Helping bow characters

[DrizztFan24]

What are the strengths of straight (or recurve) bow characters?

What makes them underpowered?

How can I fix it?

Seems pretty simple huh?

[kamikasei]

You can't power attack with a bow. Power attacking with a bunch of tricks used to boost the multiplier is the standard way to deal worthwhile damage with a melee character (that, or TWFing with a source of bonus damage like Sneak Attack, which also doesn't work very well with archery). Thus, it is quite difficult to get/keep your damage output up to scratch as an archer.

Cleric archers using Zen Archery to use Wis instead of Dex are the usual "gold standard" for archery.

There's also a homebrew discipline for ToB-style archery which offsets these problems by giving you maneuvers which boost your damage.

[Telonius]

For 3.5:

Strengths: Can hit characters that are out of melee range.

Weaknesses: Low damage output, regardless of whether or not it's a Mighty Composite Weapon. Multiple ways for magic-users (and anybody who can UMD a scroll) to avoid ranged attacks altogether (shield spell, wind wall, etc). Awkward sniping rules.

Fixes:

Low damage output - Use the Scout class and Manyshot feat tree. Or, homebrew a feat that allows characters to apply part of their ranged attack bonus to damage, much the same way that Power Attack works for melee weapons. (Always baffled me why this wasn't included in the PHB).

Magic-users - Ban (or nerf) the problematic spells.

Awkward sniping rules - Not a clue.

[Sinfire Titan]

For 3.5:

Strengths: Can hit characters that are out of melee range.

Weaknesses: Low damage output, regardless of whether or not it's a Mighty Composite Weapon. Multiple ways for magic-users (and anybody who can UMD a scroll) to avoid ranged attacks altogether (shield spell, wind wall, etc). Awkward sniping rules.

Fixes:

Low damage output - Use the Scout class and Manyshot feat tree. Or, homebrew a feat that allows characters to apply part of their ranged attack bonus to damage, much the same way that Power Attack works for melee weapons. (Always baffled me why this wasn't included in the PHB).

Magic-users - Ban (or nerf) the problematic spells.

Awkward sniping rules - Not a clue.

A properly optimized archer character is on par with a Barbarian in terms of Damage Output. This is due to Greater Manyshot+Skirmish+Splitting enhancement working wonders together. The other type of archer build (Totemist 20) has no problem with damage at any level, provided they build themselves right and have the right melds shaped.

Then you get into the third type of archer (Warblades with Crossbows). They're nuts in their own way.

[Heliomance]

You can Power Attack with a bow.

Also, The Archery Handbook. Go nuts.

[Telonius]

A properly optimized archer character is on par with a Barbarian in terms of Damage Output. This is due to Greater Manyshot+Skirmish+Splitting enhancement working wonders together.

Which is why I suggested Scout and Manyshot as a fix.

The other type of archer build (Totemist 20) has no problem with damage at any level, provided they build themselves right and have the right melds shaped.

Then you get into the third type of archer (Warblades with Crossbows). They're nuts in their own way.

Unfortunately I don't know all that much about Incarnum classes. What are the big features of these?

(And yes, Warblades are nuts indeed!)

EDIT: Great find on the item! Hadn't heard of that one before. Definitely worth the 22,000 investment.

[DrizztFan24]

I was thinking about my old homebrew.

I had hoped to play this in a PbP game and I wanted to check it's power levels. I had originally thought it overpowered, but then I read it yesterday and remembered i had heard issues brought up about archers.

So looking at above posts it seems like you get two ways to mean something as an archer or something about a river of excrement and a traditional native american mode of transportation and no method of propulsion.

And I cant access the wizards pages at school, so is it a FAQ or something?

EDIT: sorry about the homebrew page with no charts, i have yet to learn how to do charts.

[Saph]

For 3.5:

Strengths: Can hit characters that are out of melee range.

Weaknesses: Low damage output, regardless of whether or not it's a Mighty Composite Weapon. Multiple ways for magic-users (and anybody who can UMD a scroll) to avoid ranged attacks altogether (shield spell, wind wall, etc). Awkward sniping rules.

Wind Wall is pretty much irrelevant in actual games. I've never once seen it used effectively, and I play with some people who are pretty good with casters.

You also left out the biggest strength of archery; you don't have to move to attack. Let's compare a simple case where a meleer and an archer (each with 3 attacks) are fighting a generic Large monster with reach that also has 3 attacks.

Meleer: Moves up and eats an AoO on the way in. Attacks once. Next turn, takes a full attack from the generic monster. Total: Made 1 attack, took 4 attacks.

