Ritual analysis (4e)

[Kurald Galain]

In a recent thread, it was pointed out again that nearly all of the rituals printed so far are, in practice, nigh useless. In essence, rituals are the new monks: they look very nice on paper, but when used in play they don't work the way you'd think they would.

It seems that most rituals suffer from one or more (and in several cases, all) of the following problems:
(A) too long a casting time
(B) too expensive
(C) too weak or meaningless an effect
There are a handful of exceptions; for instance, Tenser's Floating Disk is useful at times, and Raise Dead can be a necessity.

So anyway, what I'd like to have some opinions on, is this:
(1) Supposing all rituals took one standard action to cast. Would that make them useful or overpowered? Or would problems B and C still make most of them impractical?
(2) Supposing all rituals required no reagents to cast (but still cost money to learn, as normal, and excepting item-creation rituals), would that make them useful or overpowered? Or would problems A and C still make most of them impractical?

[Morty]

If all rituals took standard action to cast, some of them might become useful, other would get overpowered- such as Raise Dead. As for the reagents, I'm not sure. Again, some rituals would be fine as freebies, others would be overpowered without cost, like teleportation.
In general, the whole ritual section seems strangely "tacked on" to me. It's as if they were added to the game when it was already almost finished and they look odd in comparision to the rest. It's probably just me.

[tyfon]

- Rituals are there because D&D needs Raise Dead
- Rituals are there because many players would complain "What happened to gentle repose". Get rituals, You fools - WotC says
- Rituals are there to patch system. If You need effect and there is no power for that - it is ritual.
- Rituals are there because powers are supposed to be all about same usefull, and are mostly combat oriented. Player that would have to take "Commune" would complain :"They et kickass attacks and I have to take that stuff?". It's all about balance.
...


- Rituals seem really to be there just for sake rewriting old spells that players remember. Here, end of book, ritual section whatever...

- Casting rituals for just money is incredibly anticlimatic idea.

[Inyssius Tor]

Now, that would be an interesting idea. Ignoring the obvious and easily-houseruled "it makes death easier to recover from than unconsciousness" thing (and I restrict Raise Dead anyway):

From Ritually Speaking, Banish Vermin would permanently, easily, and instantly make parties above level 1 immune to [Swarm] enemies; level 2 casters get Create Magic Bonfire--deals fire damage as normal, takes up one square; and everyone above level 4 can just delay any afflictions they have indefinitely.

From the Player's Handbook, everyone can consult either Hand of Fate or Mystic Sages all the time. After level 12, casters can walk through walls. After level 6, everyone can discern lies. Other than that, it doesn't really seem too bad.

I think more work than just those two houserules would be needed.

[Starsinger]

Now, that would be an interesting idea. Ignoring the obvious and easily-houseruled "it makes death easier to recover from than unconsciousness" thing (and I restrict Raise Dead anyway):

From Ritually Speaking, Banish Vermin would permanently, easily, and instantly make parties above level 1 immune to [Swarm] enemies; level 2 casters get Create Magic Bonfire--deals fire damage as normal, takes up one square; and everyone above level 4 can just delay any afflictions they have indefinitely.

From the Player's Handbook, everyone can consult either Hand of Fate or Mystic Sages all the time. After level 12, casters can walk through walls. After level 6, everyone can discern lies. Other than that, it doesn't really seem too bad.

I think more work than just those two houserules would be needed.

So... 3rd edition?

[Oracle_Hunter]

OK, a summary of what I've said in the other thread:

(1) 10 minutes is not that long a time, particularly since few of these rituals are generally applicable in combat, and those that are have long durations.

Spoiler

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All Illusions have a 24 hour duration, Water Breathing lasts for at least an hour, as does Water Walk.

Hand of Fate is not something you'd cast during combat, but can be very helpful for checking your plan before an assault. Mending is good for general repair, and for cleaning up after a breaking & entering. Silence allows you to conduct negotiations in perfect secrecy.

Most rituals fall into one or the other category. Outside of combat, 10 minutes is an inconvenience at worst. Inside of combat, it could be fatal, but pretty much any "combat ritual" has a long enough duration that you cast it beforehand. Planning is necessary to use rituals well, but not Batman-level planning.

(2) The gold cost can be burdensome, but it can be solved by the DM including extra treasure in the form of reagents.

