[Pathfinder RPG] ECL20 Fighter with 9 attacks

[Monation]

So in case anyone doesn't still know about Pathfinder RPG, I'm just going to leave this little link over here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG
Some quick info on Pathfinder:

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Pathfinder is basically 3.5 with some much needed fixes to various game mechanics (grapple anyone? polymorph?) and updates to the base classes so they are on par with the most recent supplementary classes from 'complete' books and others. Skills are now more logical and realistic. Feats are gained faster (every even level) and work much better.

So now that that's over with... I was trying to construct a proficient Fighter built around Two-Weapon Fighting. He will begin using a Scimitar and Short sword and later switch to just his Scimitar upon reaching lvl8 with Weapon Swap, the only Pathfinder feat in the whole build. (After you make all your mainhand attacks, it lets you swap you mainhand weapon to you offhand so you can make all your offhand attacks with the same weapon.)

Here's his feat progression: (lv = level feat | f = Fighter feat)

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1lv Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
1f Dodge
2f Two-Weapon Fighting
3lv Combat Focus (+2/4 Will)
4f Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
5lv ->Combat Stability (3lv)(+4/8 vs. Grapple, Trip, Bull rush, Overrun)
6f Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7lv ->Combat Defense (change Dodge as Immediate / +1 to Dodge)
8f Weapon Swap <--Pathfinder RPG Feat
9lv Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
10f ->Combat Vigor (9lv)(Fast Healing 2/4)
11lv Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
12f Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13lv Blind Fight
14f ->Combat Awareness (12lv)(learn HP of enemys / blindsense 5ft)
15lv ->Combat Strike (15lv)(+6 Attack & Damage, 1 round)
16f Improved Critical (Scimitar)
17lv Greater Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
18f Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) (+2 attack&damage with slashing)
19lv Slashing Flurry (one extra attack, -5Attack to all attacks in the round)
20f W.Supremacy (Scimitar)(+5 vs. Disarm, Full Attack even when grappled, +5 on one Attack after first hits, take10 on 1roll/round, +1AC)

He does not have Power Attack because he relies on a massive attack bonus so that every single one of his blows lands. The "Combat" feats are in there to improve the character all around, they improve after three of them are chosen, hence the '/' sign. Also, Combat Strike gives him a good extra +6 to attacks and damage on a single round, which would make him hit a lot harder in all his 6 attacks at level 15 (and 9 attacks at level 20).

Next up an analysis of how much average damage he would deal at level 20 in a single round. This calculation is assuming he used his Combat Strike feat and was wielding a +1 Vicious Flaming Burst Shocking Burst Scimitar (+6 Scimitar). It includes two confirmed critical hits (25% chance to hit a critical, 15-20/x3). Assuming no other items and STR of 22.

Attack:

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BAB: +20/+15/+10/+5
STR: +6
2WF: -2
Weapon Training: +4 <--Pathfinder RPG class ability
Weapon Focuses: +2
Combat Strike: +6
Slashing Fury: -5 (and one extra attack)
Weapon Mastery: +2
Weapon: +1 Vicious Flaming Burst Shocking Burst Scimitar
Mainhand Attacks: +34/+34/+29/+24/+24 (+5 to lowest from W.Supermacy)
Offhand Attacks: +34/+29/+24/+19
Total: +34/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+24/+19/

Damage:

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1d6+1(Weapon)
+6(STR)
+6(C.Strike)
+2d6(Fire/Shock)
+2d6(Vicious)
+12(Weapon Training & Feats)
Total: 5d6+25 = ~40 (Offhand ~37)
Critical chance: 15-20/x3

2 assumed criticals:

Critical Damage:
2d6+2(Weapon)
+12 (STR)
+12 (Combat Strike)
+2d6 (Fire/Shock) <--not multiplied
+2d6 (Vicious) <--not multiplied
+24 (Training & Feats)
+4d10 (Weapon Bursts) <--not multiplied (weapon is considered 'x3', so 2 bursts each)
Total: 6d6+4d10+50 = ~90 (Offhand ~84)

Mainhand: 40x4 + 90(critical) = 250
Offhand: 37x3 + 84(critical) = 195

Total damage dealt in one round: 445 HP

Here are some other feats I had considered to add but decided not to in the end:

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Quick Draw
Armor Specialization (12lv)(DR 2/- with armor)
Steadfast Determination (Con to Will)
Iron Will
->Indomitable Soul (Reroll vs fear/mind affecting)
Einhander (6lv)(+2AC while defensive, +2 vs AoO, Free feint after full attack)
Dash (+5 Speed)
Power Critical (+6 to confirm critical roll)
Victor's Luck (Reroll a critical confirmation)
->Unbelievable luck (+2 rolls for Victor's Luck, +2 Will)
True Believer (+2 to one save per day, can use relics)

So I'd like to know what your opinion on this build is, which options or items would go well with it. I hadn't thought about the 9d6 damage he takes from vicious after I calculated all of this, so that weapon ability could change. Although this is a pure fighter build, it would be interesting to see what a Tempest build would produce. General critique is appreciated since this is a character I will probably be playing in the near future. If you have any questions on where a certain feat comes from I'll be glad to post which books they correspond to, but for now I shall go to sleep.

[Kaiyanwang]

I like this charachter concept.
I did something similar with "regular" 3.5. Snow Elf, Double Scimtar and a little bit of dragon magazine.

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Alternative class feature: only light armor prof, + Initiative, dex as competence bonus against flat-footed enemies

Dodge
TWF
Weapon Focus (Dob Scm)
Weapon Spec (Dob Scm)
Mobility
Combat Expertise
Spring Attack
Whirlwind
TWF II
Weapon Focus (Dob Scm) II
TWF III
Improved Critical (Dob Scm)
Weapon Spec (Dob Scm) II
Slashing Flurry
Staggerng Critical
Weapon Mastery
Double Blade Whirl
Improved Whirlwhind

Not as much as effective, but can reach 9 attacks in a round without magic items, full attack grappled and slows on crits.

I think about her being something like a sharp winter wind..

Don't know so much Pathfinder... how does weapon training works?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Not that up on Pathfinder, but there is always the Whirling Frenzy Barb, the Dervish, and any of the ways to get Pounce to boost #of attacks and chances to full-attack. You need a way to make certain you'll get full attacks otherwise the whole thing is wasted.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Damage calculations should always take account of an AC (you shouldn't calculate potential damage, you should calculate actual statistical average damage). The real average damage against opponents with AC in the 30s is something like 200-300.

That aside, you're still relying on full attacks and inflicting 31.5 damage on yourself every round. You're without a doubt better off reducing your maximum damage potential by 63 and improving your own combat endurance immeasurably (i.e., ditching vicious).

Also, a critical range of 15 to 20 is a 30% chance. 1=15-14, and (20-14)x5% = 30%. Or, there are 6 positive outcomes (15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20), and 6 out of 20 is 30%.

It's still a decent enough build (without other Pathfinder-enabled builds to compare it to...), although Weapon Swap sounds like the most ridiculous feat yet. You TWF... with a single weapon? Huh?

[Starbuck_II]

Power Attack shouldn't be taken because it sucks. I can't imagine how one will justify taking it in Pathfinder.
Before you could PA low like -1 or -2 so good damage and hit, but now you can't adjust amount.

But that build looks good.

[imperialspectre]

Power Attack isn't bad in Pathfinder, it's just pretty much all-out and you have to charge and find other circumstantial bonuses to attack to make it work.

You need full attacks on a charge, as has already been pointed out. Getting a speed enchantment on the main-hand scimitar might be nice.

Other than that, it's a nice example of effective fighter optimization in Pathfinder. You're still just a damage monkey, but you're certainly good at it.

[Starbuck_II]

Power Attack isn't bad in Pathfinder, it's just pretty much all-out and you have to charge and find other circumstantial bonuses to attack to make it work.

You need full attacks on a charge, as has already been pointed out. Getting a speed enchantment on the main-hand scimitar might be nice.

Other than that, it's a nice example of effective fighter optimization in Pathfinder. You're still just a damage monkey, but you're certainly good at it.

Oh come on, PA in Pathfinder is as bad as one handed Power attack but you aslways must use highest penalty.

[imperialspectre]

...and with Leap Attack, you're doubling it. With Overhand Chop, you're getting your STR bonus again to damage. And it goes on. If you're willing to take the penalties, it's still a solid option for a charger (and of course there's always Shock Trooper + Karmic Strike).

