Bad DM & Bad Party members what do you do?

[MustacheFart]

My last topic was drifting away from what it originally was(mainly in length) so in this one I'll make it short and sweet.

My current game has 3 players: Fighter(myself), Rogue, and Sorcerer

I have a bad DM and 2 bad players.

My DM takes punitive measures against the party but mainly me being melee (the "tank") just because he can really as it seems logical to him.

Ex. Rogue & sorcerer steal magic sword from tavern. BOOM its a -5 cursed sword you can't get rid of. I willingly took it to stop bitching.

The rogue does not act like a rogue. He runs from every battle and once far enough away he sits there doing nothing. Then afterward he complains right and left, "You didn't give me a way to get sneak attack!", "I didn't have anything I could do!", etc.

Sorcerer runs into melee range against trolls and other powerful melee characters. He picks purely dps spells and no spells that could benefit the party. He takes weapon proficiency feats and no metamagic feats. I haven't seen him even use one of his feats.

My character: stuck with -5 to hit, has been glue keeping everything going, and main tie-in to the story.

Basically, my character is set up to be the "Link" of the game ("The big hero to stop the BBEGs) though he doesn't realize it.

Do I stop being nice to party members? Do I do what I want to have fun? Or, do I tolerate it to keep story going and become the hero?

I have an 8 wisdom but I've had to play it like I had an 18. My character should not be the wise leader he's been forced to be.

Am I justified to kill sorcerer if he's responsible for our being thrown in prison(Troll incident & rogue was off on his plot quest)?

[Behold_the_Void]

Best idea I can see here is to stop playing in the game, it's obviously not something you're enjoying.

[elliott20]

I don't know, bad tactical choices is something that people need to learn, not just innately know. so you need to either help them by directing them a little, or you need to just live with it.

but really, if it bothers you that much, quit.

[Flickerdart]

Roll up a Batman Wizard. Enjoy.

a) Your DM will no longer punish you for being the tank.
b) (Greater) Invisibility and flanking with summons in combat helps the Rogue sneak attack.
c) Compensating for the Sorcerer's incompetence in the magical arts. After he sees you dominate with Save or Dies and battlefield control, he'll want some of his own.
d) You'll never have to rely on these idiots ever again because Wizards are just that good.
e) Fox's Cunning and Owl's Wisdom on your party members means you can say "your character wouldn't do that" when they start being retarded.
f) If all else fails, Dominate Person them and whenever they do stupid things, wrench away control and fix it.

For a lot of these to have impact, get your DM to level you up a few times.

[LibraryOgre]

Quit. No gaming is better than bad gaming.

[Lert, A.]

If they are really a bad group you can quit and have a chance of finding a group that you can get along with.

Have you actually talked to these people about how you don't like being the designated punching-bag or are you just venting on the internet, hoping that somebody will stand up and say "Hell, yea! Kill 'im in 'is sleep!" ?

[Nerd-o-rama]

First, make sure your friends (these are friends, right?) know you're having a problem with their playstyle. Second, if they're willing, explain the rules to them. That rogue should not have a problem getting sneak attack, seeing as he can just stand on the other side of a monster from you and gain it from flanking. (I assume by your use of "rogue" and "sorcerer" that you're playing 3.5e here). That sorcerer probably just doesn't know how to build an effective character; there's no problem playing a blaster sorcerer (although it is inefficient with a fighter and rogue as the only other party members), but explain to him that it'd be better for him to play to his strengths (spells) rather than trying to stab things. You already have two stabbers. You are covered on stabbing.

As for the cursed sword, I'd say find a friendly NPC cleric or wizard to cast Remove Curse on you, but if the GM just gave it to you to be a jerk, he may not let you. Ask anyway.

Also, be careful about declaring your character The Chosen One without DM or party consent. Much safer to have the whole party be The Chosen Ones. In spite of the other guys' tactical nonsense, this is supposed to be a team game.


If all this is too much effort or doesn't work, quit.

[Mikeavelli]

Had this experience once, for various reasons I couldn't just get another group (I was living in Germany at the time, they were the only English-speaking Gamers I knew of!):

Had a DM who thought taking max ranks in a skill was Min-maxing, a fighter-type who rolled up a new character every session because he'd end up dying halfway through, etc.

There are two solutions:

1. As the fighter\leader, if you weren't leading them effectively, there would be a TPK. Prove it, charge in suicidally and get yourself killed. Roll up a new Character that doesn't have a -5 Cursed sword. Preferably a Batman wizard or Druid. Then break the game.