Spoiler

Show

A reasonable objection is that adventurers are notoriously stingy with their treasure, and are unlikely to expend it for the "weak" ritual effects. However, if the DM starts including jars of Residuum or other reagents among the treasure the PCs find, this problem should be largely resolved. Yes, the PCs might spend it all on making magic items instead, but if that happens you just turn off the spigot. Resale worries can be dealt with by not including Magic Marts in your towns.

[Yakk]

The gold costs of rituals are high at the level you get them. At that level, they are flashy effects.

By 5 levels later, they are getting significantly cheaper.

By 15 levels later, they are petty cash.

[Saph]

(1) 10 minutes is not that long a time, particularly since few of these rituals are generally applicable in combat, and those that are have long durations.

It might not be a huge length of time, but it's an inconvenience, and it means the other 4-5 players at the table have to sit around waiting for you to finish. And if any monsters are lurking, 10 minutes is a huge length of time, and a potentially deadly one.

90% of the time it's just annoying, and 10% of the time it's deadly - and having to pay for the privilege is just the icing on the cake. As I said, I honestly think that the 4e designers were saying "We really hate all these utility spells that players used effectively in 3.5. We want you to be able to bring back the dead and a few more things, so we'll make that so cheap you can't not take it, but as for everything else, we're going to try and make them as impractical as we can to encourage you not to use them."

Basically, they're just badly designed. I think some combination of the time-reduce and gold-reduce ideas would be good - maybe cut the casting time of most of them to 1 minute, and reduce the cost to a fraction of what it is now. (Obviously this wouldn't apply to the already-ridiculously-good ones like Raise Dead.)

- Saph

[overduegalaxy]

One of my 4e DMs switched the "minutes" to "rounds" for casting times. Rituals did get used more often than my other 4e game, but that also probably had to do with having a wizard and two clerics in that party.

[Eorran]

I think of Rituals the same way I think of Skill Challenges: good concept, shaky implementation.

Rituals are a great way to include magic into a campaign without it having to appear on a spell list somewhere. Ritual magic is extremely flexible by nature, and PCs won't automatically expect to be able to duplicate the effects of a ritual. It's great for plot-related events.

The actual rituals in the PHB have varying levels of goodness, and may require modification to be effective. I'm against standard-action casting for most, but perhaps 1 minute casting times for some of the simpler ones. That means the ritual could be used in a combat situation, but it's not recommended. Ritual costs may need to be adjusted as well.

On the other hand, some rituals can supply a creative player with a lot of options. I have a player whose wizard is building himself a hovertank out of tenser's floating disk and a customized metal top. It's not game-breaking yet, and he's having a lot of fun with the idea of riding into battle on his armored disk, with little slots for vision and pointing his wand at enemies.

[tyfon]

Why do We need to put all rituals on the same shelf? Some magic requires full moon, 10 acolytes and full night of chanting, others can be peformed just by staring at the candle and cutting rune on your palm.

We are not obligated to fixed duration !

[Oracle_Hunter]

It might not be a huge length of time, but it's an inconvenience, and it means the other 4-5 players at the table have to sit around waiting for you to finish. And if any monsters are lurking, 10 minutes is a huge length of time, and a potentially deadly one.

Wait, the player doesn't need to chant 10 minutes. If nothing else is going to happen, the exchange should go like this:
Caster: "I cast Water Breathing on the party"
DM: "OK, that takes 10 minutes. Anyone want to do anything?"
Everyone: "No"
DM: "Fine. 10 minutes pass, and everyone has Water Breathing for the next 4 hours."

This is game time. It takes very little RL time, so none of the players are going to get bored in the next 30 seconds (I hope!).

And if something does happen:
DM: "Fine. 5 minutes into the ritual, 10 scrags burst out of the water, surprising everyone." *much rolling* "Caster, it's your turn. Want to finish the Ritual?"
Caster: "Hell no! I cast Magic Missile!"

Since an interrupted ritual costs no ritual components (PHB 299), there is very little lost.

[Saph]

Wait, the player doesn't need to chant 10 minutes.

It's roleplaying. In our groups, if one player says he starts doing something that'll take 10 minutes, there'll be at least one player whose character is going to wander off to do something else in the meantime. And there's no way the characters are going to want to stop for ten minutes just so the wizard can get his clothes clean.

In 4e, one player casts Water Breathing, and everyone has to stand around for 10 minutes while he finishes. In 3.5, one player casts Water Breathing, and it's over in six seconds. The 3.5 way is better.

