Exploring Pelor (4e)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

One thing that's irked me considerably about the deities of 4e is that the information about them in the Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Master's Guide seems to have been intentionally left vague. For someone playing a paladin or a cleric, this can be frustrating, as your religion is the most important part of your roleplaying.

The deity that I find the most confusing is the one I'm playing a paladin of at the moment, Pelor. While I'm relieved that there don't seem to be any more "OMG PELOR'Z REELY EVUL!" jokes floating around, the new Pelor seems to be made up of several disparate elements.

He's the Good god of:

• the sun
• summer
• time
• agriculture
• the harvest

He also supports those in need and fights against any and all evil. He's worshiped by humans more than any other deity and his tenets are as following:

• Alleviate suffering wherever you find it.
• Bring Pelor's light into places of farkness, showing kindness, mercy and compassion.
• Be watchful against evil.

To be honest, I find it difficult to reconcile all these different aspects in roleplaying a single character.

What do you think? Is there a way to reconcile all these elements? What the hell was up with people claiming that Pelor was actually evil anyway? How would one roleplay a Pelorian character in a place where Pelor wasn't the dominant human religion (I'm playing a Pelorian paladin in a place where The Raven Queen is dominant)?

Thank you for your kind attention.

[hamishspence]

jozan the cleric of Pelor is depicted as casting a least one Evil spell in PHB- symbol of pain.

In Dragon, the evil ex-cleric of Pelor, in a short story (not sure if it was extract from the 3.0 greyhawk era books) voiced the old philosophical suffering problem: "If Pelor is all-powerful, he is not good, and if he is Good, he is not all powerful"

[Starbuck_II]

One thing that's irked me considerably about the deities of 4e is that the information about them in the Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Master's Guide seems to have been intentionally left vague. For someone playing a paladin or a cleric, this can be frustrating, as your religion is the most important part of your roleplaying.


He's the Good god of:

• the sun
• summer
• time
• agriculture
• the harvest

He also supports those in need and fights against any and all evil. He's worshiped by humans more than any other deity and his tenets are as following:

• Alleviate suffering wherever you find it.
• Bring Pelor's light into places of farkness, showing kindness, mercy and compassion.
• Be watchful against evil.

To be honest, I find it difficult to reconcile all these different aspects in roleplaying a single character.

Easy. Focus yourself.

Examples:
You are one with nature and its bountiful harvest. Man kind's Nature is to help those who need help and relieve their pain.
You don't actively kill evil, but you are ready to defend yourself if the need arises.

Really, it is easy. Take what part you will and go with it.

What do you think? Is there a way to reconcile all these elements?

How would one roleplay a Pelorian character in a place where Pelor wasn't the dominant human religion (I'm playing a Pelorian paladin in a place where The Raven Queen is dominant)?

Thank you for your kind attention.

Yes, there is a way. FR did back with Amunator: God of the Sun back in 3rd edition.

The deity that I find the most confusing is the one I'm playing a paladin of at the moment, Pelor. While I'm relieved that there don't seem to be any more "OMG PELOR'Z REELY EVUL!" jokes floating around, the new Pelor seems to be made up of several disparate elements.


What the hell was up with people claiming that Pelor was actually evil anyway?

Run now before Pelorites get you for telling the secret of Pelor's alignment...
There are loads of well supported premises and evideence of Pelors evil in previous editions.

We assume in 4th he is finally good, but we can't be sure.
I'll give you a hint:
Jozan casts evil spells (in the PHB no less) which requires Pelor to be neutral or evil not Good.

In Complete Scoundrel, the Cleric of Pelor says, " Take him, my slaves! Drag his soul back to your dark masters (Pelor I ask?)!"

[Mewtarthio]

In Dragon, the evil ex-cleric of Pelor, in a short story (not sure if it was extract from the 3.0 greyhawk era books) voiced the old philosophical suffering problem: "If Pelor is all-powerful, he is not good, and if he is Good, he is not all powerful"

That is irrelevant, because Pelor is not all-powerful. The setting's polytheistic.

Jozan casts evil spells (in the PHB no less) which requires Pelor to be neutral or evil not Good.

...I'm not entirely sure, but can't clerics cast spells opposing their own alignments? An evil cleric would be unable to follow Pelor, but I'm pretty sure a cleric of Pelor can cast [Evil] spells.

In Complete Scoundrel, the Cleric of Pelor says, " Take him, my slaves! Drag his soul back to your dark masters (Pelor I ask?)!"

Complete Scoundrel? Was that the one with the Grey Guard?

[bosssmiley]

While I'm relieved that there don't seem to be any more "OMG PELOR'Z REELY EVUL!" jokes floating around, the new Pelor seems to be made up of several disparate elements.