2. If your fellow party members are open to it, explain to them in great detail the benefits of playing intelligently. Point out exactly what they can do, how they can build their characters, etc. If you make intelligent suggestions (reading these forums enough will give you a good feel for Character Optimisation, even if it isn't the focus) - they'll start listening to you, and adjust appropriately.

Everyone enjoys kicking ass, Tell your rogue to do some flanking, he'll come around once he gets the feel of those nice, sweaty D6's in his palm.

Blasting is an effective Sorcerer strategy. It's not the optimum strat for a caster, but it'll get the job done. So long as he stands back and does his job, while you do your job of being the punching bag, he should be adequate.

3. Have a blunt talk with the DM. They tend to appreciate that before you go storming off, which leads me to #4...

4. Storm off and find a new group. Despite all these suggestions, it sounds more like you don't get along with the people in your group, rather than they just don't play their characters effectively. Resolving conflicts is better because there will always be **** like this that pops up in Gaming groups, but sometimes they're just unresolvable.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Quit and find another group to play with.

Seriously, why do people play with groups that clearly are not fun to play with? It can't be that freaking important to get to game at any cost.

[Kizara]

Basically, you have 3 options:

1) Teach them. Explain to them in a way that they will listen what they are doing wrong, how they could be more effective, and how they could realize their character concept (point the sorceror at the duskblade, point the rogue at the ninja, explain the concept of "being useful"). Lead them, motivate them, help them be involved in the game. Your DM seems to want you to be the driving force, so live up to it. Honestly, if it gets really bad, find a way to replace your current party members with new ones (see suggested classes for how they play).

2) Play your own game. You say your DM favors you? Great, that's all you really need here. Pick a character that's really good at soloing (I like a DMM Quicken cleric, but you may have other preferances) and move the plot by yourself. Allow your PC teammates to assist you, order them as needed (try not to be bossy, that's not the idea here), and make sure to wash your hands of any nonsense they pull. You have a destiny and you must fulfill it, don't let it be derailed by their shenagigeans. Also, flickerdart's suggestions on this point are solid except that wizards don't solo well at lower levels. You can manage from about 5 on, and its cake after 9, but before 5 its a bit tough with no backup.

3) Leave, find another/start your own group etc. Also, a variant of this is you could offer to DM and show him/them how its done. Create NPCs that have high mental stats that help them with tactics and are super-effective compared to your players. Don't cheat, just make decent choices. Fully explain your choices and show your NPC's character sheets when your players whine about it. Hopefully, they can learn something.

[Kris Strife]

Remember, any problem can be solved with correctly applied violence.

But in all seriousness, quit and find another group. Use PbP if neccessary... Though it might take a while to find one.

[Khanderas]

If the cursed sword can be given to another, why not let the sorcerer pick it up ?
After he understands that melee is not the way to go for someone whos armour is cloth.

Quite amazed that they did not want to hold on to the cursed sword, but are fully OK with YOU, the FIGHTER to have it. THE class who would lose the most.

Edit: Kinda curious as to how you were to set the rogue up for sneak attacks if he runs away. Knock them unconcious, drag them over to the rogue once the fight is over and let him do his "OMG 2d6 sneak attack" ?
But I second the idea of just pointing out that he can get sneak attacks by just flanking. How he could find his idea of sneak attacking useful in any way eludes me, but as he is intrested in using it (to the exclusion of all else it seems) instructing him on how to use it much more often would be a bonus as mentioned by someone else a few posts up.

As for the sorcerer... well... perhaps a few deaths would cure that. Hopefully a reroll and that his character dies with the cursed sword so you get rid of that.

[Kaiyanwang]

Quit. Now. Do it. Do it. Now. Quit. Quit.

[MustacheFart]

are you just venting on the internet, hoping that somebody will stand up and say "Hell, yea! Kill 'im in 'is sleep!" ?

Actually, you hit the nail on the head. I think this makes up 30-40% of my post. Thanks for calling me out on it, I definitely got a chuckle out of it.

Also, be careful about declaring your character The Chosen One without DM or party consent. Much safer to have the whole party be The Chosen Ones. In spite of the other guys' tactical nonsense, this is supposed to be a team game.

Actually, the DM has made my character "The Chosen One." Sorry I wasn't descriptive enough. What happened was, I wrote up a backstory at the DM's request. He then really liked it and since nobody else came up with a backstory, he implemented to the following degree. It's due to this, why I don't want to just bail on the character. I feel like I'd miss not completing it as well as hurt the DM who put in the work implementing it.