Archer: Full attacks the monster. Next turn, monster moves up and attacks once. Total: Made 3 attacks, took 1 attack.

I've seen this happen many times in games; the melee guy is almost dead by round 2, while the ranged characters are still putting out full attacks without a problem. This gets especially important in the late game where stronger monsters pretty much never stand around to be full attacked unless its in their interest to do so (in which case they can probably wipe you out with a full attack themselves).

Archery isn't brokenly powerful, but not being overpowered isn't the same thing as being underpowered. I find that archer characters, if built well, are very good for a moderate but consistent supply of ranged damage - they don't hit as hard as the big guns, but they hit more often.

- Saph

[SensFan]

Archer: Full attacks the monster. Next turn, monster moves up and attacks once. Total: Made 3 attacks, took 1 attack.

And now the archer can no longer attack...

[Heliomance]

He does the Munchkin Moonwalk (otherwise known as a 5' step backwards) and full attacks.

[Sinfire Titan]

Which is why I suggested Scout and Manyshot as a fix.



Unfortunately I don't know all that much about Incarnum classes. What are the big features of these?

(And yes, Warblades are nuts indeed!)

EDIT: Great find on the item! Hadn't heard of that one before. Definitely worth the 22,000 investment.

One of the Soulmelds a Totemist can shape grants them Wings with a Fly speed of 10ft+10ft/essentia invested. That same meld also grants a natural ranged attack that is similar in respect to the Spike attacks of the Manticore. For every essentia invested, you get one attack. All attacks from it are like throwing weapons, and all of them get extra damage from Essentia.

There's no limit to how many ranged attacks you can get other than invested Essentia, and there's no limit to the number of times you can use the attacks in a day (unlike the normal Manticore, which has a maximum).

Improved Natural Attack ups the damage from 1d6 to 1d8. A Fanged Ring increases this to 1d10, and any size increases you gain improve the damage as appropriate. It's a standard action to use this attack form to launch all of the spikes that round.

The soulmeld grants you Flyby Attack in addition to the Fly speed.

The Totemist's 20th level class feature effectively doubles the effect you gain when you invest Essentia into your Totem Bind, so every point of Essentia grants you 2 ranged attacks. The maximum number of attacks you can make at 20th level without any other effects involved is 18 (you need a custom item for this, but losing that item is negligible).

That's (1d6+18+Str) per hit. You get 18 attacks, all at a massive bonus. Assuming you have Power attack and a Str of 38 (and Brutal Throw) you have 18 attacks at a +37 attack bonus each. Point Blank Shot increases the damage and attack bonus by 1, so +38. Your Damage/Attack is 1d6+22+Power Attack.

Assuming you PA for 5 and hit with at least 5 of the 18 attacks, you are dealing an average of 152.5 damage per round for 1 minute per point of Con modifier. You also have a Fly speed of 190ft (Clumsy).

Each attack beyond the 5th that hits deals an extra 30.5 damage on average.

Add in Permanencied Enlarge Person (or Psy Tats of Expansion augmented to two or more size categories) and you get a massive amount of damage per attack.

This same trick can be applied to Girallion Arms or the Darkmantle Cloak for extra shenanigans. Action Points allow you to do this more times/day. This trick can get you a grapple bonus of +70 before any feats not named Improved Grapple and any spells are applied.

[MeklorIlavator]

He does the Munchkin Moonwalk (otherwise known as a 5' step backwards) and full attacks.

Except alot of monsters have reach. The way around this is to either cast or have an item of...Arrow mind? There's a spell in the Complete Aventurer that allows Bows to threaten everything around them and to ignore AOO's.

[Saph]

Except alot of monsters have reach. The way around this is to either cast or have an item of...Arrow mind? There's a spell in the Complete Aventurer that allows Bows to threaten everything around them and to ignore AOO's.

5' stepping back usually works (since the monster will probably have moved up to its reach, not inside it).

Arrow Mind also works. It's in the Spell Compendium, too.

- Saph

[Tsotha-lanti]

5' stepping back usually works (since the monster will probably have moved up to its reach, not inside it).

What sorry monster does that? Against casters/archers, you always charge into base contact specifically to make it impossible for them to 5-foot-step away from you.

Don't assume the worst possible tactics on the enemy's part.

(Not that the archer should be getting charged anyway. It's equally bad tactics to not use terrain or tanking fighters to keep the big enemies away.)