The 'Pelor is evil' meme goes back at least a decade, to the days of 2E and Planescape. And it's a poor role-player who can't see potential in the idea of a heretical cult that consider the Burning Eye the fount of all evil in the world.

As for trying to get your head around Pelor as written in the the 4E PHB. He's a classic solar divinity archetype, pretty much Apollo + Horus-Re/Amun-Re/Aten.

[Starbuck_II]

Here is some Pelor Information on his nature of evil essasy:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=846926

[Random NPC]

In Complete Scoundrel, the Cleric of Pelor says, " Take him, my slaves! Drag his soul back to your dark masters (Pelor I ask?)!"

That's the quote for the Malconvoker, which is a good summoner who tricks evil creature into helping him. The cleric is telling his slaves to take the enemy to THEIR dark master, not the cleric's.

[Aquillion]

I really think we need to start compiling lists of reasons why Pelor is evil in 4e. This is something that WotC absolutely cannot change simply with an edition shift; Pelor's evil is metaphysical in nature and transcends all settings.

That's the quote for the Malconvoker, which is a good summoner who tricks evil creature into helping him. The cleric is telling his slaves to take the enemy to THEIR dark master, not the cleric's.

And... that makes it all right?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Perhaps an explanation of the setting I'm in will help?

[Flickerdart]

Just because his tenets are to "be watchful against evil" doesn't make him Good. Indeed, parading as a Good god, Pelor can strike at other Evils with impunity.

[hamishspence]

Cleric section "can't cast spells of alignment opposed to deity"

Though, it could be a "dark Jozan" like the vampire one in Heroes of horror, doing the symbol casting.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Here's some information about the setting:

THE VALE OF THORNS________________________
Within an enormous forest (the World Forest) is a wide open space, filled with cruel thorns. Dotted amongst the thorns are walled settlements or clearings with other terrain features (lakes, hills, fey groves, entrances to the Labyrinth, etc).

The Vale of Thorns is a place where the Feywild had collided with the Shadowfell.

Most people aren't prepared to venture into the Thorns. They have a seductive, corrupting beauty, and tales abound of those who have wandered into their embrace and been torn apart. Travel through the Vale can only be achieved via certain ancient paths, known as rose-ways. Some of the larger rose-ways are common knowledge, but most remain a secret to the majority of the mortals of the Vale, and some are known by only the oldest and greatest of the Vale's denizens.

THE THORNS___________________________________________
The Thorns take up most of the space in the Vale. In most places they stand some thirty feet high, thick, dense hedges of razor sharp needles. Each and every one is a paragon, a perfect example of what a thorn hedge should be. Despite their wicked barbs, the Thorns are beautiful, and can captivate and ensnare an unprepared traveller. The emotion they inspire within others is their greatest danger; even if a victim is not torn to pieces by the Thorns he may lose his mind and become their slave, or be drawn into their midst and become unable to find his way home.

Travel through the Thorns falls into three categories: travel by rose-way, travel by path, and travelling blind.

1. Travel by rose-way: Travel by rose-way refers to journeys that take a person along one of the Vale’s many safe walks, the rose-ways. Strewn with blood red rose petals, these trails offer safe passage through the Thorns. Travellers are normally immune to the lures of the Thorns while on a rose-way, though during the summer and winter Equinoxes the Thorns power extends even here.

While the rose-ways protect their travellers from the Thorns, they are far from safe. A myriad of evil creatures, from callous goblins to twisted dryads, prowl amongst the Thorns waiting for an opportune moment to prey upon mortals. Whenever someone leaves the safety of their settlement and traverses the Vale, they take their life in their hands.

2. Travel by path: Travel by path refers to journeys along a cleared section of the Thorns, but not along a rose-way. Here the Thorns can freely influence travellers, albeit not to the extent that they can when mortals travel blind. At this point the Thorns can only exert their power on travellers to walk off the path and amongst them proper, or to direct the monsters of the Vale to their location.

3. Travelling blind: Travelling blind refers to journeys through the Thorn that do not follow a path. A mortal might leave a path for any number of reasons; running from foes, chasing a quarry, or taking a shortcut. My far the most common reason however, is the lure of the Thorns themselves, who call to mortals when they travel by path. Once in the Thorns a creature is often killed within minutes, the deadly barbs biting hard into their flesh. In other cases the death is psychological, the creature becoming a puppet of the Thorns or simply stripped of mind and put into a vegetative state and left to rot. Memories are a favourite target of the Thorns; a mortal may suddenly find himself many miles from home, with no memory of how he arrived at his current location or how to get back.

As well as the danger the Thorns pose themselves, creatures travelling blind must fight for every step forwards. Without a path already in place, they must create one themselves, hacking through the dense hedges. The Thorns have been known to re-grow behind those who travel blind, leaving them lost or unable to move.