- Saph

[Oracle_Hunter]

It's roleplaying. In our groups, if one player says he starts doing something that'll take 10 minutes, there'll be at least one player whose character is going to wander off to do something else in the meantime. And there's no way the characters are going to want to stop for ten minutes just so the wizard can get his clothes clean.

In 4e, one player casts Water Breathing, and everyone has to stand around for 10 minutes while he finishes. In 3.5, one player casts Water Breathing, and it's over in six seconds. The 3.5 way is better.

- Saph

Your characters can't sit in one place for 10 minutes? Really?

Well, I'll have to say that your experience is different from mine then. Even when roleplaying, I've found only the most hyperactive of adventurers are unable to wait 10 minutes for a reward.

Hell, how do they handle night watches? Or when the Rogue needs to pick a lock, or disarm a trap?

[Yukitsu]

3.5ers spend a standard action to use rope trick then fall asleep without a watch. In 4E, they get the Eladrin to do it.

3.5ers either knock down the door, or the wizard or rogue uses a wand of knock. 4E, they have to pick it, if they want to be quick about it. 3.5ers send in expendable summoned mooks to "disable" traps, while in 4E, you usually need to actually disarm them. Unless you have a full party of eladrin/warlocks.

[Totally Guy]

Rituals are also good for the DM. The villain can have a lot of interesting ways to use rituals.

So far in my game the villians have used...

Hand of Fate to trick the party into doing his dirtywork for him.
Detect Object to locate an orb the mayor carried.
Wizard's sight to frame the mayor.
Linked Portal... far too many times.
Mending to seal a vault with the adventurers inside. This failed.
Eye of warding was used by an antagonist that was actually good.
Landslide was used off-camera by a villain to seal a valley.
Arcane lock was used as a warning beacon to the villain's door.
Magic mouth was used to taunt the adventurers.
Phantom steed was used to escape.
Animal messenger has been used off-camera to tell the sahuagins to mobilise.
Sending was used by a villain to propose a sincere truce.

If I keep this up I think I'll have my players wanting to use them at higher levels.

[KKL]

In 3.5, one player casts Water Breathing, and it's over in six seconds. The 3.5 way is better.

- Saph

Of course, the 3.5 way lead to WIzards being able to do everything as a standard action.

I much prefer the 4e way, even id the rituals take a long ass time. Because the Wizard then didn't have the solution to everything at the tip of their fingers.

[Saph]

Handle it? :P

But seriously, it's not that you can't use 4e Rituals. You can. It's just that it's bad design. It doesn't add anything to the game that if I play 4e I have to spend 100x as long to cast Water Breathing and pay a load of money as well.

It's not that 4e rituals are unusable - it's that they could be much, much better. That's the point.

- Saph

[KKL]

Handle it? :P

But seriously, it's not that you can't use 4e Rituals. You can. It's just that it's bad design. It doesn't add anything to the game that if I play 4e I have to spend 100x as long to cast Water Breathing and pay a load of money as well.

It's not that 4e rituals are unusable - it's that they could be much, much better. That's the point.

- Saph

How is it bad design to not have the Wizard be able to take care of everything as a standard action and virtually cost-free? It sounds to me like you just want the 4e wizards to be as equally broken as the 3.5e wizard in terms of disturbing versitility.

[Morty]

How is it bad design to not have the Wizard be able to take care of everything as a standard action and virtually cost-free? It sounds to me like you just want the 4e wizards to be as equally broken as the 3.5e wizard in terms of disturbing versitility.

Except in 3ed wizard didn't have everything by a standard action until very high levels due to limitation in spell slots. Unless he used scrolls and wands which, guess what, isn't costless.

[Saph]

How is it bad design to not have the Wizard be able to take care of everything as a standard action and virtually cost-free?

Player options that are next to useless are bad design. The majority of the rituals in the Rituals chapter of the PHB are next to useless. Hence, bad design.

I think a major reason for it is overreaction along the lines that you're demonstrating. Since many spells in 3.5 were so effective, they went to the opposite extreme in 4e and made them useless in all but situations so specific that they'll virtually never come up.

- Saph

[Blackfang108]

I have a player whose wizard is building himself a hovertank out of tenser's floating disk and a customized metal top. It's not game-breaking yet, and he's having a lot of fun with the idea of riding into battle on his armored disk, with little slots for vision and pointing his wand at enemies.