[Monation]

Don't know so much Pathfinder... how does weapon training works?

Weapon Training is something the Fighter earns every few levels, at 5, 9, 13 & 17. Each time he receives the class feature, he can select one group of weapons from a list of groups. ie: Axes, Heavy blades, Light blades, Bows, Double, Flails, Hammers, Pole Arms, Close, Monk, Spears, Thrown, Crossbows.

Also, a critical range of 15 to 20 is a 30% chance. 1=15-14, and (20-14)x5% = 30%. Or, there are 6 positive outcomes (15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20), and 6 out of 20 is 30%.

It's still a decent enough build (without other Pathfinder-enabled builds to compare it to...), although Weapon Swap sounds like the most ridiculous feat yet. You TWF... with a single weapon? Huh?

Hmm yeah I hadn't noticed that 15-20 is actually closer to one in three!
And yep, Weapon Swap sounds kind of overpowered until you realize it's what they call a [Combat] Feat in Pathfinder, not to be mistaken for the other Combat feats I took. You can only use one [Combat] feat per round, so that means I can't use Power Attack, Cleave, Two-Weapon Rend, Two-Weapon Pounce or a whole lot of other Feats that same turn. I think they included it so that Two Weapon fighters don't have to spend insane amounts of money on both of their weapons.
I was going to go with another feat but my campaign world doesn't really have very powerful magic items. That means I'll be stuck with about half my average Gold Pieces per level.

...and with Leap Attack, you're doubling it. With Overhand Chop, you're getting your STR bonus again to damage. And it goes on. If you're willing to take the penalties, it's still a solid option for a charger (and of course there's always Shock Trooper + Karmic Strike).

The problem with Overhand Chop is it's also a [Combat] feat. That means you can't use both in the same round -_-.

[Tsotha-lanti]

And yep, Weapon Swap sounds kind of overpowered until you realize it's what they call a [Combat] Feat in Pathfinder, not to be mistaken for the other Combat feats I took. You can only use one [Combat] feat per round, so that means I can't use Power Attack, Cleave, Two-Weapon Rend, Two-Weapon Pounce or a whole lot of other Feats that same turn. I think they included it so that Two Weapon fighters don't have to spend insane amounts of money on both of their weapons.

I don't think it's overpowered, I just think it's stupid and nonsensical. A two-weapon fighter with one weapon... that misses the entire point. How does switching hands let you attack faster with the same weapon, anyway?

[RTGoodman]

I don't think it's overpowered, I just think it's stupid and nonsensical. A two-weapon fighter with one weapon... that misses the entire point. How does switching hands let you attack faster with the same weapon, anyway?

When this thread first started a couple of days ago, I wanted to post the same thing, but I was afraid that thought that. How is that kind of thing even justified as making sense?

[Monation]

Taken from the Beta Playtest document:

Weapon Swap (Combat)
With an acrobatic twist, you can swap your weapons from
one hand to another.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting,
Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: After making all of your attacks with
your primary hand, you can swap your primary
weapon to your off hand and make attacks using that
weapon in your off hand.

[Kaiyanwang]

Weapon Training is something the Fighter earns every few levels, at 5, 9, 13 & 17. Each time he receives the class feature, he can select one group of weapons from a list of groups. ie: Axes, Heavy blades, Light blades, Bows, Double, Flails, Hammers, Pole Arms, Close, Monk, Spears, Thrown, Crossbows.

Thanks.

Another thing: it's me, or the (combat) feats limitation is unnecessary and stupid? Or maybe I didn't undertand well.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Thanks.

Another thing: it's me, or the (combat) feats limitation is unnecessary and stupid? Or maybe I didn't undertand well.

It is, and it's part of the Pathfinder syndrome: they're trying to fix D&D 3.5, but they give spellcasters more powers along with everyone else, and then pile on limitations on the few good existing non-caster options (like Power Attack, which apparently now sucks seriously, when in standard 3.5 it is the only thing that makes Fighters any good at anything).

[Kaiyanwang]

It is, and it's part of the Pathfinder syndrome: they're trying to fix D&D 3.5, but they give spellcasters more powers along with everyone else, and then pile on limitations on the few good existing non-caster options (like Power Attack, which apparently now sucks seriously, when in standard 3.5 it is the only thing that makes Fighters any good at anything).