As to all the people saying, "you should just quit." Thanks, but I really don't want to do that. I mean I enjoy the game (certainly more than the 1/month political intrigue game with a gm who blackballs) as far as the plot goes. I just haven't been enjoying myself playing my character and I really know why.

I have played many melee character before as I usually get pidgeon-holed into playing them. That's a bit of a cop-out I know as I think it's more due to my personality traits that I end up doing melee. I just have a higher respect for guys who get out there and slug it out than characters who rely on parlor tricks (this is a trait/flaw of mine that goes way beyond DnD into other RPing games, console games, and just whatever game I'm playing). I'm mostly of german blood which I think is why I am so competitive. I mean blowing something up with a massive spell is impressive but in my eyes charging forward against all odds and decapitating the BBEG is even more impressive. Don't get me wrong I LOVE wizards and have been wanting to play another.


Anyway, I don't want to just quit simply because I like the game for the most part, the DM is pretty understanding/willing-to-listen, and I'm playing with friends.

More than anything I think I am wondering how to go about fixing the problems I have. I think they boil to these issues:

1) Playing a melee character, specifically a tank/beatstick I like to be able to do stuff other than just beating a mob senseless. Pure Hack and Slash = boring after a while. Unfortunately, most melee characters (at least ones I've played using core books...ie. fighter/barbarians) are not very well rounded.

2) How to be more authoritative without offending. I mean since the DM has evolved the plot around me and my character can see that, does that entitle me to be more forthcoming? Like I said, I've tried "teaching" the other players by saying stuff like: "Dude you should of did this it would have worked better but good try nonetheless" and "You should get X and X spells they can really make you deadly. *add example of how*" but they don't listen.

3) Even when I try to do my job ie beat on a mob. The DM ends up doing one of the following:
- NPC/Mob of significance teleports away with barely any life
- NPC/Mob of significance runs away then returns later with clear upperhand

I think the last issue I need to take up with my DM. I've mentioned it before but hesimply replied, "I've only had them get away one time before, maybe twice." In reality I haven't got to get a good kill in yet. Anyone of significance was either burned down by the Sorcerer or ran.

As an example a Big dragon attacked myself and sorcerer while we road a Pegasus in the air. DM figured we wouldn't/couldn't win and would run. I stayed and fought solo as the sorcerer got blinded. I then got blinded but led dragon through forest. Blind wore off, I kicked dragon's ass, and DM has him teleport off at last second. Felt like punishment for his short-comings.

I'm honestly thinking aside from talking to my DM again what I will do is during the next big fight, I'll simply find a reason to walk off. They get whooped/captured and hopefully learn not to rely on me without helping. Kind of pushing the young birds out of the next and hope they learn to fly.

-------------------

Side note: is there a topic or article I can reference to make a batman wizard? I assume its a wizard who utilizes UMD a lot in order to use a lot of "gadgets"?

Thanks for help guys!

[The Minx]

I echo the suggestion to quit. But first at least try to demonstrate to them how they would fare without you, either by getting the fighter killed or first by going home early one day (and taking the character with you, it is always possible to move him out of their reach in-universe). If the party survives anyway, then fine, they'll be OK then after you leave.

On killing the Sorcerer: I'd say that depends on your character's alignment.

[Talic]

My last topic was drifting away from what it originally was(mainly in length) so in this one I'll make it short and sweet.

My current game has 3 players: Fighter(myself), Rogue, and Sorcerer

I have a bad DM and 2 bad players.

Let me get this straight. Everyone in the game other than yourself sucks?

The best idea would be to leave the group. Whether it's you or them, there's no compatibility there.

[MustacheFart]

Use PbP if neccessary... Though it might take a while to find one.

What's PbP?

I guess I'm not eager to quit simply because most of my friends don't play DnD. As for the ones that do, many of them have moved away. I'm not sure how to go about finding a group otherwise. My local comic store, other than my group, is occupied by just creepy greasy Warhammer players.

I'm being melodramatic about most of it, sorry guys. I think I'll just play the character and not let it play me if that makes any sense.

----

Once again, whats a batman wizard?

[kamikasei]

What's PbP?

"Play by Post". Forum-based games, mainly; we have a section for them here.

Once again, whats a batman wizard?

A wizard played to the wizard's strengths. Don't try to do the things the rest of the party has covered, do the things that only you can do. "Batman" because, firstly, your spellbook becomes your utility belt, and secondly because like Batman you "always win, with enough preparation". Google "logic ninja batman wizard" for the original guide that named the idea.

