Are Nonspellcasting Rangers and Paladins better then the ones with magic? (3.5)

[Tempest Fennac]

Is the spellcasting which normal Rangers and Paladins get better then the class features which the Non-spellcasting versions get as compensation? I know the abilities (for the most part) aren't particularly impressive, but I tend to think the spells those classes get are too weak to really be useful, so I'm curious about what other people think about the Magicless versions. (If you're not familiar with the variants, see http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD...asses-Base.pdf .)

[Spiryt]

This variant grants you exaclty what spells do (Longstrider, Bear Endurance/Cat's Grace, Freedom of movement in case of Ranger), but less times per day, you can't choose other spells if you want, and loose generall versality. They're weak as hell to me.

And I'm not sure why poeple scorn their spells so much. In fact, they're kinda good bonus for any Full BaB class, improving their stats, simply.

And stuff like Spell Compendium gives them even more stuff.

One just shouldn't expect those spells to have any offensive or "combat control" merit. They're just buffs and utility stuff.

[Tempest Fennac]

I didn't expect them to be that powerful. I was just wondering if they were really worth it due to how items could probably emulate a lot of those spells if you had enough money (admittedly, there is a good chance that you'd need to buy other things instead).

[Spiryt]

Well, I'm just saying that the only thing that can be worth it is +10 to movement, as it's always active in case of Ranger. Other things from this variant are just ranger/paladin spells one level later and generally limited.

In case of paladin I don't think anything is worth, as his core spells are more useful than ranger's IMO.

But speaking of variants, there's a LOT of potentially interesting paladin variant's here.

And this moon warded ranger looks worth it....

[hotel_papa]

Personally, I really like the ranger variant in Complete Champion, the one that gives you bonus feats instead of spellcasting. Works really well for those not interested in going full-on ranger 20.
In my case, my Ranger 6/Beastmaster 1/Beast Heart Adept 10 build enjoys his bonus feat much more than a few 1st level ranger spells. Anything to keep well poisoned arrows flying at the baddies who come at his pets.

HP

[Tempest Fennac]

MW Ranger would be good at night. I liked the look of the Half-Orc Paladin as well. Which spells would you recommend for Rangers and Paladins? (I'd probably not bother with anything with a save due to how low the DC would normally be compared with full caster's DCs.)

[Spiryt]

Well, longstrider and resist energy are fine, one for better speed and second in case of ecountering some energy hazard.

Barskin is nice +2 or higher to AC, Cat's grace is great for archer, and Owl's Wisdom for Will saves and other stuff, Wind Wall good against archer's.

Water Walk, Neutralise Poison are always nice. So is Darkvision, if you're just poor weak eyed 'Ummie.

Nondetection and Freedom of movement are probably best from 4th level, but Commune with Nature, also is useful.

Paladin:

Divine Favor!, Bull's Strenght and other's, Shield Other, Death Ward...

If you're thinking about spell variants I suggest Paladin and Ranger modification in Pathfinder Beta. It's simple change, just gives them new spell slots earlier, but it makes their spells more useful, without being overpowering in any sense.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks (I'll check my Pathfinder guide later). How good would you say the Moonwarded Ranger is compared with the other combat styles?

[Spiryt]

Thanks (I'll check my Pathfinder guide later). How good would you say the Moonwarded Ranger is compared with the other combat styles?

Dunno, I see it first time. But complete immunity to mind affecting attacks is just times better than Improved Precise Shot or something, I think.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point (unless I wanted the other 2 stages desparately, I'd probably just take the 11th level substitution to get that ability). I was just thinking about making a CN TWF Lupin Ranger who hated magic, but I think taking that 11th level ability in place of the 3rd TWF skill would get work better then just using the Nonmagic Ranger (I'd ideally be able to take Armour of the Senses as a level 6 ability due to only really wanting the first TWF feat).

[Starbuck_II]

MW Ranger would be good at night. I liked the look of the Half-Orc Paladin as well. Which spells would you recommend for Rangers and Paladins? (I'd probably not bother with anything with a save due to how low the DC would normally be compared with full caster's DCs.)

Are we tasling core?

Because Non-core we have Find the Gap which is a fantastic Ranger spell ignoring Natural armor: kinda like a more balanced versiuon of Wraithstrike.

[Tempest Fennac]

I didn't think Find the Gap had a save (I'm not familiar with the spell, apart from the fact that, it I remember correctly, it ignores armour and NA with melee attacks). I'll check that spell in a minute.


EDIT: According to http://www.devinweb.com/assassinspells.htm , it ignores non-natural armour as well.

[Quietus]

Paladin spellcasting gets a big bost from that one feat (I'm running on zero sleep in two days, with three work shifts in between, so I can't remember which book or any specifics) that lets you cast Paladin spells as a swift action. Paladins rarely have anything to do with their Swifts, so throwing in the ability to pop a buff as you charge into combat is really, really handy.

[Hal]

Paladin spellcasting gets a big bost from that one feat (I'm running on zero sleep in two days, with three work shifts in between, so I can't remember which book or any specifics) that lets you cast Paladin spells as a swift action. Paladins rarely have anything to do with their Swifts, so throwing in the ability to pop a buff as you charge into combat is really, really handy.