CREATURES OF THE THORNS_____________________________
The common races: The so called ‘common races’ (dragonborn, dwarves, eladrin, elves, half-elves, humans, halflings and tiefling) come range of histories. Oldest of all are the halflings, who travelled to the World Forest from places unknown and settled there.

From the halflings came another race, though very little is known of how they came into the world or what form they took. Some stories tell of them appearing from a halfling witch’s dream, and another of a master inventor building them. What is known is that these beings eventually came to clear a vast section of the World Forest, and built a city that spanned its entirety.

Neither is it known why this race was destroyed. At the height of its magnificence, the great city sunk into the mud, and the race that built it were only ever seen as corpses below the surface. The network of passages, rooms, open squares and great halls is now known as the Labyrinth, and entrances to it can be found all over the Vale.

A great slew of magical energy was released at the death of the great city, and it created new wonders at its touch. Dwarves were born from the living rock of the mountains, and humans from the clay mud that had consumed the city. From the latter came tieflings, in time, evil humans who struck foul bargains with the creatures of the Nine Hells and damned their offspring to bear the mark of this servitude for eternity. It was the tiefling who created the dragonspawn, and the humans soon sought to address the balance by bringing the dragonborn into the world.

The eladrin and elves arrived with the growth of the Thorns, along with the other fey creatures of the Vale. In time some of them were able to throw off the Curse and found settlements of their own.

The other races: The Thorns hold sway over not only the land of the Vale, but also the vast majority of the fey that live within it. As the Thorns grew and covered the earth, the fey were born from them, and born into mental slavery. Satyrs, dryads, eladrin, elves, and many other creatures were these slaves, and remained under the Thorns’ control for centuries. Gradually, small groups of fey threw off what they now refer to as ‘the Curse’, and some (most prevalently the eladrin and elves) founded settlements of their own. Lunaer was one such city, and Garndall another. Illaya’Fae is the largest settlement founded by fey creatures, and comprised of a cross section of all those who have shaken of the Curse.

Freedom from the Curse did not necessarily breed a friendly demeanour however; the Vale’s dryads are quick to attack those who trespass on their groves, its satyrs continue to roam the Vale and do as they please, and the elves and eladrin act no more hospitably to strangers than other races.

The various monstrous races, such as goblins, orcs, kobolds, gnolls and minotaurs, predate the Thorns, and are thus not bound by the Curse (although the Thorns still have the power to bewitch their minds, just as they can any creature).

SETTLEMENTS_______________________________________ ___
In some rare places the Thorns cannot grow. These sheltered pockets, known as glades, are sometimes areas where the Feywild is particularly strong, but sometimes areas where the Shadowfell is particularly strong. Settlements comprised of good or unaligned creatures are built on the former, and settlements comprised of evil creatures are built on the latter. The Vale is sympathetic to the alignments of its denizens however, and a glade can change from Feywild to Shadowfell (or vice versa) depending on who lives there. Usually this process takes at least 25 years, but in rare cases it can be 50 years, centuries, or never happens at all.

There are many glades in addition to the settlements mention below. Some have features of terrain, such as mountains, hills, lakes, springs, forests or copses. Many others have entrances to the Labyrinth, the undead-filled ruins of the metropolis that sank beneath the earth long ago.

Magic items: Note that the magic item economy is not present in the Vale. The Disenchant Item ritual thus has no component cost (DMG pg 155).

Firepoint (Shadowfell):

Firepoint is the largest settlement in the Vale, a city of some 25,000 souls. Its population is a mix of all the standard races, with noticeably less eladrin and more humans. Even monstrous races are common enough here, from gnolls to minotaurs to gnomes to satyrs.

Firepoint was built on the ruins of Narcirca (literally, ‘raven’s cradle’), a great stronghold of the shadar-kai and their first settlement in the Vale. It was destroyed by the eladrin of Lunaer, a battle that cost almost all of the attacking force’s numbers and reduced the city to smoking rubble.

At the time of its destruction Narcirca was situated in a Shadowfell glade, and this fact has not changed since Firepoint’s creation. It becomes noticeably darker and oppressive the closer one draws to the city, and within a mile radius of its city centre there is perpetual drizzle. Firepoint’s architecture, regardless of its designer, invariably looks old and ugly, growing more and more dilapidated as the years go by and eventually falling down entirely. The city is also called ‘the City of Alleys’ because of its narrow, twisting streets and cramped squares. In most places the crowds are thick, crammed into a settlement that is increasingly expanding upwards to make space for its large population.

With no room for fields, and the weather making it impossible to grow anything anyway, Firepoint depends completely on the trade that comes through it. Conveniently, it lies between the farming settlements of the east and the mines of the west, so trade caravans pass through regularly. Effectively, Firepoint controls the wide rose-ways east and west, but should they close for some reason the populace would quickly starve.

