Gestalt Build Challenge Returns XII: The Maligned

[dspeyer]

"You'd better run for cover when the pup grows up!"
--Gavroche, Les Miserable

RETURN OF THE GESTALT BUILD CHALLENGE XII: THE MALIGNED

There are some classes that are rarely mentioned here except with derision: fighter, bard, monk, samurai, truenamer, expert, commoner.... The challenge here is to build something effective using act least thirty levels of such classes. Level adjust or hit dice for particularly mocked creatures are also acceptable.

Loosely inspired by BobVosh.

"Gestalt Build Challenge" General Rules

We'll follow Duke of URL's old rules plus with a few minor changes.

For numeric attributes with progressions (such as BAB and saves) first determine at each level which progression the attribute follows, then count how many levels of each progression you have, then index into the progressions, then add them together. This means that a fighter 1 / sorceror 19 // wizard 20 has 1 level of good BAB and 19 of bad, giving +1 and +9 respectively for a total BAB of +10. Similarly, a character with 20 different marshal classes gets a base fort save of +12, not +40. It's not addressed in the gestalt or multiclassing rules, but this tends to make the most reasonable builds.

Disregard the clause about multiclassing penalties. We could never figure out how to apply it anyway.

If you are using multiple templates, you may only do so in a way which makes sense with what the template means. For example, you may only use one template that represents one parent being of a different race unless your base race is one where more-than-two parent reproduction is normal.

Well known cheese (pun-pun, omnificer, etc.) is banned.

Here are Duke of URL's old rules, for those who have forgotten them. Spoilered because they're long

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Unless otherwise specified in the specific challenge, the following rules and guidelines are always in effect:

• Gestalt builds; 28-point buy; use any WOTC 3.5 product (including Dragon magazine) except where noted (only 3.0 products with an official upgrade to 3.5 are allowed)
• Make all builds to ECL 20. However, indicate the minimum ECL the build is playable at (the level at which all LA and/or racial HD, if applicable, are accounted for) and label any level that indicates a "power break" where the build has a significant jump in power level. Provide a detailed description of how the build operates.
• Any race with a listed level adjustment is allowed (no racial progressions from Savage Species, please). LA and HD each apply to one side of the gestalt; you may include LA and HD on the same side as each other, or on other sides. No LA buyoff. LA is applied before racial HD, which must be paid off before class levels on that side. Examples: LA X / RHD Y / class Z / ... // class A / ... -OR- LA X / class Y / ... // RHD A / class B / ...
• Multiclass at will, but see "voting".
• Up to two flaws are allowed, but see "voting".
• Templates are allowed, but see "voting".
• Voting: Upon the close of entries for each challenge, members of the forum may vote in-thread for the build that best represents the goals set out by the challenge. The voting criteria should consist of:
  • Functionality: How well does the build do in its primary role as specified in the challenge?
  • Weaknesses: Does the build have any glaring weaknesses that can be exploited?
  • Playability: How much of the 1-20 level range can the build be played at and be effective?
  • Creativity: Clever use of races, classes, and/or feats that may not be "typical" choices
  • Cheese: Minimizing the number of cheese points
    • Using flaws (1 point each)
    • Ignoring mutliclassing penalties -- some DMs actually do enforce this in gestalt (1 point each)
    • Single-level dips that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point each)
    • Templates that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point per +1 LA)
    • Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each)
    • Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each)
    • Over-dependence on items (1 point per indispensable item)
    • Over-dependence on Diplomacy or Use Magic Device skills (1,000,000 points each)

[monty]

Is paladin an option? Or the variants, for that matter.

[jcsw]

I'd suggest you take bard off the list. Bard is (considered) an awesome class.

What about PrCs which are clearly focused on one of those classes? Like most of the Monk prestige classes?

[The Glyphstone]

I'm tempted to make a Monk/Drunken Master//Fighter/Kensai. Possibly Warforged - he won't be dominating in combat, but he'll have so much self-contained awesome in a single package that it'll be ridiculous.

