct the costs of the Life Drinker so that I may add enchantments to it?

Well, it's a +1 Greataxe without the Life-Drinking Quality.

That's 20gp (Axe) + 300gp (Masterwork) + 2000gp (+1) subtracted from the total price of the Life-Drinker, which is 40,320gp.

The Life-Drinking special ability is thus worth 38,000gp. That doesn't line up perfectly with any enhancement bonus, and while armor has static +x price additions, weapons do not, so it's a DM call.

[Frosty]

Yeah. Get it placed on a Speed weapon.


Well:
DMG cost: 40,320
Masterwork Greataxe: 320
+1: 2,000

So 38,000 GP. None of the +X's match up price wise. Granted, that is cheap.
Dual wield speed life drinker daggers (only 1 need be speed) and get Superior TWF from blood claw master. 3 attacks at full AB and potentially 6 negative levels.

Eh, I think relying on it exclusively will be banned as "cheesy" however. I'll ask the DM, but I think this breaks the spirit of the game. It's something nice to have. By the way, will Evil Outsider-Bane and Lawful Outsider-Bane stack? I could in theory have a +9 enchancement weapon agains Devils?

[RTGoodman]

For a deconstructed life-drinker, here's what I get:

The total cost is 40,320 gp; of that, 320 gp is from the cost of the masterwork greataxe. That leaves the remaining 40,000 gp for the +1 enhancement bonus and the life-drinking "property." Now, there's no set enhancement bonus that could equal 40,000 gp. The closest are 32,000 for a +4 weapon (or a +1 greataxe with a "life-drinker property" worth +3) or 50,000 gp for a +5 weapon (+1 greataxe plus a +4 "life-drinker property").

I'd probably go with one of two options. First, that the life-drinker property costs a flat 38,000 gp (which is the 40,000 gp minus the 2,000 gp for a +1 enhancement bonus). That seems easiest, but makes "upgrading" the weapon cheaper (since a +2 life-drinker would only be 6,000 more, rather than 18,000 to 22,000 gp more if it were considered an (effective) +4 or +5 weapon out-of-the-box.

The second method would be just to consider the "life-drinking" property to just be like a standard +3- or +4-equivalent property (to be decided by you and your DM, to see which you think is fair). I'd probably consider it worthy of a +4 since it works ALL the time as opposed, but that's just my opinion. That would change the price to 50,320 gp, but again, you can talk to your DM about that. (I personally think the weapon is underpriced considering how many ways there are to mitigate the factors, but whatever.)


EDIT: Man, that's was a LOT of ninja'ing

[Frosty]

Well in a normal campaign, NOBODY would ever use it because of how fast it'd killyour character. but introduce Warforged, and suddenly it is the king of weapons.

[streakster]

Get a Titan bloodline.

Now, how does this help your character, you ask? Well, it's complicated. You see, this bloodline will allow you character to wield a Gargantuan warhammer.

Think about that.

Now, obviously such a character is much too awesome for the DM to let it die! So he'll fudge the rolls in your favor!

You're welcome.

EDIT: For added benefit, be a Gnome. Or a Pixie.

[Frosty]

Get a Titan bloodline.

Now, how does this help your character, you ask? Well, it's complicated. You see, this bloodline will allow you character to wield a Gargantuan warhammer.

Think about that.

Now, obviously such a character is much too awesome for the DM to let it die! So he'll fudge the rolls in your favor!

You're welcome.

EDIT: For added benefit, be a Gnome. Or a Pixie.

Bwaaa...huh...wha...HOW would a Pixie's ancestry somehow get TITAN blood mixed in? It just doesn't fit!

[streakster]

From the thread I stole it from:

Titan + Troll > Half-Titan Troll + Human > Half-Troll Human + Nixie > Half-Fae Human + Pixie > Half-Fae Pixie (?!) + Pixie = Pixie with the Titan bloodline. Simple!

[Adumbration]

If you hadn't specified that you want 2 9th level maneuvers at level 20, I would have suggested you the Hellreaver, the class that was made to break into hell and have a party at it. It's from Fiendish Codex II, gives you a sort of holy rage, healing as a swift action, mettle, the ability to prevent teleportation AND the ability to make your enemies explode 1/day - Fort save or die, with 10d6 on a succeeded save. And on a failed save, it dies and every enemy within 60 feet is blinded, no save.

[RTGoodman]

Just a thought I had, but what about Leadership? Or does it go against the "solo" aspect of the idea? I mean, you don't necessarily have to cheese it out - you could just use it to grab a support character to help you out, and it would also give you someone else to use with your White Raven maneuvers with. (Or, I guess, you could have ALL your hundreds of minions from a high Leadership score following you about, but that's REALLY not "soloing" Hell. )

Also, someone mentioned stacking various banes on a weapon, and I don't know of anything that would prevent it (except monetary and weapon limitations). A +1 evil-outsider-bane lawful-outsider bane glaive (or whatever) would have, if I'm right, an effective +5 enhancement bonus against devils AND deal an extra 4d6 damage against them (for the price of only a +3 weapon). There's also another Bane ability in some book (Complete Arcane, I think) that's basically anything-that-casts-spells-or-has-SLAs-bane. It might be called magebane, but I'm not sure - you could look into that, considering most or all devils have SLAs. You're also probably going to want it to be holy or whatever (to bypass DR/good), and maybe shocking (burst?) since that's the only element devils aren't usually immune/resistant to (besides sonic).

[Triaxx]

Why go to all that trouble? Just dual-wield Lightsabers. Brilliant energy greatswords that can be wielded one handed and always do maximum damage.

[Emperor Tippy]

Why go to all that trouble? Just dual-wield Lightsabers. Brilliant energy greatswords that can be wielded one handed and always do maximum damage.

Nah, if you want real lightsabers you make them with disintegration blades

Disintegration Blade
Exotic Light Weapon
Deals 40d6 damage per attack unless the enemy makes a DC 19 Fort save, in which case it deals 5d6, if it kills the enemy they are disintegrated.
Attacks Touch AC.
Uses Dex for all attack rolls.
Must overcome SR to damage the target (get's +20 on the check).

That was an artifact in one of my games, you couldn't get bonus damage with it or sneak attack with it but when you average 140 damage per attack and have what amounts to a continuous wraith strike effect you don't really need bonus damage.

[Fizban]

Well, aside from "You're screwed," I always recommend Draconic Aura [Vigor] for endurance builds. Fast healing 1 up to half your max means you'll start every fight with at least half hp. As a Crusader you can heal a lot during combat, and you can soak a lot for 1 round with your damage pool, but you still need enough to survive the first round and start your healing strikes.

Other stuff that might help: hideous SR, hideous DR, and the rest of the good aligned planes at your back.

And just cause I need to comment on the lightsabers too: I'm sure we've all thought about continuous Flame Blade. Stick a Consecrate and/or Purify spell metamagic on there to get half damage against fire immunity and/or 50% more (IIRC) damage against evil. Remember, it's wielded as a scimitar, so you very much can use both hands, and Power Attack requires a 13 Str to use, not a strength bonus to damage.