Another noticeable feature of Firepoint is its lack of shops. The city has, and always will have, no established market stalls or other places of business where goods can be perused by customers. Instead, a class of people called ‘Bagmen’ (regardless of gender) take orders from customers, and then acquire the goods one way or another. Bagmen are part merchant, part scavenger and part thief, looting, stealing and buying the items their customers want. Rich Bagmen employ a network of other Bagmen (called ‘Runners’) to get their goods, and only handle the customer interaction, but poorer Bagmen must do both tasks.

The time between ordering something and receiving it differ greatly from Bagman to Bagman, and also depend on the rarity of the item. Usually it takes a few days, longer for poor Bagmen and faster for rich ones. Some of the most prominent Bagmen (who therefore have the most and best Runners) can get everyday items in mere hours.

Government: Firepoint is joint ruled by two groups. The first is the nobility, comprised of House Orak, House Sethar and House Lursis. The nobles vote for a Duke or Duchess to rule, and they serve for life (or retirement). The nobles are responsible for maintaining the city’s architecture and infrastructure, and making sure the Watch prevent the undead spilling out from the Labyrinth (which has a large number of entry points in Firepoint). The current Duchess is the human Ekaterina Lursis.

The other group is the Razor Guild, a band of assassins led by a woman called Leshanna Cutter (an eladrin raised by human parents). Miss Cutter, as she prefers to be known, runs the city day-to-day; the Razor Guild is responsible for policing Firepoint, settling legal cases, and maintaining trading affairs. In return, assassins with a Guild licence are free to ply their trade.

Defence: The Watch are Firepoint’s army, a professional body of men and women serving under the nobility. Their primary role is to guard the city from the undead of the Labyrinth, and run regular patrols into its outskirts. In the event of an attack on the city they serve as front-line troops. The entirety of Firepoint are considered to be reserve troops as well, though members of the Razor Guild are called up first.

Commerce: Virtually anything, given time, can be acquired in Firepoint via a Bagman. Magic items and other rarities take considerably longer, and the skill and resources of the Bagman also affect arrival delay.

Organisations: In addition to the Razor Guild, Firepoint boasts a large number of clubs, temples, societies and unions. Each is capable of exerting pressure in the right circumstances, and the temples especially have considerable sway.

Narsopath [Shadowfell]:

Formerly an eladrin town called Lunaer (literally, ‘jewel’), Narsopath (literally ‘raven’s flight’) now stands as the largest of the shadar-kai settlements with a population of roughly 10,000. Lunaer was built in a Feywild glade, but its occupation (beginning some thirty years ago) by shadar-kai has warped the place and its beauty is long gone.

As Lunaer the town was one of the eladrin’s most beautiful, full of graceful architecture and lush gardens. Unfortunately the siege of Narcirca had cost the eladrin army dear, and it was unable to repulse the shadar-kai attack. The invaders swept in with minimal casualties and enslaved the entire populace, a revenge attack for the destruction of Narcirca.

Lunaer’s stately architecture was quickly torn down and replaced with high-density, efficient, and entirely ugly housing. A mass drive by the occupiers occurred town-wide, to both destroy the eladrin’s past to replace it with structures based purely on functionality and resource management. The result was dull, grey, and spirit-crushing, but equally strong, defensible and stable.

All of this was made possible by the creation, immediately after the invasion, of the town’s caste system. The caste has four tiers: upper, middle, lower, and untouchables. The upper class rules the town, filling the role of politicians and nobles. The middle class are the administration, doctors, lawyers, merchants and teachers. The lower class are a slave tier, comprised almost exclusively of eladrin captured during the invasion. They take the more menial yet essential and skilled jobs of the city, plumbers, builders, cleaners, farmers, butchers and bakers. The lowest tier, untouchables, are the outcasts of the caste system. Some still fill a role and are thus eligible for housing and food (albeit of the worst quality), such as undertakers and tanners, but most are those who have been rejected by the town entirely and have only begging or thievery to survive on.

Any member of any tier can be moved up or down according to merit, regardless of race, although the system is weighted to favour the higher tiers (and all eladrin were automatically put into the lower class after the invasion). The caste proved to be so successful in Narsopath that it was rolled out across all the shadar-kai settlements, and all shadar-kai are now part of it.

Government: Narsopath is ruled by its upper tier, a group of citizens who have been singled out from an early age as ruler material and trained in town management. In total, the governing body is comprised of a parliament of 50 men and women, with other members of the tier serving in a permanent position as advisers to the parliament and still more running individual sections of the town (such as the army, hospitals, schools, etc).