I am so doing this if I ever play a wizard.

[KKL]

Player options that are next to useless are bad design. The majority of the rituals in the Rituals chapter of the PHB are next to useless. Hence, bad design.

I think a major reason for it is overreaction along the lines that you're demonstrating. Since many spells in 3.5 were so effective, they went to the opposite extreme in 4e and made them useless in all but situations so specific that they'll virtually never come up.

- Saph

They take a long time, yes. They're useless? Not at all. You can't just load up on utility spells and go firing them off willy nilly like some sort of idiot. Rituals in 4e need foresight, as opposed to a trigger finger and the appropriate scroll/wand/spell on hand.

[Yakk]

Handle it? :P

But seriously, it's not that you can't use 4e Rituals. You can. It's just that it's bad design. It doesn't add anything to the game that if I play 4e I have to spend 100x as long to cast Water Breathing and pay a load of money as well.

It does. Because being able to breathe water takes preparation, drowning is a threat that cannot be nullified in a single round with a single action.

On the other hand, if there is a plot that involves staying under water for an extended period of time, the ritual allows for it to work. It requires that the party arrange for the time to cast the ritual -- which means that they need a safe spot for a period of time after they make the decision.

The cost is high when you get it initially -- it is new and shiny -- but by the next tier, it is dirt cheap.

And yes, players can choose to run off and do things while someone else works on a ritual or other magic. It isn't very polite to the the other players at the table.

[TwystidMynd]

In our groups, if one player says he starts doing something that'll take 10 minutes, there'll be at least one player whose character is going to wander off to do something else in the meantime.

Your characters can't sit in one place for 10 minutes? Really?

Characters? I have trouble getting my players to sit in one place for 10 minutes!
I mean, sure we all go to class regularly and sit there for an hour...
And sure, we meet weekly and sit together for hours on end talking about slayind dragons...
And sure, we take hour-long breaks during the week to sit around the table and talk to each other while we eat...
And sure...

Wait a second.

Most of my life is composed of sitting around with my friends for long periods of time! Come to think of it, that's probably what the PCs do for those long stretches of time where we don't explicitly state what they're doing. They're probably snacking, talking, reading, bio-ing, or any variety of mundane non-heroic things that normal people do. Not every character has wanderlust or ADD... and those that do probably get killed off pretty quickly, when they interrupt the DM's Villian's Final Awesome Speech and get squished by rocks.

[FoE]

It might not be a huge length of time, but it's an inconvenience, and it means the other 4-5 players at the table have to sit around waiting for you to finish.

What in the name of all the gods are you talking about? Saph, you don't wait for rituals to finish in real-time, do you?

I agree with Glug. Rituals are great for the DM, not just the players. The only Ritual I think should be shortened is Comprehend Languages, since the duration of the ritual makes it hard to prepare ahead of time for meeting with lizard men, or whatever you need it for.

[Artanis]

I'm looking at the rituals in the PHB and FRPG, and there's nothing that seems like it can only ever be useful in combat ever. Most only seem particularly useful out-of-combat. Taking a little bit of time to cast when you have a lot of time to spare doesn't exactly seem crippling to me.

As for characters wandering off in ten minutes, that only matters if the character gets into trouble. And if somebody can't avoid getting into trouble for the amount of time it takes to make and eat a PB&J sandwich, then he won't survive very long in a dungeon:

"We should check this room for traps. Ten minutes should be enough time."
"Screw that, I get bored five minutes in and pull the big lever that's labeled 'Kill Everybody In The Room'."
"..."

[Saph]

It does. Because being able to breathe water takes preparation, drowning is a threat that cannot be nullified in a single round with a single action.

If I've taken the time to prepare a Water Breathing spell one way or another, why shouldn't I be able to use it in a single round? The whole "Your character isn't allowed to be this competent" theme that I see coming up in these discussions irks me a bit.

Yes, I can live with the clunky 4e rituals, and yes, I can figure out ways to make them sort-of-effective-but-not-really (because with the same amount of effort you can usually do the job better another way). But what's the point?

- Saph

[DiscipleofBob]

I personally like the idea of casters using rituals ahead of time, but storing them in scrolls or the like. So they use the 10 minute casting time and regeants, but can use their rituals as needed. The only thing needed to add is some sort of expiration period on the ritual "scrolls" or some element so they don't accumulate into ridiculousness.