Time to facepalm.

[Attilargh]

The problem with Overhand Chop is it's also a [Combat] feat. That means you can't use both in the same round -_-.

I can't quite find this rule, could someone point where I should look?

[Monation]

I can't quite find this rule, could someone point where I should look?

Taken from Pathfinder RPG Beta Playtest PDF:

Combat Feats
Combat feats represent various maneuvers and tricks that
characters can attempt to perform in combat. Although
these feats can be utilized any number of times per day,
you cannot utilize more than one combat feat in any
given round.
Unlike most feats, the benef its from combat feats are
not always active. Unless stated otherwise, you must
choose to use a combat feat before any attack rolls are
made and its effects last until the beginning of your
next turn.
Combat feats can be chosen as fighter bonus feats.

[Edit:] From what I've seen in playtest reports and my own playtesting...
Well yeah, Power Attack does suck the big one now
The lead designer is trying to find some way to bring back Power Attack to what it was before, without leaving it open to exploits like 'Truestrike + Power Attack' or insane Leap Attack builds. They are trying to have it scale by level. They are trying to do the same with Combat Expertiese if I'm not mistaken.

[Attilargh]

I get it's in the .pdf. Where there?

[Reinboom]

I am unable to locate this block of text as well.
In the pathfinder BETA I just downloaded from the website, doing a search with acrobat has 'combat feats' only come up four times.
Once in the fighter description.
Once as the actual header to this block of text:

Combat Feats
Any feat designated as a combat feat can be selected as a
fighter’s bonus feat. This designation does not restrict
characters of other classes from selecting these feats,
assuming
that they meet the prerequisites.

Once in how to run monsters/differences between 3.5 and pathfinder.
And once on the back of the book cover.

[Starbuck_II]

The problem with Overhand Chop is it's also a [Combat] feat. That means you can't use both in the same round -_-.

No, the problem with overhand chop is it is a standard action to use: meaning you can't charge. So no Leap Attack.
Page 93 lists the feat.

Backswing will work because Charges are full attack actions. But then you've wasted 1 feat just to Charge and Power Attack with Overhand Chop.

[Tsotha-lanti]

exploits like 'Truestrike + Power Attack'

How's that an exploit, anyway? Use a spell to probably certainly hit and add BAB (or twice BAB) to damage, once? There's no exploit, unless some insane DM allows an at-will or use-activated true strike item.

Backswing will work because Charges are full attack actions. But then you've wasted 1 feat just to Charge and Power Attack with Overhand Chop.

I don't know anything about Backswing or the specific wording, but a charge is a full action, not a full attack.

[Starbuck_II]

I don't know anything about Backswing or the specific wording, but a charge is a full action, not a full attack.

Really, that means you can't backswing/chop with a charge ever.

Really, they made Leap Attack a non-issue (granted it isn't Paizo core).

PA combos are much weaker. Little hope for them.

I do think that Overhand chop/Backswing would be good for a full attack in general though.

[MrBojangles]

Just so ya know, the "Combat" designation means that fighters can take them as bonus feats. The whole "one per round" thing is from the Alpha playtest and was nixed fairly quickly. It was just the designers tossing out ideas and seeing what people thought.

[grummul]

Just a thought for your build which has already been mentioned is full attack. You need to find a way to ensure your mob isn't bookin it as soon as they see you coming. I'm currently working on a fighter that I went 2 handed greatsword build with combat expertise, Imp trip, greater trip vital strike. The idea is to charge, offset the ac negative by sacking the +2 I gain from the charge. Use the 1 attack I'm granted to perform combat maneuver trip, get my aoo from greater trip and apply vital strike to it. When the baddy tries to get up, aoo and combat maneuver him again with trip. I used vital strike once already so hit him once more on his way down. On my turn full attack him on the ground.

The only reason I didn't do TWF is due to the heavy feat investment needed. Not sure if you can work in trip into your build but I would reco it. Other downside is you need at least a 14 dex. Which for twf it isn't an issue.

[Mongoose87]

Anyone else smell a lich?

[Monation]

Seriously Grummul, this build isn't even possible anymore.
Weapon Swap was taken out before the game was released a LONG time ago.