Defence: Narsopath employs a professional army, drawn from the middle tier, and they also attend to the policing of the town. In the event of a full-blown invasion, the entirety of the upper and middle tiers are conscripted into a militia and serve on the front-line (though the upper tier is usually placed in positions of command, such as unit captains or full-blown generals).

It is illegal to carry a weapon or use magic without a licence in Narsopath, and such licenses are usually only obtainable if the applicant is a member of the army or of the upper tier.

Commerce: Goods are tightly controlled by Narsopath’s government via the merchants of the middle tier. All items are stockpiled in warehouses as soon as possible, and rationed to the populace according to need. No luxuries exist, and it is only via thieves (usually untouchables) that an individual can purchase anything at all. Narsopath trades with other shadar-kai settlements, but is largely self-sufficient due to the fields within the town walls.

Organisations: Societies of any kind are illegal in Narsopath, aside from its parliament and the two General Meetings, held for the middle and lower tiers every six months. At these meetings, members of the tier are called on to bring relevant matters to the attention of the upper tier (such as the state of housing, food rations, etc). Citizens are not permitted to form organisations before or after the General Meetings however, even if such organisations are concerned with General Meeting business.

[Artanis]

One thing that's irked me considerably about the deities of 4e is that the information about them in the Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Master's Guide seems to have been intentionally left vague. For someone playing a paladin or a cleric, this can be frustrating, as your religion is the most important part of your roleplaying.

The deity that I find the most confusing is the one I'm playing a paladin of at the moment, Pelor. While I'm relieved that there don't seem to be any more "OMG PELOR'Z REELY EVUL!" jokes floating around, the new Pelor seems to be made up of several disparate elements.

He's the Good god of:

• the sun
• summer
• time
• agriculture
• the harvest

Well, agriculture, the harvest, the sun, and summer all fit together really well. As for time, that's a little harder, but it can still tangentally be fit in by relating it either to an aspect of being the god of summer or an aspect of being the god of the sun.

Summer: Summer is a season, and you often hear people (especially in history) seemingly measure time in "seasons". Or at the very least, measuring a year by "oh, it's time to start planting and/or harvesting again!"
The sun: One word: Sundial. Even if nobody has ever even thought of the very concept of a sundial in the default setting, there's still measuring time in terms of days and nights, and further into morning, noon, afternoon, evening, and night.

Neither of these are a perfect fit, but they're a hell of a lot better than some real-world deities I can think of. Mars is a perfect example: he was the Roman god of war...and was an agricultural deity as well (I suspect because soldiers tended to be paid in land, which they would then put a farm on).

He also supports those in need and fights against any and all evil. He's worshiped by humans more than any other deity and his tenets are as following:

• Alleviate suffering wherever you find it.
• Bring Pelor's light into places of farkness, showing kindness, mercy and compassion.
• Be watchful against evil.

To be honest, I find it difficult to reconcile all these different aspects in roleplaying a single character.

What do you think? Is there a way to reconcile all these elements?

Well, it isn't hard to connect the "bring Pelor's light" bit to the fact that he's the god of the sun. He brings light, so his worshippers would do so as well.

As for the "be good and watch against evil", "light" and "darkness" are often equated with good and evil, respectively. The forces of darkness, the dark side of the force, monsters in the night, etc. It's a bit metaphysical, but I can see a connection.

If the second bit is true, then the "alleviate suffering and show kindness/mercy/compassion/etc." would logically follow:

Spoiler

Show

Assume "light = good". Assume that Pelor's followers "bring light"
=> Pelor's followers bring good.
Good usually involves being nice to people and not liking evil
=> Pelor's followers usually try to be nice to people and usually don't like evil
[]

...and yes, I am a mathematician, if you couldn't tell

As for humans liking him the most, humans are stereotypically the "plains people" (as opposed to Elves being "forest people" and dwarves being "mountain people" and whatnot). Ever been out to the Great Plains? Lots of wheat. And corn. And cows. And then more wheat. And then more cows. And then even more wheat. And...well, you get the point. So the people who live in Farmlandia are naturally going to worship the farming god.

What the hell was up with people claiming that Pelor was actually evil anyway? How would one roleplay a Pelorian character in a place where Pelor wasn't the dominant human religion (I'm playing a Pelorian paladin in a place where The Raven Queen is dominant)?

Thank you for your kind attention.

I didn't even realize people were calling Pelor evil. Come to think of it, I didn't actually realize people discussed his alignment one way or another *shrug*.

Anyways, you could roleplay a Peloradin in such a world in several ways (some of which depend on specific aspects of the setting that may or may not be there). He could be a rebellious type fighting the established order, like Robin Hood, only with glowing swords. He could be a secret cultist trying to spread his "subversive, unnatural faith" to the underbelly of society. Or he could just be somebody with a wierd religion.

[Random NPC]

And... that makes it all right?