It'll require Drunken Master (and other Monk PrCs) to be considered as extensions of Monk itself, but it'll still be awesometastic.

Rocket Punches! Swigging beer and BREATHING FIRE!

[dspeyer]

Is paladin an option? Or the variants, for that matter.

It seems to me that paladin's reputation is that the beginning is quite powerful, but it doesn't keep up. I'd say paladin levels 6-20 count (yes, this means spending half your non-maligned levels on early paladin). Similarly, swashbuckler levels 4-20 count.

[Talic]

I'm thinking Soulknife 20 // Fighter 10/PrC 10. I think I can pull something good off.

Either that, or something using bugbear, lol.

EDIT: Or maybe monk 20 // Fighter 10/PRC 10

[monty]

Dragon disciple? If so, I'm just about done with mine.

[dspeyer]

It'll require Drunken Master (and other Monk PrCs) to be considered as extensions of Monk itself, but it'll still be awesometastic.

Rocket Punches! Swigging beer and BREATHING FIRE!

I was going to say that prestige classes have to be considered separately, since mostly they aren't built around a single base class (and why not use bard to set up ur-priest?). However, you win by sheer power of awesome.

Just explain in the entry why you consider the PrC to be an extension of the maligned class.

[dspeyer]

Dragon disciple? If so, I'm just about done with mine.

Dragon Disciple is definitely in.

[monty]

All right. Let's see what I can do with this.

Drow Bard 15 / Invisible Blade 5 // LA 2 / Paladin of Freedom 2 / Fighter 6 / Dragon Disciple 10
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 18

{table]Level | Class 1 | Class 2 | Feat(s)
1 | Bard 1 | LA 1 | Two-Weapon Fighting
2 | Bard 2 | LA 2
3 | Bard 3 | Paladin of Freedom 1 | Snowflake Wardance
4 | Bard 4 | Paladin of Freedom 2
5 | Bard 5 | Fighter 1 | Weapon Finesse
6 | Bard 6 | Dragon Disciple 1 | Weapon Focus (kukri)
7 | Bard 7 | Dragon Disciple 2
8 | Bard 8 | Dragon Disciple 3
9 | Bard 9 | Dragon Disciple 4 | Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10 | Bard 10 | Dragon Disciple 5
11 | Bard 11 | Dragon Disciple 6
12 | Bard 12 | Dragon Disciple 7 | Point-Blank Shot
13 | Bard 13 | Dragon Disciple 8
14 | Bard 14 | Dragon Disciple 9
15 | Bard 15 | Dragon Disciple 10 | Precise Shot
16 | Invisible Blade 1 | Fighter 2 | Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
17 | Invisible Blade 2 | Fighter 3
18 | Invisible Blade 3 | Fighter 4 | Dragon Breath, Combat Reflexes
19 | Invisible Blade 4 | Fighter 5
20 | Invisible Blade 5 | Fighter 6 | Double Hit[/table]
Level 20 numbers:
HP 10d12+8d10+2d6+40
BAB +17/+12/+7/+2
Saves: Fort +19 (+11) Ref +20 (+12) Will +14 (+10)

Mmm, charisma.

[dspeyer]

Drow Bard 15 / Invisible Blade 5 // LA 2 / Paladin of Freedom 2 / Fighter 6 / Dragon Disciple 10
...
BAB +19/+14/+9/+4

How do you get 19 BAB with 12 levels of 3/4BAB?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Rakshasa, Outsider 7/ Sorcerer 12/ Spellsword 1// LA +7/ Mindspy 5/ War Shaper 4/ Fighter 1/ Major Titan Bloodline 3

In Humanoid form he only loses his natural weapons, and gains all the War Shaper bonuses while wielding a weapon. Note that Bloodline benefits are due to taking levels in the bloodline class, therefore none of it is lost in another form. I would seriously consider playing something like this in a high-level gestalt game.

