Eldricht Knight question

[powerdemon]

Does it seem balanced to you guys to have the option of replacing the bonus feat for a 1st level Eldricht Knight with spell progression?

Normally their first level class feature is a bonus feat from the fighter bonus feat list, and every level thereafter they have spell progression from their arcane caster class. I want to get spell progression instead and my DM OKed it, but I wanted to know if you guys think it is balanced.

[Vexxation]

Does it seem balanced to you guys to have the option of replacing the bonus feat for a 1st level Eldricht Knight with spell progression?

Normally their first level class feature is a bonus feat from the fighter bonus feat list, and every level thereafter they have spell progression from their arcane caster class. I want to get spell progression instead and my DM OKed it, but I wanted to know if you guys think it is balanced.

Well, other than feat requirements, the loss of a single caster level is the only real downside to Eldritch Knight. I wouldn't allow it, were I DM, but I wouldn't call it imbalanced. It's just a tiny bit too good for what you give up.

[powerdemon]

Thank you, all input is appreciated.

[Aneantir]

Increased hit dice, full BAB, AND a good Fort save at the cost of a one level fighter/barbarian/other martial class dip? I would say thats a good chunk too good. I wouldn't allow it in my game.

[ChaosDefender24]

Thanks to abjurant champion, no.

[powerdemon]

Methinks I'll just forget about taking levels in this class. It does seem to overpowered now that I look at it again. I am playing with two other players that have never played before and I don't want to overshadow them.

Thanks for the input everyone.

[Devils_Advocate]

Well, other than feat requirements, the loss of a single caster level is the only real downside to Eldritch Knight. I wouldn't allow it, were I DM, but I wouldn't call it imbalanced. It's just a tiny bit too good for what you give up.

Nah, you have to consider prerequisites and opportunity costs when evaluating a PrC. Normally, you're already behind one level in your casting class, because you had to blow a level on a class that grants proficiency with all martial weapons. And while you're leveling in EK, you're not leveling in some other prestige class. There are far more powerful options out there. Of course, it's down to the DM which of them are allowed...

Really, it depends on the power level of the campaign and what else is allowed. Single-classed core-only Wizard is itself powerful enough to warrant banning or nerfing.

If you want to avoid stepping on anyone's toes, it's probably best to go straight Wiz or Sorc and let others handle the "hitting things until they die" end of things. And remember the golden rule of wizardry: Your job is to do the things that the party needs to have done, but that no one else can do. The more directly you concentrate on this job, the less likely you are to render anyone else redundant or let your team down.

[valadil]

3 years ago I would have deemed it too powerful, but with duskblade and abjurant champ out there your EK mod seems fine.

[Eldariel]

Really, I wouldn't do it just because that would make EK even more boring than it is right now (it has effectively no class features). Adding that last level of casting, and giving EK some class features related to magical swordsmanship would be interesting though.

[Draken]

You want to hear what I never understood about the Eldritch Knight?

Why the heck it doesn't give you the ability to cast in SOME armor? All other arcane caster/warrior prestige classes do it somehow (Spellsword, Bladesinger, ok, Abjurant Champion doesn't, but it improves your Mage Armor and Shield spells). So why not it?

[AmberVael]

You want to hear what I never understood about the Eldritch Knight?

Why the heck it doesn't give you the ability to cast in SOME armor? All other arcane caster/warrior prestige classes do it somehow (Spellsword, Bladesinger, ok, Abjurant Champion doesn't, but it improves your Mage Armor and Shield spells). So why not it?

It's a core PrC. Initially, WotC had this bizarre idea that it was terrible for arcane casters to be able to cast while wearing armor (something that didn't seem to apply to divine casters), and so they never made a way for that ability to work until they started testing it later.

[Vexxation]

You want to hear what I never understood about the Eldritch Knight?

Why the heck it doesn't give you the ability to cast in SOME armor? All other arcane caster/warrior prestige classes do it somehow (Spellsword, Bladesinger, ok, Abjurant Champion doesn't, but it improves your Mage Armor and Shield spells). So why not it?