It doesn't, but that's the point of the Malconvoker (which is F'ing sweet)

OP, you could play a cleric of Pelor who prefers to use his lazer pew pew Lance of Faith and make him more priest like than warrior like. A Paladin is little less different, since he should focus in radiant damage.

I would make his believes be close to Christianity with a sprinkle of spanish inquisition (Nobody would expect it anyway ). He should care for everyone and see they are alright, but never doubt to hurt the transgressors and sinners.

The whole Harvest, agriculture and time goes more to the agrarian believes of Humans and the sun: The sun gives light and warmth, which is good for the crops. The crops keeps us alive and thus it is good. Time is measured by the sun since his movement reflect how much time has passed or how strong it is. If the sun is weak, then we have winter and the crops die. Without the warmth of the sun, we are dead.

Having a Paladin of Pelor in a Raven Queen dominant society is not that hard. He should understand that the Queen is in charge of the time when Pelor has to be absent and where Pelor does not reign, the Raven Queen will. The crops have to die in order to plant them again, so the Raven Queen is respected.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The general feel of my Peloradin at the moment is that of a naive, optimistic country boy suddenly trapped in a world where if he shows any weakness or gullibility someone'll cut his throat and steal his purse.

[Random NPC]

The general feel of my Peloradin at the moment is that of a naive, optimistic country boy suddenly trapped in a world where if he shows any weakness or gullibility someone'll cut his throat and steal his purse.

It feels perfect.

Also, never fear the power of the Tropes

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well...not exactly a farm boy. His human father left his elf mother when he found out she was pregnant, and after he was born she couldn't take care of him on her own, so she gave him to the priests of a tiny Pelorian abbey in a small farming community. He was raised by priests rather than farmers.

[Doomsy]

One thing that's irked me considerably about the deities of 4e is that the information about them in the Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Master's Guide seems to have been intentionally left vague. For someone playing a paladin or a cleric, this can be frustrating, as your religion is the most important part of your roleplaying.

The deity that I find the most confusing is the one I'm playing a paladin of at the moment, Pelor. While I'm relieved that there don't seem to be any more "OMG PELOR'Z REELY EVUL!" jokes floating around, the new Pelor seems to be made up of several disparate elements.

He's the Good god of:

• the sun
• summer
• time
• agriculture
• the harvest

He also supports those in need and fights against any and all evil. He's worshiped by humans more than any other deity and his tenets are as following:

• Alleviate suffering wherever you find it.
• Bring Pelor's light into places of farkness, showing kindness, mercy and compassion.
• Be watchful against evil.

To be honest, I find it difficult to reconcile all these different aspects in roleplaying a single character.

What do you think? Is there a way to reconcile all these elements? What the hell was up with people claiming that Pelor was actually evil anyway? How would one roleplay a Pelorian character in a place where Pelor wasn't the dominant human religion (I'm playing a Pelorian paladin in a place where The Raven Queen is dominant)?

Thank you for your kind attention.

My basic theory?

"Hey, the sun is good, right?" Was the general and most depthful thought involved in writing him up. While many gods have fertility and harvest aspects (primitive people thought about food a lot and hedged their bets accordingly), his portfolio is pretty much all over. Most of it is vaguely connected and badly thought out. This is generally typical for D&D, though. I'd suggest just reorganizing as you see fit and with aid from your DM.

And...Time? What the hell? People used the stars for calenders and navigation, not the largely unchanging amorphous ball of flaming gas. I can get the rest vaguely, but that is just..lazy.

[Artanis]

Mind explaining how, exactly, his portfolio is "pretty much all over"? Pretty much every single aspect of the portfolio can be tied to either A) agriculture, or B) the sun, which are connected to each other.

As for time, the PHB doesn't say he's the god of time. It says he's the Keeper of time, but doesn't say he's the god of it. The fact that people measure time in terms of days (you know, the number of times the sun crosses the sky) ties KEEPING time to the SUN god a lot more closely than many real-world deities.

[Ryuuk]

Sun and Time aren't that far-fetched. If you don't have any other means to tell time, then the position of the sun would pretty much dictates it. For a follower of Pelor, time might simply mean "Sun's up? Need to get to work, the harvest doesn't tend to itself and summer doesn't last forever. Sun's setting? Alright, it's been a long day guys, lets keep going tomorrow."

[Sstoopidtallkid]

He's the Good god of:

• the sun
• summer
• time
• agriculture
• the harvest

He also supports those in need and fights against any and all evil. He's worshiped by humans more than any other deity and his tenets are as following:

• Alleviate suffering wherever you find it.
• Bring Pelor's light into places of farkness, showing kindness, mercy and compassion.
• Be watchful against evil.

To be honest, I find it difficult to reconcile all these different aspects in roleplaying a single character.