[Talic]

Biff, I fail to see how that uses 30 levels of suck.

Sorceror 12 > Considered very strong
Warshaper 4 > Sees much play in shapeshift builds

40 total levels - 16 = 24 levels of debatable suck. I'm not sure Rakshasa would qualify.

Mindspy/Fighter/spellsword, I'll give you.

Not seen titan bloodline.

[jcsw]

For reference: Here're some classes and prestige classes that are said to suck.

Monk
Fighter
Samurai
Truenamer
Wu Jen
Paladin 6-20
Swashbuckler 4-20
Shujenja
Soulknife
Wizard - Evoker (Although, you may not want to allow this...)

Commoner
Expert
Adept
Aristocrat

Dragon Disciple
Green Star Adept
Horizon Walker
Seeker of the Song
Alienist


Hmm... what about 1/2 casting progression PrCs?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Biff, I fail to see how that uses 30 levels of suck.

Sorceror 12 > Considered very strong
Warshaper 4 > Sees much play in shapeshift builds

40 total levels - 16 = 24 levels of debatable suck. I'm not sure Rakshasa would qualify.

Mindspy/Fighter/spellsword, I'll give you.

Not seen titan bloodline.

The Bloodlines are in UA/SRD. I'd think Sorcerer would qualify, since Rakshasa alone can qualify for most of the spellcasting prestige classes out there. I'd originally planned on using the Witch spell list (DMG 175), but it doesn't take any non-core spells into consideration. The original idea was to go Rakshasa Witch 13// Blackguard 3/ Geomancer 10, but then I remembered Mindspy and changed it all around.

[BobVosh]

For reference: Here're some classes and prestige classes that are said to suck
Wizard - Evoker (Although, you may not want to allow this...)

There is a difference between "sucking" and "just not as good as other options." Evokers can keep up and surpass quite a few dps classes. With range supposively equaling out the hp/ac difference.

[Project_Mayhem]

Monk
Fighter

to be fair, I think its Monk 2-20 and Fighter 3-20.

[Thurbane]

Well, according to this, the bottom 10 are:

Monk
Healer
Spellthief
Truenamer
Expert
Soulknife
Samurai
Warrior
Aristocrat
Commoner

[jcsw]

There is a difference between "sucking" and "just not as good as other options." Evokers can keep up and surpass quite a few dps classes. With range supposively equaling out the hp/ac difference.

By RAW the goal is to use thirty levels of classes which are almost always spoken about "with derision". I think evoker qualifies under that. :P

Anyways:

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Dragonborn Lesser Aasimar
Bard 17/Swiftblade 3//Fighter 2/Paladin 2/Monk 2/Marshal 1/Tattooed Monk 10/Fighter 2/Scout 1

Feats:
Dodge (Level 1)
Ascetic Knight (Level 3)
Ascetic Mage (Level 6)
Travel Devotion (Level 9)
Words of Creation (Level 12)
Dragonfire Inspiration (Level 15)
Song from the Heart (Level 18)
Snowflake Wardance
Endurance (Fighter 1)
Mobility (Fighter 2)
Zen Archery (Fighter 4)
Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (Marshal 1)
Spring Attack (Swiftblade 1)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk 1)
Improved Grapple (Monk 1)
Combat Reflexes (Monk 2)

Assumptions:
Tattooed Monk, as a PrC which is obviously an extension of Monk, counts as a sucky class.
You can "sheathe" your hands as a free action

Items of Note:
Vest of Legends
Badge of Valor
Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows
Slippers of Battle Dancing
Tome of Cha +5
Cloak of Cha +6

Cha = 18(Base)+2(Racial)+5(Level Increases)+5(Tome)+6(Cloak)=36(+13 Modifier)