Wait, the player doesn't need to chant 10 minutes. If nothing else is going to happen, the exchange should go like this:
Caster: "I cast Water Breathing on the party"
DM: "OK, that takes 10 minutes. Anyone want to do anything?"
Everyone: "No"
DM: "Fine. 10 minutes pass, and everyone has Water Breathing for the next 4 hours."

This is game time. It takes very little RL time, so none of the players are going to get bored in the next 30 seconds (I hope!).

And if something does happen:
DM: "Fine. 5 minutes into the ritual, 10 scrags burst out of the water, surprising everyone." *much rolling* "Caster, it's your turn. Want to finish the Ritual?"
Caster: "Hell no! I cast Magic Missile!"

Since an interrupted ritual costs no ritual components (PHB 299), there is very little lost.

Okay, so what happens if the reason you need Water Breathing is the giant cave-dwelling sea monster the party was hunting is getting away? What if the party is running away from some monsters or angry mobs and needs to take cover in the water? What if the BBEG puts cement shoes on the princess and throws her in the water while sending his Scrag minions after the party? What if the sahuagin BBEG is just firing up his doomsday device to sumberge the entire continent, the countdown of which is measured in rounds not minutes?

Or, even more likely, it'll go something like this:
Caster: "I cast Water Breathing on the party."
DM: "Okay, that takes 10 minutes, anyone want to do anything?"
Rogue: "How far is it to the other side?"
DM: "About 50 yards."
Rogue: "I look into the river. Do I see or think there might be anything waiting for us there?"
DM: "It seems pretty calm and serene."
Rogue: "Okay, guys, I'm going to go scout ahead. I go swim across."
Caster: "Huh?"
Fighter: "I better be not too far behind him, in case he does run into anything. I swim across as well."
DM: "What about your heavy armor?"
Fighter: "I store it in my Bag of Holding or I just take my time swimming. It's an empty river, right?"
Cleric: "I better go with them. There might be an ambush or something on the other side. They might need healing. Yell if you need some help, okay?"
(Everyone makes it to the other side)
Caster: "Er... how much longer?"
DM: "9 minutes."

Or, in the other scenario.
DM: "You see Scrags making their way toward the shore."
Caster: "Crap, I stop casting and cast Magic Missile."
(X rounds of combat later...)
Caster: "Okay, now that it's all clear I cast Water Breathing."
DM: "Okay, that takes 10 minutes, anyone want to do anything?"
Rogue: "How far is it to the other side?"
DM: "About 50 yards."
(repeat)


A lot of the justification for Rituals is that it somehow keeps the wizard from solving everything, but what about those who've never had that problem in 3.5? I've played with wizards and while their damage output was certainly greater, and my group's never really felt somehow irrelevant just because the caster has Dancing Lights ready to navigate through the cave.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I agree with Glug. Rituals are great for the DM, not just the players. The only Ritual I think should be shortened is Comprehend Languages, since the duration of the ritual makes it hard to prepare ahead of time for meeting with lizard men, or whatever you need it for.

See, I object to this, because in the game I'm playing, we use 'em all the time. Linked Portal is obvious, but here are some other uses:

- Water Breathing to investigate the bottom of a ship, looking for the "missing gold"

- Hand of Fate to select the most useful book out of a Library

- Phantom Steed to prepare for a quick get-away

- Eyes of Alarm to guard the camp for the night when out in highly dangerous country.

- Speak With Dead to find out who caused the slaughter of a temple.

I've found these very useful as a player. All you have to do is get your head out of the 3E mindset of "magic = insta-solution" and put a little more planning into your adventures. Honest, it works well.

EDIT:

Okay, so what happens if the reason you need Water Breathing is the giant cave-dwelling sea monster the party was hunting is getting away? What if the party is running away from some monsters or angry mobs and needs to take cover in the water? What if the BBEG puts cement shoes on the princess and throws her in the water while sending his Scrag minions after the party? What if the sahuagin BBEG is just firing up his doomsday device to sumberge the entire continent, the countdown of which is measured in rounds not minutes?

Then I guess you should find a non-magical solution, and smack yourself for not casting Water Breathing before hunting the sea monster, or fighting a Sahuagin. You can hold your breath, you know (Endurance).

Magic should not be the default solution to all your problems. Not only is it lazy, but it means that all your non-magic types have nothing to do when faced with a problem. Turns out, Fighters are great at swimming and holding their breath for a long time