Don't forget sunburn, skin cancer, drought, and heat exhaustion.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Uh, that's only if you go out without the proper precautions.

[Doomsy]

Mind explaining how, exactly, his portfolio is "pretty much all over"? Pretty much every single aspect of the portfolio can be tied to either A) agriculture, or B) the sun, which are connected to each other.

As for time, the PHB doesn't say he's the god of time. It says he's the Keeper of time, but doesn't say he's the god of it. The fact that people measure time in terms of days (you know, the number of times the sun crosses the sky) ties KEEPING time to the SUN god a lot more closely than many real-world deities.

1. Days were not that important to feudal cultures. Knowing the seasons and the months were vital. The sun is a fairly useless landmark - it rises, it falls, it has no irregularities to use as marking periods. The first calendars were lunar because it offered a much better way of timekeeping then asking the guy next to you how many days he had on his count. The dog days of summer come from the constellation Sirius being visible in the evening sky, not some arbitrary day count. Same goes for a lot of time keeping styles.

2. Fall was harvest for a large number of important food crops, more than summer in a lot of areas. There are some in summer, but depending on your area...well. Fall is probably the biggest and most well known harvest time, but this can be arguable and depends a lot on specifics of climate and geography. Same argument can be applied to agriculture - it is a blanket term. Planting, harvest, growth, are actual phases and make sense for an agriculturally based community. Which would be every thing above tribal level.

3. All communities in fantasy are agriculturally based, or tribal, or meat eaters using magic butt-pulls to support themselves. Farming goes on any and everywhere. Not even close to 10 percent of all communities who agricultural in nature worship Pelor. It is pretty much just a boilerplate add-on to any gods portfolio, and that includes historical RL ones. Including Thor.
3. His tenents are so painfully generic that they feel they might have been scripted as some corporate memo.

4. If he is Master of Time, what does the God of Time do? Do gods farm out minor roles? Could I get some explanation here? Is he like the, pardon the pun, day manager of the time franchise?

[Tequila Sunrise]

To be honest, I find it difficult to reconcile all these different aspects in roleplaying a single character.

What do you think? Is there a way to reconcile all these elements? What the hell was up with people claiming that Pelor was actually evil anyway? How would one roleplay a Pelorian character in a place where Pelor wasn't the dominant human religion (I'm playing a Pelorian paladin in a place where The Raven Queen is dominant)?

Thank you for your kind attention.

It would help if you could tell us why exactly you're having trouble "reconciling" Pelor's portfolio elements, because I can't see where anyone could have difficulty. Being the god of agriculture and summer is a bit odd--most gods of agriculture focus on the spring season when planting starts--but other than that what's so confusing to you? If it helps, think of Pelor as our real world God in D&D...with the added portfolio element of agriculture.

Something to also consider: just because your character is faithful to Pelor doesn't mean he has to revere all of Pelor's aspects in equal measure, or at all. If certain elements of Pelor's dogma don't make sense with others, drop them. That's what different Pelorian sects are for.

TS

[Artanis]

*Doomsy's post*

Are you saying that the time thing is your one and only objection, and it's enough to ruin the entire portfolio for you?

Further regarding the time thing, tell me how long it is until tuesday. How long do I have to wait for the next Tennessee Volunteers game? My guess is that your answer will be in the form of "X days". And again, it says "keeper of time", not god of, not master of. I have no damn clue what being the "keeper of time" entails, but it does not necessarily mean that he's The Time Guy.

And like I said before, no matter how hokey you think this connection is, there's a LOT of real-life connections that are worse. The god of war also being an agriculture god? The god of hell also being the god of wealth? The god of the ocean also being the god of EARTHquakes? And that's just Roman deities.


As for his tenets, if you are upset about Pelor's being generic, then you must despise a LOT of the DnD deities, because there's a whole lot of generic tenets to go around. As just a few examples, the Raven Queen's tenets boil down to "be a jackass"; Sehanine's to "do your own thing"; and Bahamut's are a lawful, and even more generic, version of Pelor's.

Tell me, what you you suggest he have for tenets?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It would help if you could tell us why exactly you're having trouble "reconciling" Pelor's portfolio elements, because I can't see where anyone could have difficulty. Being the god of agriculture and summer is a bit odd--most gods of agriculture focus on the spring season when planting starts--but other than that what's so confusing to you? If it helps, think of Pelor as our real world God in D&D...with the added portfolio element of agriculture.

Something to also consider: just because your character is faithful to Pelor doesn't mean he has to revere all of Pelor's aspects in equal measure, or at all. If certain elements of Pelor's dogma don't make sense with others, drop them. That's what different Pelorian sects are for.

TS

Mainly trying to reconcile what for all intents and purposes is a farmer's god in a place where farming is all but impossible because of the evil thorns.