Notable Features:
12 Levels of three good saves.
BAB: 16
Cha to:
AC (Monk)
Saves (Paladin)
Cha Checks (Marshal)
5/Day One Ability Score (Tattooed Monk, Bellflower Tattoo)
1/day Attack Rolls (Smite)
Attack Rolls (Snowflake Wardance)
Damage (Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows)
Attack AND Damage, when you move 10ft in that round (Slippers of Battledancing)
Haste Spells are quickened for free
Skirmish 1d6
Evasion
4 Unselected Tattooes
Near Full Bardic Progression:
-Inspire Courage +5 (+1, Badge of Valor and x2, Words of Creation)
-Dragonfire Inspiration
A bonus of 50+ to UMD.
As a side effect: Really high iaijutsu focus. Put in half a rank to get it trained, it *has* to come in useful sometime, right?

The character spends his first round buffing:
Move] Activate Bellflower Tattoo
Free] Haste
Free] Snowflake Wardance
Swift] Badge of Valor
Immediate] Inspirational Boost
Standard] Dragonfire Inspiration

[dspeyer]

Evoker is a derided specialty, but it's still a specialty of wizard, a highly respected class.

Rakshasas are known to be powerful creatures, their LA and HD do not count as maligned. If you have doubts, compare rakshasa hd//la to sorcerer//ranger.

Similarly, sorcerer is not widely maligned. It may be wizard's weaker cousin, but not that much weaker.

Soulknife and healer do count. I forgot about them earlier.

How did alienist get on that list? Isn't it a full-casting PrC with useful bonus abilities?

[monty]

How do you get 19 BAB with 12 levels of 3/4BAB?

Huh. You know, I always just assumed that Dragon Disciple was full BAB. What were they thinking when they designed that?

Anyway, I'll fix that now.

[dspeyer]

Pixie LA 4 / Warlock 3 / paladin of freedom 2 / sneak-attack fighter 11 // bard 20

Stats dex > cha > int

Your basic fly around invisibly and zap things for 8d6 build, demonstrating just how little this build needs to work. It's two points short of full BAB, and has 6+int skills until the last level. There's decent illusionism to spread confusion with. For defense, there's pixie AC powers and divine grace on saves.

[jcsw]

How did alienist get on that list? Isn't it a full-casting PrC with useful bonus abilities?

Well I put it there because of all the people saying "it's a trap!"

[dspeyer]

Huh. You know, I always just assumed that Dragon Disciple was full BAB. What were they thinking when they designed that?

That's a big part of why it's so maligned. With full BAB, it would make sense as a tank class. As it is, it doesn't really fit anywhere.

[KevLar]

@jcsw:
Nice. I tend to make characters who add their Charisma to everything too, lately. :)

A question: where are the Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows and the Vest of Legends?

[jcsw]

@jcsw:
Nice. I tend to make characters who add their Charisma to everything too, lately. :)

A question: where are the Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows and the Vest of Legends?

Gauntlets are in Dragon 314 adds Cha Fire damage to attacks, Vest is in DMG II, you count as a bard 5 levels higher for stuff like inspire courage.

[KevLar]

Thanks.

[mangosta71]

20 commoner//20 aristocrat. It takes two housecats to bring him down.

But in seriousness, I need to look up the reqs for Pyrokineticist. It can add a fair bit to a Soulknife. Plus, the ability to look at a guy and make him explode is awesome. So I'll be looking at a mix of 30 levels in fighter and soulknife, with full Pyro. Details after I get home from work and can look through my books.

[The Glyphstone]

Uncertainty - Taking PrC's on both sides of the gestalt is cheese points, but is that 1 point total or one per level? Example, is Drunken Master 10/Kensai 10 worth 1 cheese point or 10?

[Emperor Tippy]

Barbarian 1/Fighter 18/Warblade 1// Non Psionic Thri-keen 3/ Monk 12/ Kensai 3/Warblade 1/Kensai 1

Hello massive attack routine. If Kensai or Tri-keen counts as a maligned then drop a level of Monk and replace it with a level of Swordsage. If an Amulet of Natural attacks can be enchanted to get me Speed then Kensai will be replaced with Blood Claw Master 3.