Battle Blessing.

If you're making a charge-adin, this is crucial, as it lets you cast your charge buffing spell(s), then make your charge, allowing for the mega-damage people go to this build for.

It's still helpful otherwise, particularly if you can get expanded source books to your options (Spell Compendium, I'm looking at you). Technically, RAW, you can only cast Paladin spells with Battle Blessing, but I think most DMs will give you the benefit of the doubt on this one and let you cast other spells if you find a way to add them to your Paladin casting (Sword of the Arcane Order, for example).

As to the OPs question, it's generally not a good idea to give up spellcasting, especially with how limited it is for these classes already. I know Paladins have the option to replace it with bonus feats (Complete Champion), but the number of feats you get in exchange doesn't add up to much. It basically makes you a fighter with turn undead (etc.).

[Salvonus]

In addition to what everyone else mentioned, the variants can also be useful (especially the feat one) if you plan on prestige-classing or multiclassing out of Ranger/Paladin at a fairly early point. Well, if the PrC you're using doesn't advance casting, that is. The further you get into the class, the more you begin to lose out, in my opinion.

[Saph]

Remember that having Ranger or Paladin spellcasting means you can use a wand of cure light wounds. This is a huge deal in my experience. Being able to self-heal up to full whenever you have a few rounds spare is not something you want to give up.

- Saph

[Captain Six]

They are definitely not worth it in the long shot. Epic level spellcasting man.

[Suzuro]

While I agree that they are weaker in general, remember that they are usually spell-like abilities which means that you can still use them if your hands are full (I'm looking at you, dual-wielding ranger).

-Suzuro

[Recaiden]

I find that the spells that they get are just as good as most class features, although either will be better for some builds.

[AmberVael]

They are definitely not worth it in the long shot. Epic level spellcasting man.

Paladins and Rangers do not get level 9 spells, and thus, without another source of casting, cannot take the Epic Spellcasting feat.
Plus you need 24 spellcraft ranks, and that would be really annoying to try and get.

[hamishspence]

I'm told that they can take the bonus spell slot feats (normally for metamagic) keep taking them all the way to 9th level (5 epic feats) then take epic spellcasting.

Though it was Sage Advice that said that, for bards.

[AmberVael]

...well I guess you could do it that way.
But that would be an annoyingly high investment, and would take you quite a while to actually achieve.
Plus it does seem to be a perversion of the feat's intention, if not its wording.

So yes, I guess you could, with the expenditure of no less than 6 feats, and getting Spellcraft to 24 (which would require you to be level 42 if you went for pure Paladin or Ranger), gain Epic Spellcasting.
But by that point I'd wonder why you didn't just play a cleric or druid.

[hamishspence]

1 level in another class (or the right feats) might fix it.

The idea of a Paladin using high end epic divine powers is kinda fun. Sure, not optimised, but makes an interesting change of pace.

[AmberVael]

^: Even then, due to the feats they'd have to choose, they'd need to wait at least until level 30.

[hamishspence]

question is- would a 30th level paladin with epic magic, despite not playing to strengths, be much more dangerous than a 30th level one focusing on the things paladins do best? Is epic spellcasting a "get at any cost" thing?

[Emperor Tippy]

^: Even then, due to the feats they'd have to choose, they'd need to wait at least until level 30.

Technically no, it's doable at level 21.

Take the feat Flexible Mind (Dragon #326) to make Spellcraft a class skill for you. Then at level 21 make use of Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos to change 5 of your feats into Improved Spell Capacity and a 6th into Epic Spellcasting.

Work's for rangers as well.

question is- would a 30th level paladin with epic magic, despite not playing to strengths, be much more dangerous than a 30th level one focusing on the things paladins do best? Is epic spellcasting a "get at any cost" thing?

Yes. If you want to stand a chance in epic you need epic spellcasting (or manifesting).

[hamishspence]

isn't there a rule somewhere that epic feats must occupy epic feat slots? if not, maybe there should be- those two spells are good enough already.

[AmberVael]

Technically no, it's doable at level 21.

Take the feat Flexible Mind (Dragon #326) to make Spellcraft a class skill for you. Then at level 21 make use of Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos to change 5 of your feats into Improved Spell Capacity and a 6th into Epic Spellcasting.

Work's for rangers as well.

Okay, barring ridiculous cheese which no good DM would allow, 30 is approximately the level you could qualify. There are probably ways to lower that, but my point stands- you have to put a fair amount of effort into making this happen.

[Emperor Tippy]

Okay, barring ridiculous cheese which no good DM would allow, 30 is approximately the level you could qualify. There are probably ways to lower that, but my point stands- you have to put a fair amount of effort into making this happen.

What ridiculous cheese? This is all predicated on epic spellcasting existing in the game in the first place. Short of playing as Pun-Pun or the like you really can't come up with anything cheesier.

[AmberVael]

Under a DM who actually attempts to regulate things, epic spellcasting isn't actually so bad.
It's still amazing, but hell, you're already a spellcaster who can cast level 9 spells.
On the other hand, using Chaos Shuffle to suddenly make all of your feats Epic feats is pretty blatantly cheesy.