[Kizara]

A wizard played to the wizard's strengths. Don't try to do the things the rest of the party has covered, do the things that only you can do. "Batman" because, firstly, your spellbook becomes your utility belt, and secondly because like Batman you "always win, with enough preparation". Google "logic ninja batman wizard" for the original guide that named the idea.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ghlight=batman

^^ save you the trouble, that's the guide. Iit's a bit dated now, but still solid advice for the most part.

[MustacheFart]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Another question, how have any of you kept from getting bored when playing...basically a fighter? They seem like pure rinse and repeaters. Just looking for some ideas to spice my guy up a notch. Any ideas/topics/guides are much appreciated!

[Kizara]

Do you have access to any splat at all? Even complete warrior?

I think that's what most people around here do, assuming they don't just sell out and play a ToB class.

[MustacheFart]

Ya I have to get anything beyond the core books approved. However, my DM is pretty lenient... I'd say mostly everything but ToB I can use. So, CW yes that's be easy to get approval for. Feel free to suggestion anything outside ToB (haven't found a DM yet who'll let me use it).

[kamikasei]

Psychic warriors were the "like a fighter, but not boring and stupid" class before ToB. Given their limited power list, powers known, and power points per day, they shouldn't be too hard to sell to a DM who doesn't have an irrational aversion to psionics in general.

[Tengu_temp]

Alternatively, a cleric - use self-buffs and you're better than a fighter in combat, while having full spellcasting and some utility (diplomacy and knowledge (religion) are class skills) on top of that.

[pjackson]

The rogue does not act like a rogue. He runs from every battle and once far enough away he sits there doing nothing.

That sounds very rogue like to me. Not every character need to be built for combat. But with only 3 people I can see such a character causing problems.

Then afterward he complains right and left, "You didn't give me a way to get sneak attack!", "I didn't have anything I could do!", etc.

Is that said in character or OOC?

Sorcerer runs into melee range against trolls and other powerful melee characters. He picks purely dps spells and no spells that could benefit the party. He takes weapon proficiency feats and no metamagic feats. I haven't seen him even use one of his feats.

There is nothing wrong with being a melee sorcerer as such. I have been playing one recently. Now I did take a level of monk to start with and went into enlightened fist. But as a Monk 1/sorcerer 4 he was basically a sorcerer who meleed. Mage armour or some equivalent would be needed though. I was playing on taking Haste as my first third level spell - boosting my melee but also buffing the rest of the party.

Do I stop being nice to party members? Do I do what I want to have fun? Or, do I tolerate it to keep story going and become the hero?

Talk to your DM and other players. The game needs to be fun for everyone including you.

There is nothing wrong with some players playing relatively ineffectual characters so long as they know what they are doing, and the DM adjusts the encounters accordingly.

[Kizara]

Ya I have to get anything beyond the core books approved. However, my DM is pretty lenient... I'd say mostly everything but ToB I can use. So, CW yes that's be easy to get approval for. Feel free to suggestion anything outside ToB (haven't found a DM yet who'll let me use it).

(Yes, the cleric is a better fighter then the fighter after level 3 or so. At least as long as you don't have a whole lot of encounters per-day. But I'm going to try to give you some non-magicy options. If you want advice on how to play a cleric as a combat god using coreish spells and feats, myself and others can oblidge.)

Some cool melee builds (using nothing but Cwar and core):

Barb 1/hexblade 3/ftr 2/frenzied beserker 10.
WEEEEEE....
Feats are like: extra rage, intimidating rage, destructive rage, power attack, cleave, leap attack.

Yea, about Leap Attack. Read what that does. Now, realize you should take it for every single melee build that doesn't suck. Now do so. (Oops, that's Cadventurer, so make sure to get that 1 feat approved from there.)

Pal 5/Ftr 4/Cavalier 10.
Whooosh BAM!
Feats are like: Power attack, cleave (nothing says you can't cleave off your lance charge, and all the bonuses still apply, and the lance is a reach weapon, and a 2Her by RAW), weapon focus (lance), Mounted combat chain.

Also, generally I find the tactical feats Combat Brute or Shock Trooper to be useful (generally one or the other) in many builds. Also, the calvary charger feat is flavorful but pretty situational. It lets you do the whole "charge of the Rohirrin" thing tho, which owns.

If your DM likes teleporting spellcasters, take Mage Slayer (Carcane). You could also make a bar 1/fighter 2/hexblade 3 style build for occult slayer (a VERY solid class) and have fun being a mage chewer. Even in more optimized groups, its not a bad build with this kind of material availible.

Bear warrior is also very fun and very easy to qualify for, and is quite a solid class power-wise.