[SurlySeraph]

jozan the cleric of Pelor is depicted as casting a least one Evil spell in PHB- symbol of pain.

In Dragon, the evil ex-cleric of Pelor, in a short story (not sure if it was extract from the 3.0 greyhawk era books) voiced the old philosophical suffering problem: "If Pelor is all-powerful, he is not good, and if he is Good, he is not all powerful"

Here is some Pelor Information on his nature of evil essasy:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=846926

Don't forget sunburn, skin cancer, drought, and heat exhaustion.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Mainly trying to reconcile what for all intents and purposes is a farmer's god in a place where farming is all but impossible because of the evil thorns.

Well, like you said. He's a naive upbeat foreigner with a wacky foreign god. Think of him as an ancient Egyptian (whose main gods were all about the Sun and agriculture) who somehow ended up in pre-feudal Norway (whose main gods were all about rainstorms, snowstorms, and pillaging.) He's a major fish out of water, to be sure, so roll with that.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've spoken with my DM. Apparently Pelor has more of a following in the Vale than I originally thought. The only reason I thought the Raven Queen was dominant was because the only divine based character we've met is a priestess of the Raven Queen (She's the DM's character, and is actually a rogue/warlock by class, but is an ordained priestess of the Raven Queen. She's just not a Cleric.). Erathis and Melora have strong followings as well.

[Doomsy]

Are you saying that the time thing is your one and only objection, and it's enough to ruin the entire portfolio for you?

Further regarding the time thing, tell me how long it is until tuesday. How long do I have to wait for the next Tennessee Volunteers game? My guess is that your answer will be in the form of "X days". And again, it says "keeper of time", not god of, not master of. I have no damn clue what being the "keeper of time" entails, but it does not necessarily mean that he's The Time Guy.

And like I said before, no matter how hokey you think this connection is, there's a LOT of real-life connections that are worse. The god of war also being an agriculture god? The god of hell also being the god of wealth? The god of the ocean also being the god of EARTHquakes? And that's just Roman deities.


As for his tenets, if you are upset about Pelor's being generic, then you must despise a LOT of the DnD deities, because there's a whole lot of generic tenets to go around. As just a few examples, the Raven Queen's tenets boil down to "be a jackass"; Sehanine's to "do your own thing"; and Bahamut's are a lawful, and even more generic, version of Pelor's.

Tell me, what you you suggest he have for tenets?

Actually, those gods you are talking about make a hell of a lot of sense. Rome was near the Mediterranean. Think about what happens when you get an earthquake near the ocean or in it, and pretend not to have a modern education. The god of wealth and the god of hell being the same person? Hey, I wonder how primitive people (or modern ones) could possibly link corruption and wealth. It seems like a real stretch, doesn't it? I mean, really. It is not like people who accumulate lots of money quickly or make the acquisition of wealth itself their only goal are ever unpopular, less than honest, altruistic, or any of the other things that would cause people to dislike them.
God of war and agricultural? Like I said, agriculture is the GED of the gods. If you can't swing that your followers starve. Most of them have some attachment to it. Fertility and war are another attached version, and fertility/agriculture were largely linked for the same reason - humans connect sex and violence on several basic levels. We have much the same reactions to both.

As for tenants? Let's see. I'd probably include a lot about keeping a fire burning every night in worship of Pelor, including a candle or such, one that is lit the moment the sun goes down until it goes up. Special dispensation, as always, for extraordinary circumstances. An instruction to always leave a light on in any place you leave as a sign of respect to Pelor - a fire in the hearth, a single candle burning, etc. Oh, and an order to burn the corpses of the enemies as part of a religious ceremony to purify them or the earth of their presence. Simple things but good roleplaying opportunities.

As for your time thing- a God is the Keeper of Time. They don't just GIVE OUT titles. You don't declare yourself the Master of Tides unless you have something to do with the water, or you look like a major class idiot. Unless the God of Time is *employing* Pelor like a common shopclerk, that is pretty much to be considered part of his domain. Another God in his pantheon has it listed, I'll say I'm sorry.

And days are relative. You are talking about counting. You need to have something delivered in a few months, you don't use days. Months are comprised of days yes, have a cookie. Now understand that study of the night sky is how the original calendars were set up, by the movement of constellations everybody in the area could see, and could be used to announce the changing of seasons - and to properly time religious, commercial, and political events without depending on faulty human memory. You can check the stars, you can check a wristwatch. You can't check and be absolutely sure that Frank is sure the guy said 225 days at noon and has not lost the count. Frank might miss a day. Frank might get stabbed in the eye and not remember if it was the 220th day or the 225th. Frank might be a dumbass. Stars are reliable, steady, and can be used to accurately measure time, especially over longer periods of time. That is exactly why we used them for that instead of, "Hey, a few thousand days ago..."