[Darrin]

One of the Soulmelds a Totemist can shape grants them Wings with a Fly speed of 10ft+10ft/essentia invested. That same meld also grants a natural ranged attack that is similar in respect to the Spike attacks of the Manticore. For every essentia invested, you get one attack. All attacks from it are like throwing weapons, and all of them get extra damage from Essentia.

I'm not sure that works. Binding the Manticore Belt soulmeld to your waist gives you a fly speed and flyby attack, but doing so prevents you from binding it to your totem chakra, which gives you the spike attack. You could bind the Pegasus Cloak to your shoulders and get fly, but that won't give you flyby attack.

Improved Natural Attack ups the damage from 1d6 to 1d8. A Fanged Ring increases this to 1d10, and any size increases you gain improve the damage as appropriate. It's a standard action to use this attack form to launch all of the spikes that round.

Nothing in the Manticore Belt description identifies the spike attack as being a natural attack, nor does it mention that it would be affected by a change in size (otherwise it would specify that small-sized characters would reduce the spike attack to 1d4).

That's (1d6+18+Str) per hit. You get 18 attacks, all at a massive bonus. Assuming you have Power attack and a Str of 38 (and Brutal Throw) you have 18 attacks at a +37 attack bonus each. Point Blank Shot increases the damage and attack bonus by 1, so +38. Your Damage/Attack is 1d6+22+Power Attack.

Nor does the description mention that the spike attack is treated as a thrown weapon, so I'm not sure you can use Brutal Throw here. The text says you only get 1/2 your strength bonus on damage, Str 38 / 2 = +7. I'm not sure how you're using Power Attack on a ranged attack, either.

[Vinotaur]

The Gold standard for Archery after level 7 is the DMM Persist Cleric with Multiple Splitting Bows, since of course, Persisted Polymorph into an Arrow Demon is sweet.

[Vinotaur]

Wind Wall is pretty much irrelevant in actual games. I've never once seen it used effectively, and I play with some people who are pretty good with casters.

Have you ever had a situation in which a ranged attacker was a threat to them?

I've used Wind wall quite effectively, largely because my Familiar casts it. Though admittedly at higher levels he'd just as soon toss up a Spirit Wall instead.

[Sinfire Titan]

I'm not sure that works. Binding the Manticore Belt soulmeld to your waist gives you a fly speed and flyby attack, but doing so prevents you from binding it to your totem chakra, which gives you the spike attack. You could bind the Pegasus Cloak to your shoulders and get fly, but that won't give you flyby attack.

Totem Bind (Double Chakra) allows this. Remember that this is coming from a 20th level Totemist.

Nothing in the Manticore Belt description identifies the spike attack as being a natural attack, nor does it mention that it would be affected by a change in size (otherwise it would specify that small-sized characters would reduce the spike attack to 1d4).

So be it.

Nor does the description mention that the spike attack is treated as a thrown weapon, so I'm not sure you can use Brutal Throw here. The text says you only get 1/2 your strength bonus on damage, Str 38 / 2 = +7. I'm not sure how you're using Power Attack on a ranged attack, either.

This would be where personal preference comes in. As I usually DM, I rule it as a Thrown weapon. It just makes sense to me. Brutal Throw was to add the extra damage. You make your point, but I play my game a little differently.

[Darrin]

Totem Bind (Double Chakra) allows this.

I don't think that's how it works. Double Chakra allows two soulmelds to occupy the same chakra. It doesn't allow a single soulmeld to occupy two different chakras. As far as I know, there is no feat/ability that allows a soulmeld to be bound to more than one chakra.

Flight + Flyby Attack can still be done with Pegasus Cloak and just taking the Flyby Attack feat.

This would be where personal preference comes in. As I usually DM, I rule it as a Thrown weapon. It just makes sense to me. Brutal Throw was to add the extra damage. You make your point, but I play my game a little differently.

Not a problem. They are all fairly reasonable interpretations of RAI.

[Sinfire Titan]

I don't think that's how it works. Double Chakra allows two soulmelds to occupy the same chakra. It doesn't allow a single soulmeld to occupy two different chakras. As far as I know, there is no feat/ability that allows a soulmeld to be bound to more than one chakra.

Flight + Flyby Attack can still be done with Pegasus Cloak and just taking the Flyby Attack feat.



Not a problem. They are all fairly reasonable interpretations of RAI.

I meant the class feature of the Totemist. 12th level IIRC. It allows you to bind one soulmeld to two different Chakras, provided one of those Chakras is your Totem. The feat has nothing to do with this discussion.