If you wanted a dex-based fighter, swashbuckler is another nice 3-level class. I'd go like Swash 3/ftr 2-4/dervish 10. Dervish is a very strong class if played right in this sort of metagame (low optimization).

[Talic]

Bear Warrior's a trap. Natural weapons miss out on power attack multipliers. Natural attack progression gives you less attacks in the long run.

That said, Shock trooper and Combat brute can be good.

As long as you power attack for 5, next round you power attack, it's for 5 too.

So... Robilar's Gambit/Shock Trooper/Combat Brute.

Shock Charge enemy 1. Knock half his life off.
Round 2. Shock Charge enemy 2. Provoke attack from enemy 1. He hits you, you get a free hit back, at the full bonus with extra multiplier from combat brute. Then finish charge, and knock enemy 2 for a loop. Bonus if enemy 1 had enemy 3 beside him, and you have cleave.

It's the "Never stay still" combat method. Works really well, as long as your HP hold out.

[RebelRogue]

First of all, this sounds like a bad situation, but when that is admitted, I must say I don't really like this idea of labelling something as "wrong" when RPGing. Some people like suboptimal characters and/or less than logical personalities for various reasons. That's not the same as being a jerk at the table (although it can be a fine line), and even that is not a "wrong" way to play, just an annoying one. Moreover, all these suggestions of playing more or less cheesy characters to show people the "right" way to play seems elitist and not really a good idea to me. If anything, you just (re)prove that 3.5 can be broken if you allow it too, which is getting pretty around here...

[Kizara]

Bear Warrior's a trap. Natural weapons miss out on power attack multipliers. Natural attack progression gives you less attacks in the long run.

That said, Shock trooper and Combat brute can be good.

As long as you power attack for 5, next round you power attack, it's for 5 too.

So... Robilar's Gambit/Shock Trooper/Combat Brute.

Shock Charge enemy 1. Knock half his life off.
Round 2. Shock Charge enemy 2. Provoke attack from enemy 1. He hits you, you get a free hit back, at the full bonus with extra multiplier from combat brute. Then finish charge, and knock enemy 2 for a loop. Bonus if enemy 1 had enemy 3 beside him, and you have cleave.

It's the "Never stay still" combat method. Works really well, as long as your HP hold out.

Sure, but now actually build that over a class/level progression and realize how many books you are pulling from. Cause, seriously, that's ALOT of feats.

[Raum]

Actually, the DM has made my character "The Chosen One."

Depending on how it affects game play, I'd consider character suicide just because of this. Singling one PC out isn't usually good (for anyone other than that player) in cooperative games.

1) Playing a melee character, specifically a tank/beatstick I like to be able to do stuff other than just beating a mob senseless. Pure Hack and Slash = boring after a while. Unfortunately, most melee characters (at least ones I've played using core books...ie. fighter/barbarians) are not very well rounded.

There's always CoDzilla. Both can dish out at least as much damage as a fighter. But other than switching classes this is a limitation of D&D. Other systems may work better if you and your friends are interested in trying them.

2) How to be more authoritative without offending. I mean since the DM has evolved the plot around me and my character can see that, does that entitle me to be more forthcoming? Like I said, I've tried "teaching" the other players by saying stuff like: "Dude you should of did this it would have worked better but good try nonetheless" and "You should get X and X spells they can really make you deadly. *add example of how*" but they don't listen.

As friends in a social situation you only have as much authority as the others are willing to cede. Crossing that line can easily ruin friendships.

Frankly I'd just let them play what and how they're comfortable.

3) Even when I try to do my job ie beat on a mob. The DM ends up doing one of the following:
- NPC/Mob of significance teleports away with barely any life
- NPC/Mob of significance runs away then returns later with clear upperhand

I think the last issue I need to take up with my DM.

Yes. Tell him the RR gets old. It really sounds like your DM may be trying to "win" the game.

I've mentioned it before but hesimply replied, "I've only had them get away one time before, maybe twice." In reality I haven't got to get a good kill in yet. Anyone of significance was either burned down by the Sorcerer or ran.

I do have to ask, is this issue endemic to the game or is it simply that your character hasn't gotten a kill? In other words, is it a spotlight issue instead of a DM who wants to win?

Side note: is there a topic or article I can reference to make a batman wizard? I assume its a wizard who utilizes UMD a lot in order to use a lot of "gadgets"?

Nah, a batman wizard is simply one who uses "save or lose" spells in combination with divinations to help ensure he has the right save or lose spells ready. There are several guides around, just search for wizard optimizations.