I like the idea of using for a Gish that uses only spells that lack Somatic components. Displacement, for example. True Strike, Blur, Blindness/Deafness, Suggestion, Teleport... There's quite a few, even just in Core that are useful to a battlemage. Prebuff for Shield, Stoneskin, and the like, then rush into battle in Mithril Full Plate with a Greataxe.

Oh, no, having trouble sneaking? Deafen that sleeping guard so he won't hear the clanging of your armor.

[Draken]

It's a core PrC. Initially, WotC had this bizarre idea that it was terrible for arcane casters to be able to cast while wearing armor (something that didn't seem to apply to divine casters), and so they never made a way for that ability to work until they started testing it later.

3.5 Core bards can cast in light armor Vael.

[ChaosDefender24]

You want to hear what I never understood about the Eldritch Knight?

Why the heck it doesn't give you the ability to cast in SOME armor? All other arcane caster/warrior prestige classes do it somehow (Spellsword, Bladesinger, ok, Abjurant Champion doesn't, but it improves your Mage Armor and Shield spells). So why not it?

Because of Polymorph.

[AmberVael]

3.5 Core bards can cast in light armor Vael.

Eh, they're slightly different. They break a lot of the original rules for arcane casters. They can cast healing spells, they can wear armor, they have the ability to actually fight in melee...

[Draken]

Because of Polymorph.

The druid proves Wizards actually didn't care a lot for polymorph.

And yea, I guess bards break the general, original, arcane caster mold. But then, the arcane casters that followed did it as well. One way or another.

[Zeful]

You want to hear what I never understood about the Eldritch Knight?

Why the heck it doesn't give you the ability to cast in SOME armor? All other arcane caster/warrior prestige classes do it somehow (Spellsword, Bladesinger, ok, Abjurant Champion doesn't, but it improves your Mage Armor and Shield spells). So why not it?

Because the game was designed with the wizard acting as an Evoker. Picking mostly Direct Damage spells, with Utility to Flavor. With that in mind. Wizards become squishy. Putting decent armor on them makes them less squishy, which under the above design philosophy is a bad thing.

[AmberVael]

And yea, I guess bards break the general, original, arcane caster mold. But then, the arcane casters that followed did it as well. One way or another.

They started it in Complete Warrior. Notice how they did it there? Hexblade and Spellsword, both of which are considered fairly poor. Later on, their work with it got better (Duskblade, Beguiler, etc).

[BRC]

They started it in Complete Arcane. Notice how they did it there? Hexblade and Spellsword, both of which are considered fairly poor. Later on, their work with it got better (Duskblade, Beguiler, etc).

It was because they wanted the archtypical wizard in robes shooting lightning and fire everywhere. If things didnt' fit into that archtype, no matter how powerful they were (see cleric), WoTC didn't care what they wore.

[Roderick_BR]

Actually they started it in the 3.0 Tome & Blood book. There's a class called Spellsword, that gives you half spellcasting progression (and thus, is considered "bad" in these boards), but, aside from better BAB and HD, it gave you some interesting class abilities, like ignore some spell failure from wearing armor, and the ability to store touch spells in your chosen weapon, to unleash them during attacks. Much more flavourful and interesting than EK.

[AmberVael]

Actually they started it in the 3.0 Tome & Blood book. There's a class called Spellsword, that gives you half spellcasting progression (and thus, is considered "bad" in these boards), but, aside from better BAB and HD, it gave you some interesting class abilities, like ignore some spell failure from wearing armor, and the ability to store touch spells in your chosen weapon, to unleash them during attacks. Much more flavourful and interesting than EK.

>.>
Yes, Spellsword. The one they re-tailored and put into Complete Warrior (I said complete arcane earlier, not sure why. )

[only1doug]

You want to hear what I never understood about the Eldritch Knight?

Why the heck it doesn't give you the ability to cast in SOME armor? All other arcane caster/warrior prestige classes do it somehow (Spellsword, Bladesinger, ok, Abjurant Champion doesn't, but it improves your Mage Armor and Shield spells). So why not it?

Fixed that for you.

Abjurant champion only improves abjuration based armour and shield spells which means it only improves shield (mage armour is a conjouration spell). (errata confirms this).

Abjurant champion levels would improve ectoplasmic armour (armour vs incorporeal touch attacks)