[Bayar]

Raptorans with foot bows. Those are fun. Also, Sun elf artificiers that become Archeficiers at about lvl 7. (polymorph into an arrow demon, wield bows bigger than normal , and dual wield bows)

[Paul H]

Hi

Various builds for archers include scouts & fighters. But if you take one level of Ranger you can use wands of Hunter's Mercy that make your next hit an auto crit.

Also, take a spell-storing bow & team up with a Warmage if you can. Flaming Arrow grants extra D6+Int fire damage from a Warmage (I've done this before). Drop a Scorching Ray into that (also from Warmage), then with your Hunter's Mercy you're doing mega damage. From my LG character that's an extra 36D6+6 Fire damage from the Scorch Ray alone!

Obviously a Holy/Spellstoring Bow is an advantage, as are the Wpn Crystals from MIC.

Lastly, I've got a Dakon cohort who's a Beguiler. Thinking of upgrading his M/w Might Comp +4 Shortbow to a Spellstoring one. Hardly optimised as an archer, but shooting with Imp Invis running, and Inevitable Defeat* stored, should make quite an adversary. (In addition I'll have 'Fired' up his arrows for extra D6+2 fire damage). Don't forget the advantages from shooting whilst Invis.

*Inev Defeat deals 3D6 non-lethal dam first rnd, then additional 3D6 non-lethal dam/rnd (9 rnds) until save made. This case DC21 Will, and every time save is rolled -2Attack/-2AC for one rnd from Unsettling Enchantment).

Cheers
Paul H
PS Main Char is Dwarf Clr 3/Warmage 4/Mystic T 5.
Cohort is Dakon Wiz 1/Beguiler 9. (Str 18)!

[OverdrivePrime]

For ranged damage, I'm partial to the Swift Hunter Ranger mounted on a light horse animal companion. Your horse moves around, and you can take your full attacks to your heart's content.

In theory, anyay. I never wind up playing an archer, as hitting someone in the face with four feet of steel seems so much more personal than filling them with arrows from a distance.

[MeklorIlavator]

Uh, the problem with that its been confirmed that a mounts don't activate skirmish, you have to do it yourself.

[RebelRogue]

What sorry monster does that? Against casters/archers, you always charge into base contact specifically to make it impossible for them to 5-foot-step away from you.

I agree, except you cannot do this with an actual charge action, since it explicitly says you must end your move in the nearest possible position in which you can attack the target.

[OverdrivePrime]

Uh, the problem with that its been confirmed that a mounts don't activate skirmish, you have to do it yourself.

How does that even possibly make sense?

[RebelRogue]

How does that even possibly make sense?

It makes perfect sense: in order to activate a scout's skirmish class feature, he has to move 10' by himself! Being carried 10' by a mount does not work.

[Saph]

What sorry monster does that? Against casters/archers, you always charge into base contact specifically to make it impossible for them to 5-foot-step away from you.

Don't assume the worst possible tactics on the enemy's part.

As mentioned, this doesn't work if charging (though if they have enough movement they can get up and hit you with a standard action).

But even so, dealing out a full attack and taking a standard is a much better opening to the battle than dealing out a single attack and getting a full attack plus an AoO in return.

- Saph

[Samakain]

my favorite archer build i've made so far was a Xeph fighter/psi warrior (Boring i know :P)

Weapon Focus - Comp Long Bow.
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid shot, Improved Rapid Shot
Many Shot, Greater Many Shot
Greater Weapon Fo, Weap Special, Greater Weap Special.
Extra Xeph Boost and Xeph Celerity.

6 boosts a day, celerity lets you trade movement for an extra attack. So with a full attack action thats 6 shots at lvl 20 with 3 of them being at your full BAB. Greater Manyshot is a standard action, so if you have to move you might as well slot 4 arrows into 4 different things while your at it.

you'll never be rich in PP, Force screen for some defense if needed, stop is always handy in the lower levels if things get to close, but mainly precog, offensive and prescience offensive augmented as needed for a nice boost to hit and damage.

plus if you need to book it, your a xeph, drop a boost into speed make a full run action and your a dot on the horizon.

well thats my 2 cents anyway. :

[DrizztFan24]

Well I am getting alot fo builds but I need to know the udnerlying features of teh build taht make them work, I am trying to revamp the earlier mentioned homebrew. It seems like using a ridiculous amount of attacks is the way to go, and spending 22k on a power attack bow thing deal. Missing anything? And that totemist build is out, no straight bows involved.